Dereth Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Spoilers here if you haven't finished Kotor 1 (like there's someone here who hasn't ) I have to say that I was pretty disappointed with the way evil was handled in Kotor 1 and I've seen plenty of posts from other people that seem to agree with me. My character seemed more like Malak than Revan. I felt more like a stupid brute rather than the master tactician that won the Mandalorian wars. The only Dark dialogue choice that fit my idea of what an evil, intelligent, and subtle Sith might do would be when you can encourage Zaalbar to kill the slavers who put the Wookie down. That's my idea of a Dark Lord. He would only resort to killing someone himself when he had no other choice instead prefering to subtly control others to carry out his wishes. I mean what's more evil, killing someone or getting they're best friend to kill them? Obviously the latter, since it might also gain you an ally that you can use to further carry out your goals. Not only that, but you could also betray said friend by going to the authorities. It's more evil to mess with people heads to use them than to outright kill them. Why do something yourself when someone else can do it just as well? I really hope the dark side is better concieved in the sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Torment certainly had it's painful and evil choices. I hope KOTOR:TSL will as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tingeling Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Whatever. As long as I can force-fry Gizka, I don't care either way. "McDonald's taste damn good. I'd rtahe reat their wonderful food then the poisonous junk you server in your house that's for sure. What's funny is I'm not fat. In fact, I'm skinny. Though I am as healthy as cna be. Outside of being very ugly, and the common cold once in the blue moon I simply don't get sick." - Volourn, Slayer of Yrkoon! "I want a Lightsaber named Mr. Zappy" -- Darque "I'm going to call mine Darque. Then I can turn Darque on anytime I want." -- GhostofAnakin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'd personally like to see the Ultima/Morrowind approach to NPC killing. Make every NPC in the game killable. However, make repercussions. Attacking anyone in sight of another person brings guards and others turning on you. You develop a negative reputation and people will run from you, or attack you. Party members will either support the turn to the darkside, turn on you, or leave you. When you're frustrated and want to force lightning an entire city of NPCs, go to town. Then reload the game, because you're not going anywhere after that. I believe that by having negative repercussions for the actions, it's more effective that not allowing it. It makes you WANT to fry everyone that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 sneaky evil is tough to write when you is doing with insular and discreet dialogue encounters. a sneaky fellow probably gots a brilliant plan that only becomes obvious late in story. you thought he was helping you and it turns out that all along he was setting you up to take the fall... that kinda thing. how you gonna write that? you can write the plan kinda thing in a book or movie script, but in a game where the player chooses dialogue options... how you get the player to follow the script w/o taking control from him? am guessing that you could insert a Diabolical Plan series o' dialogues into the game... put "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torias Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I do think "diabolical plan" dialogue options would rock though... also, Kotor did the romeo and juliet evil resolution pretty well... that had me laughing with evil glee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The only Dark dialogue choice that fit my idea of what an evil, intelligent, and subtle Sith might do would be when you can encourage Zaalbar to kill the slavers who put the Wookie down. The other truly dark act on Kashyyyk was when you 'corrupted' Matton after convicing him to murder Eli. Welcome to the Dark Side, my children. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The only Dark dialogue choice that fit my idea of what an evil, intelligent, and subtle Sith might do would be when you can encourage Zaalbar to kill the slavers who put the Wookie down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The only Dark dialogue choice that fit my idea of what an evil, intelligent, and subtle Sith might do would be when you can encourage Zaalbar to kill the slavers who put the Wookie down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Make every NPC in the game killable. Why ?!? Why is everybody so obsessed with killing NPCs ?!? Who cares ?!? What's that got to do with anything ?!? I don't get it. Every thread about 'freedom' and 'evil' always end up with 'can i kill all the NPCs' ?!? What the heck is that ?!? Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indalecio Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 People complain about the level of thuggish evil present, yet, more often than not, just want to kill NPCs. The mind boggles. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 it does seem that the folks that play evil most often simply want to lord it over those who has less power than them... and considering the traditional game design concept that you should be able to beat any opponent you meet, that is essentially everybody. 'course, there haven't been many options for evil. is tough to say that folks wouldn't like more subtle forms o' evil if all we got is almost random encounters where you gets the opportunity to knock some old lady down and take her purse, or after you has done the saved-the-day thing, you hand folks a bill and then threaten to start eating babies if you ain't paid forthwith. Gromnir not play evil, but even we admit that these is kinda lame. however, we might be interested to see what a developer could do with our diabolical plan notion... would have to be largely tangential or supplemental to main plot, and if you want to be compelling, the person making the diabolical plan would largely be unaware as to how plan would turn out til late in game... which is kinda odd, but amn thinking that it is a notion worth considering... if only to give another option. look how popular the romances was... a story w/i a story. the diabolical plan would give evil characters their own special romance option as it were. would also give an option for characters to be evil in a slightly different, if more controlled manner. this was just an off the cuff notion... no doubt folks have better ideas, and we would like to hear 'em... is just that folks usually complain 'bout the present evil options w/o considering how a developer might do different. people is all for better schools until you tell 'em that somebody is gonna have to pay for better schools. so, come up with ideas on how to pay for the idea o' better evil. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I definitely agree that something needs to be done to make evil more attractive, as it were. The thuggish approach to the Dark Side in KOTOR I is what kept me from ever playing the game through as a DS Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorwen Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I think they need to leave the thug approach in. They just need to add a non-thug approach as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdy-worker 1138 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I definitely agree that something needs to be done to make evil more attractive, as it were. The thuggish approach to the Dark Side in KOTOR I is what kept me from ever playing the game through as a DS Jedi. Funny thing is that the more accurate evil are portraitet,the less enjoyment the pro-evil players seems to take from it,it seems like they take great pleasure in playing medium/light evil and wear the black cloathes but rarely likes the truly evil options(like selling darkkon as a slave in Torment and soforth). In the end i think it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indalecio Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 "You're not quite evil enough. You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil, just one calorie, not evil enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil.E Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The first time I played through the game I thought I could turn Juhani back to the darkside by giving her the push she needed to kill Xor. Thankfully KOTOR2 will have NPC party members alignments affected by my evil. there's nothing better than having a party of loyal minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salsabettis Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Some of the evil options in KoTOR were entertaining at first, but they did get old pretty quick. You can only rob people and threaten them so many times before it is boring. Perhaps this is why I have only played DS once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Let's travel back to Korriban. HK-47 comes strolling into Dustil's room with a blaster pointed at Dustil's head. He explains that Carth ordered HK to kill Dustil on the basis that he wouldn't want "some idiot Sith son of his" running around anymore. Then arrange for Carth to walk into the room at the same moment. You've planted enough seeds of distrust, that only one of the two are walking out of the room alive. The survivor is left feeling betrayed, and angry. They become putty in your hands, as you use them as a tool of destruction aimed at Saul. That's the kind of stuff I want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 That's the kind of stuff I want to see. I hear you. Personally, I've always thought that Kandon Ark's manipulation of Mission (convincing her to betray Gadon), was worthy of big time Bad Ass-Dastardly-Diabolical brownie points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadreak Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I want to kill children.. can I kill children? I also want to be a porno star. Why? Because watching pornography makes you evil and you go to hell. Don't believe me? Well there: http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm On serious note, I agree with everything that people already said, but I am not sure if developers listen/care what we are saying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 We don't get a whole lot of feedback, but we are getting feedback from the devs. They have been upfront, and let us know what they are willing to disclose, and what they aren't. I think the dev team does care. However, they game still has to get approval from LucasArts on some level, and I wager that means shooting for a Teen rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nartwak Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 they game still has to get approval from LucasArts on some level, Yeah, a few levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadreak Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 We don't get a whole lot of feedback, but we are getting feedback from the devs. They have been upfront, and let us know what they are willing to disclose, and what they aren't. I think the dev team does care. However, they game still has to get approval from LucasArts on some level, and I wager that means shooting for a Teen rating. Argh yeah, I forgot.. Lucas Arts. Forget about really evil characters then :/ Oh well, guess evil-light is better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I rather have nothing. Next game please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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