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Political Point and Counterpoint


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#321
ShadySands

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I usually find it's the people who don't have a good grasp of things trying to ban or otherwise limit those things. I've said before that you don't necessarily need to be an expert on something to have a good idea about it but it doesn't hurt and usually stops the worst and most pointless ideas early on.


Edited by ShadySands, 23 March 2019 - 05:59 PM.


#322
smjjames

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I usually find it's the people who don't have a good grasp of things trying to ban or otherwise limited those things. I've said before that you don't necessarily need to be an expert on something to have a good idea about it but it doesn't hurt and usually stops the worst and most pointless ideas early on.

 

If only we could have US politicians (on both sides!) apply that to the gun control issue....

 

Republicans also need a good smack upside the head with a realitybat as far as that quote goes as far as Climate Change.



#323
Zoraptor

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Your examples are two anecdotes, one out of context and one personal from 6500 miles away. My examples are the people who live here and have expertise, and include people who would love to ban s/a wholesale if it were possible. Your local example is from someone who regularly controls rabbits and is the equivalent of saying that because someone is who is vaccinated hasn't caught measles vaccines aren't necessary. Ignorance and hubris are your friends, not logic.

 

As for the relevant applicability of the manifesto in the US, what's the US position on manifestos produced by foreigners who murdered 50 people in a terrorist act on their soil? Because that's the equivalent metric, not general free speech.

 

you really don't know anything 'bout logic, do you?  your appeal to authority is better than Gromnir's?  HA! is not how logic works.

 

You know what else uses an appeal to authority? Pro vaccine arguments! Only medical experts say it's necessary! Anti vaxxers say it isn't based on their child not getting measles. Who could be right, the experts or an anecdote?

 

The people who are actual experts need to have their expertise discredited by evidence, and an anecdotal 6500 miles away experience is not good evidence.

 

(1) (2)

 

(1) it was certainly directed to promote or incite imminent lawless action, it specifically included targets to hit in follow up attacks.

(2) the only argument is the likelihood of it happening.

 

And again, I think the censorship is stupid.



#324
213374U

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I usually find it's the people who don't have a good grasp of things trying to ban or otherwise limit those things. I've said before that you don't necessarily need to be an expert on something to have a good idea about it but it doesn't hurt and usually stops the worst and most pointless ideas early on.

 

The problem is that the moron in question not only struggles with tech matters -- he doesn't understand copyright, or even the legislation he pushes.

 

It's never a bad time to remind folks that a MEP makes ~6.5k €/mo (after tax).



#325
Gromnir

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I usually find it's the people who don't have a good grasp of things trying to ban or otherwise limit those things. I've said before that you don't necessarily need to be an expert on something to have a good idea about it but it doesn't hurt and usually stops the worst and most pointless ideas early on.

 

The problem is that the moron in question not only struggles with tech matters -- he doesn't understand copyright, or even the legislation he pushes.

 

It's never a bad time to remind folks that a MEP makes ~6.5k €/mo (after tax).

 

 

count on the expertise 'o elected officials, and their direct appointees, is gonna be a suspect proposition.  as we noted earlier, nowadays many politicians is hardly qualifying to be described as public servants.  such folks tend to have an agenda and they will then cherry pick other seeming genuine experts to support the outcome they already wished to achieve before getting input from folks who actual have knowledge.  sure, not all elected officials is selfish and shameless, but far too many is.  best to be suspicious and let unique individuals earn trust... and even then, still be suspicious is best course o' action.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#326
TrueNeutral

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Nor does Germany have a monopoly on politicians not understanding the internet.

It's not a truck that you dump stuff on, it's a series of pipes!

#327
Malcador

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https://www.nytimes....ler-report.html

Looks like nothing will come from it.

#328
Bartimaeus

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Based on the Attorney General's summarization, that does seem to be the case. From his statement, the general idea appears to be that there is insufficient evidence for the "collusion" charge (whatever that would actually be legally), and that because the "collusion" charge cannot be proven, it is also difficult to realistically pursue an obstruction of justice charge resulting from it, no matter what Trump's done that explicitly looks like exactly that. If there's not enough evidence, there's not enough evidence. So...vote in a year and a half. It does beg the question of why Trump has been acting so insanely guilty over the past two years (all starting with begging for Comey's loyalty and to close any investigation into him, then firing him when he refused and publicly explaining that it was because of "the Russia thing"). Hoping we get some explanation of that here sooner or later.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 24 March 2019 - 12:39 PM.


#329
Gromnir

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media and politicians has done a terrible job educating folks regarding what mueller were seeming trying to find and likely to find.

 

https://forums.obsid...ance/?p=2141932

 

legal insufficient for conspiracy doesn't surprise us, but am hopeful we get full report to see the extent to which trump attempted to obstruct, whether is enough to get convictions or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps

 

zor observation:
 
(1) it was certainly directed to promote or incite imminent lawless action, it specifically included targets to hit in follow up attacks.
 
(2) the only argument is the likelihood of it happening.
 
end
 
and still with the poor reading comprehension.  sheesh.  is not just likelihood o' happening.  is likelihood successful incitement will happen essential immediate 'pon reading. we stressed imminent multiple times.
 
manifesto censorship is an auto-fail for US government in every example to come before courts, and there has been more than one.  imagine a successful situation is difficult as it likely requires a degree o' viewpoint discrimination, which is particular difficult for government to pull off successful.  some kinda religious cult leader exhorting his followers to immediate violence via an internet manifesto posting? might result in allowable censorship, but is doubly difficult to achieve such censorship 'cause is focusing not just on possible impact o' message, but necessitates differentiation 'cause o' kind and quality o' message. 

Edited by Gromnir, 24 March 2019 - 01:08 PM.

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#330
smjjames

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media and politicians has done a terrible job educating folks regarding what mueller were seeming trying to find and likely to find.

 

https://forums.obsid...ance/?p=2141932

 

legal insufficient for conspiracy doesn't surprise us, but am hopeful we get full report to see the extent to which trump attempted to obstruct, whether is enough to get convictions or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It doesn't help that Trump keeps screaming NO COLLUSION as if it were a legal definition.

 

@Bartimaeus: I can certainly believe that the Trump campaign blundered into Russias hands without some sort of agreement or pact, but as you said, theres still too many unanswered questions.



#331
Zoraptor

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I'd imagine a lot of people convinced of Trump's guilt will be hoping that the AG being a Trump pick has lead to some... charitable interpretations for him in the summary.

 

And it will be interesting to see the reaction of the Sharebluers who have been insisting Mueller would be dragging Trump from the White House in chains at the end of his investigation.



#332
smjjames

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Sharebluers?

 

Anyways, the Democrats are asking for the full report along with the evidence (i'd certainly like to see what evidence exonerates Trump from willfully/wittingly cooperating with Russia or any other campaign staff and family members doing that), so....



#333
Sarex

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https://sputniknews....eration-memory/

 

https://balkaninsigh...-of-yugoslavia/


Edited by Sarex, 24 March 2019 - 01:36 PM.


#334
Gfted1

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Perhaps Shareblue Media.



#335
Malcador

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I'd imagine a lot of people convinced of Trump's guilt will be hoping that the AG being a Trump pick has lead to some... charitable interpretations for him in the summary.

 

And it will be interesting to see the reaction of the Sharebluers who have been insisting Mueller would be dragging Trump from the White House in chains at the end of his investigation.

 

Likewise Mueller and his team will become an honorable group of people to Trump folk.  Is always funny to see, we have the same going on in Canada. 2 MPs that are causing trouble for Trudeau are being lionized by the opposition for being beacons of integrity :lol:


Edited by Malcador, 24 March 2019 - 01:44 PM.


#336
Zoraptor

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Would be even more funny/ ironic if both those MPs causing trouble for Mr Progressive were women and one was a native canadian too.

 

Sharebluers?

 

'Correct the Record' is probably still better known, but it's officially defunct. Shareblue (same one gfted linked to, same guy involved at the top) uses vote manipulation in places like reddit extensively to give anti Trump news the megaphone treatment. They were most obvious when Hillary had her fainting moment on the campaign trail, as all their boosted content disappeared for a day since they had no prepared talking points.

 

i'd certainly like to see what evidence exonerates Trump from willfully/wittingly cooperating with Russia or any other campaign staff and family members doing that

 

 

I think everyone who isn't ideologically committed to one side would like to see the evidence. I'm not expecting literal exoneration personally, but something more similar to the justification for not prosecuting Hillary for her server faux pas; but I always doubted Trump himself was directly involved anyway.



#337
Malcador

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Would be even more funny/ ironic if both those MPs causing trouble for Mr Progressive were women and one was a native canadian too.


I guess so, seems they are getting the same treatment a male MP would by doing the same thing. Is a bit stupid system to have the AG and a minister in one person as it invites this kind of thing, but also in case of Raybould it's curious what she counts as pressure - well that people will see what they want to with that when she eventually gets around to saying all.

This is also some party games nonsense going on with them, I suspect.

#338
Gromnir

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we were never convinced o' conspiracy to rig an election.

 

https://forums.obsid...rt-v/?p=1911610

 

even so, am thinking the investigation were warranted 'cause o' possible obstruction, and 'cause regardless o' law, the scope o' trump campaign involvement with russia deserves to be viewed open and naked. 

 

corruption isn't always subject to prosecution, and incompetence rare is.  nevertheless, as the President holds public office, am thinking the people should get a chance to ask questions.

 

now as to the ny stuff... have always thought that is where trump is more vulnerable.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#339
Katphood

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With ISIS being defeated and the story with the Mueller probe coming to an abrupt end, can we turn this thread into 'The Ice Cream Thread'?! There is not much on the news save for reportrs on natural disasters and shootings.

I call dibs on the first post:



#340
Gorth

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Need a bit of foreign policy stuff to take peoples minds off the Mueller report?

 

Russian troops arriving in Venezuela.

 

https://www.bbc.com/...merica-47688711






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