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nemesis205bw

The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul

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 I also think people are generally under-valuing initiative right now and we should wait until it gets balanced a little better. Currently it's value is being severely undercut by a bug which causes the player party get a free round in practically every combat, as when combat begins you start in a round with you and only a few enemies that initiated combat with you. The game also seems to be giving a free "surprise" round when you start combat from stealth. Add to this that a lot of enemies seems to have very high initiative, such that even my characters with heavy armor, modals, two-handed and 3 DEX are still going before them.

 

I think if they buff enemy initiative a bit, fix the free round bug, and perhaps only give a 20% initiative bonus for starting from stealth people will change their tune. I have already had 1-2 encounters that punished my lack of initiative. Eating an entire room full of enemy attacks left 2 of my back-line dead before I had even self-buffed. Thankfully, I had a paladin rez handy.

 

Limiting char's to 1 free action/turn and adding some initiative to cast times would also help bring casters in-line, as they would be vulnerable to low-initiative enemies removing concentration and interrupting the cast.

 

I also like the idea of adding an extra attack to light weapons, as that would make one-handed builds more viable. 1 light weapon would get 2/attacks, dual wielding with 2 light would get another, so 3 attacks.

 

While the things you mentioned will buff dex I don't think it will be nearly enough. Especially harder fights tend to last a long time and the longer the fight is the less your initiative matters. As it is I don't really see the point of not dumping dex in favor of the other stats. A character with high might and low dex should hit harder but less often, and vice versa. Basically dex should be changed to also affect how often the characters turn happens.

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I mean once you do that you're making it a direct port of RTWP.

 

Now if they want to stick with rounds maybe they will need some sort of action point system where each AP has some sort of initiative value, that will lead to other balance issues in itself though.

 

Now the thing is, dex DOESN'T have to be the best stat, it will take a different mindset but I mean it's okay to not have it be crazy good.

 

The thing I'm most worried about is the fact that TTK is pretty high. Turn based will be longer regardless but sometimes it's just ridiculous.

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I mean once you do that you're making it a direct port of RTWP.

 

...

From my point of view it should be a direct port as much as possible.

Attributes, skills, spells and whatever should have the same purpose/function as in RTWP.

 

Of course there have to be made adjustment, but the basic idea should be kept.

I believe the power/stamina system Dead Inside suggested is the way to go, at least worth investigating.

Edited by Primator

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I just want something where battles don't take days to complete, I'll be happy with what ever they decide as long as it's fun.

 

I'd just like them to go really crazy with it so it's like we have alms 2 separate games. It'd be kind of nice to have builds be awesome in turn based that aren't so good in RTWP imo I just want more ways to experience the game!

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What about reducing health overall? This would shorten the combat AND make initiative more valuable. In every turn-based game I have ever played initiative is perhaps the most consistently powerful stat. If battles were quicker overall, it would make it's significance much more prominent.

 

 

 

I mean once you do that you're making it a direct port of RTWP.

...

From my point of view it should be a direct port as much as possible.

Attributes, skills, spells and whatever should have the same purpose/function as in RTWP.

 

Of course there have to be made adjustment, but the basic idea should be kept.

I believe the power/stamina system Dead Inside suggested is the way to go, at least worth investigating.

 

 

I don't want a direct port. I've played over 400hrs of POE 2 already and I am enjoying builds and weapons that are simply not very good in RTWP. For instance, with rounds accurate wounding shot procs its DOT damage right away, adding flat dmg to the strike. Two-handed weapons are far more viable, as you can still perform just as many actions as a dual-wielder, and can react to combat just as well. With a barb wielding Amra, you get carnage, Amra area damage on crit, and raw dmg weapon modal all adding flat damage to you strike. 

 

In RTWP, pretty much every melee dual-wields. There are some builds/weapons where 2-handed is viable, but its pretty niche. In fact, even without the 30% action speed bonus or the 15% from talents, dual-wielding still feels more powerful than two-handed in turn-based. If those talents go back, there will be no question and we will go back to the SAME builds/items being powerful. 

 

However, if we go to a non-rounds system where fast characters act more, then initiative absolutely cannot be tied to action speed, as it will make action speed the absolute best and most powerful stat in the game. Initiative would have to be tied to something else. 

Edited by hansbricks12

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In RTWP, pretty much every melee dual-wields. There are some builds/weapons where 2-handed is viable, but its pretty niche. In fact, even without the 30% action speed bonus or the 15% from talents, dual-wielding still feels more powerful than two-handed in turn-based. If those talents go back, there will be no question and we will go back to the SAME builds/items being powerful. 

 

However, if we go to a non-rounds system where fast characters act more, then initiative absolutely cannot be tied to action speed, as it will make action speed the absolute best and most powerful stat in the game. Initiative would have to be tied to something else.

 

I don’t think pretty much every melee damage focused character dual wields. That’s certainly not what I would get from reading the builds forum at this point. It used to be true that dual wielding was clearly superior to other styles, but not because of action speed, but rather because of full attack mechanics. Now two-handed and dual wield are both good, and the choice is more about the specific skills and uniques you want to build around.

 

That said, I agree with your last point. If Obsidian goes with an action point system, I propose that initiative be tied to resolve. Flavor it as characters having the steeliest nerves being able to react fastest. This has the advantage of not overloading dexterity with two powerful effects and increasing the number of builds that value resolve.

 

I mean once you do that you're making it a direct port of RTWP.

Now if they want to stick with rounds maybe they will need some sort of action point system where each AP has some sort of initiative value, that will lead to other balance issues in itself though.

Now the thing is, dex DOESN'T have to be the best stat, it will take a different mindset but I mean it's okay to not have it be crazy good.

The thing I'm most worried about is the fact that TTK is pretty high. Turn based will be longer regardless but sometimes it's just ridiculous.

I’m posting in response to your points in general, here and in other threads, not just in response to the quoted post.

 

First, I’m not sure dex is some kind of god stat in RTwP. Surely most characters that are interested in dealing damage don’t typically dump dex, but there are tanks and support builds with low dex that do fine. And compared to might, perception and intellect as damage stats, dex only comes up as the most important on certain builds. DoT builds strongly prefer might and intellect over dexterity and spellcasters have a lot of reason to prioritize might. Only weapon builds with renewable resources really are heavily pushed towards dexterity. If you ask most players about a god stat, probably the typical answer would be perception. So the situation in the RTwP mode is already quite nuanced and balanced.

 

Now, it’s important to distinguish between dexterity and action speed. Action speed is much more important than dexterity, since dex only contributes partially to the total action economy. There are builds that stack lots of action speed to become very powerful, but I hardly think those are the only strong builds, or even the strongest. Deleterious alactrity is a strong tool in the wizard’s kit, but it’s not the root of their effectiveness, and they’d still be a strong contender for the best overall class without it (remember that it was buffed to add action speed and wizards were still amazing before that). So, if action speed suddenly becomes unimportant, that won’t so much bring up other builds that had previously been weak as it will bring down many, many builds and items that relied on an action economy advantage to be strong.

 

Second, you keep maintaining that a dynamic turn system with no rounds, where characters get a certain number of actions dependent on their speed, will be just the same as RTwP with pause enabled at the end of each character’s turn. This is a hyperbolic statement that really harms your overall argument. Turn-based play will still be completely different, since each action resolves one at a time, and players can carefully consider every move, spell or attack. A final fantasy X system in deadfire would play nothing like RTwP at all; the only similarity, in fact, compared to the current system of discrete rounds, would be the presence of action speed. Constantly asserting this just makes it seem like you’re militating against characters being able to go fast.

 

In fact, there is good reason to worry about action speed becoming too important in a direct translation, but that’s precisely because turn based is so different. In RTwP, fast characters can take a lot more actions, but because of human limitations in micromanagement a lot of their actions aren’t used perfectly efficiently. Turn-based allows for much more efficient play from most players, so the advantage of taking more actions will probably be much more apparent when each action can be more meaningful. But that doesn’t we have to do away with action speed completely: simply too much of the game is balanced around it. In RtWP, a fast character can go three times as fast as a slow character pretty easily. The difference in turn-based doesn’t need to be that pronounced. Action speed could easily be nerfed in turn-based if it ends up too powerful.

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