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SPOILERS About the end


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#61
Wormerine

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The Gods and this Metaphysics too often began appear in the plot in order to inflate the importance of everything and everyone. Most of these stories are actually empty and do not carry any meaning = real influence on the game world.
Pillars of Eternity is good without it. And all this pouting importance about the gods only harms the universe.


On some basic level I somewhat agree with you - I don’t think Deadfire handled grand universe changing story well. More time is given to a conflict in the Deadfire - it’s more fleshed out, characters in game care more about it. The destruction of the wheel is somewhat damaging as it makes the central conflict of the game somewhat irrelevant. Now, what I just say is not quite true - conflict in the Deadfire ties to ways you can influence Eothas. But I don’t think it works as well as it could/should have.

I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.
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#62
uuuhhii

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There is something which I have been curious about, but it is something that hasn't been explained fully as far as I know - there seem to be soul degradation in process - they split into pieces and eventually wear out into nothingness (Rymgrand's entrophy). It doesn't seem like new souls are being born. Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live. 

 

From PoE2's story i got the impression that the degradation was caused by the gods syphoning small chunks of essence from reincarnating souls (thus fracturing the souls) instead of being a natural occurrence, or perhaps it was already a part of the natural reincarnation cycle and the creation of the Wheel worsened it. In any case, we will probably not now for sure until PoE3 is released.

 

soul break down was definitely a thing before the gods

the place rymrgand rule now existed before rymrgand

it was likely the inspiration of wtw religion and rymrgand in the first place

and thaos did mention soul will become dust eventually

if it was caused by existence of gods it was unlikely he will mention it

and magic exist before gods too

so there are soul fragment everywhere before gods


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#63
Khagmas

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I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.

 

That is what I meant, in fact, because the main plot and everything else should not revolve around this Gods - because they stories is not the main story, it is only knowledge about the world of Eora.

I hope that without The Wheel they will have to go into the background and they will not get into the Eora's life without serious necessary.

Where is Naasitaq? Is it not on the Archipelago? Instead of the next quest about the Gods could tell us about the life of this region. That's the problem.

Naasitaq is a remote southern island nation, located in the Deadfire Archipelago. Many boreal dwarves and aumaua share the rocky tundra and snow-covered forests with far-roaming caravan elves who drift near the shoreline. Naasitaq is the biggest and most stable nation around. Various nations and empires fight over the islands, to the east of which are sea monsters that invariably annihilate any ships that attempt to go exploring (many of them dwarven).

Where is it in game?

The gods have to go into the background, because of this, there is small place in the story for really important things. That is why Metaphysics in this game should sink into oblivion.

Metaphysics destroys resources for more mundane and interesting stories, inflates empty stories about gods to the Epic level, they really mean nothing. The foundation of these stories is a Engwithans lie, it's no more does not cause awe.
 

Need make Pillars of Eternity Great Again!



#64
uuuhhii

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I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.

 

That is what I meant, in fact, because the main plot and everything else should not revolve around this Gods - because they stories is not the main story, it is only knowledge about the world of Eora.

I hope that without The Wheel they will have to go into the background and they will not get into the Eora's life without serious necessary.

Where is Naasitaq? Is it not on the Archipelago? Instead of the next quest about the Gods could tell us about the life of this region. That's the problem.

Naasitaq is a remote southern island nation, located in the Deadfire Archipelago. Many boreal dwarves and aumaua share the rocky tundra and snow-covered forests with far-roaming caravan elves who drift near the shoreline. Naasitaq is the biggest and most stable nation around. Various nations and empires fight over the islands, to the east of which are sea monsters that invariably annihilate any ships that attempt to go exploring (many of them dwarven).

Where is it in game?

The gods have to go into the background, because of this, there is small place in the story for really important things. That is why Metaphysics in this game should sink into oblivion.

Metaphysics destroys resources for more mundane and interesting stories, inflates empty stories about gods to the Epic level, they really mean nothing. The foundation of these stories is a Engwithans lie, it's no more does not cause awe.
 

Need make Pillars of Eternity Great Again!

 

the problem is too many players expect high stake for main story

most commonly save the world from total destruction

poe1 tried relatively low stake with bleak and sad environment and atmosphere

deadfire tried to find a better way to deal with the problem by showing gods arguing and make main character not much of a chosen one

but it still suffer from common problem of similar setting

a crisis threaten to destroy the world but player can still waste month to complete all the side stuff

a ending that players choice will change the world forever but still have to be compatible with whatever the sequel will made up

similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg


Edited by uuuhhii, 11 January 2019 - 01:07 AM.

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#65
Khagmas

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similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg

 

Totally agree! High stakes = epic fails.



#66
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is.

 
coping with inevitability deffo a theme which could have reaped some serious rewards. i appreciate you had the apocalyptic ranting of xoti and the dawnstars, but they werent always the easiest folk to take seriously.
 
theres one conversation with maia which really stayed with me - the one where she compares knowing eothas' is gonna succeed to knowing one of her marks is somehow destined to die. some of paul kirschs best work there imo, sold well by marisha ray. perhaps theme couldve permeated more of the deadfire.
 
potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games. 
 
tho i wouldve been up for a bit more widespread hopelessness. not all of us cure fans grow out of that phase.
 
notion of random **** going on in shadow of apocalypse - fiddling while rome burns, why worry about what u cant change etc - not necessarily a bad one. have worked at the death of enough contracts, and there more than enough folk who repeat the same old conflicts despite obsolescence of such. dunno how ud convey such a theme in rpg without making ur mc cassandra and engendering frustration with 90% of npcs tho. might not be fun experience.
 
dont have biggest dog in fight regarding scale of conflict. have preference for low level d&d and campaigns of that flavour, but as we now in 3rd act of series which has set out stall by fking about with gods and souls, it would feel a bit odd to take foot off pedal now.
 

the problem is too many players expect high stake for main story
most commonly save the world from total destruction
poe1 tried relatively low stake with bleak and sad environment and atmosphere
deadfire tried to find a better way to deal with the problem by showing gods arguing and make main character not much of a chosen one
but it still suffer from common problem of similar setting
a crisis threaten to destroy the world but player can still waste month to complete all the side stuff
a ending that players choice will change the world forever but still have to be compatible with whatever the sequel will made up
similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg

 
ye, crpg genre has to pay countless debts now - esp high fantasy settings. ambitions and expectations running wild, and even when theyre met, is no guarantee of good work or money in the bank. makes me glad to have no great ambition beyond talking rubbish, having a roof over my head, and dying in a bed rather than a car crash.
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#67
house2fly

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As far as meaning, the gods have always been analogous to real-world societal structures and the powerful in general. In this context, the fact that Woedica(the villain of the first game) is palling around with the other gods like she's one of the gang is a statement about the nature of the elite. The gods' petty squabbling and frequent asking of the Watcher's opinion on matters is a reminder that for all their grandeur they are still only human- not primal and unknowable, therefore not unchangeable or (possibly) undefeatable. You can see where the analogy goes from here, with the Wheel being the way the gods maintain their power by literally feeding on the common people, and the necessity of a whole new system being built rather than simply casting them down, but basically it's the same ideas as the faction quests (what kind of society should we have?) presented as high fantasy. I'm not sure what inherent worth Naasitaq has as a concept that means it would have been prima facie more meaningful than the main quest we have
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#68
Tagaziel

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potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games.


I actually liked the fact that your actions don't matter to Eothas. He's a natural disaster, an act of god. Your actions don't matter in the face of Eothas any more than they do in the face of an earthquake or a tsunami.

He just happens.
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#69
Cartoons Plural

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potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games.


I actually liked the fact that your actions don't matter to Eothas. He's a natural disaster, an act of god. Your actions don't matter in the face of Eothas any more than they do in the face of an earthquake or a tsunami.

He just happens.

 

 

yeah seems like there's this idea that there's a stone tablet inscribed with rules about how your player character has to be able to have agency over the entire game-world is honestly just trying to limit potential artistic statements with arbitrary market rules. probably some kind of rigid game design academia leaking out into folk wisdom

 

i think the inevitability and unstoppable nature of eothas and the disruptive and permanent change he brings is at least partly a metaphor for climate change


Edited by Cartoons Plural, 18 January 2019 - 04:58 PM.





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