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SPOILERS About the end


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#41
Nssheepster

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo. Then funneled again, and again, until it gets into the Deadfire area, but since so many souls are being shuffled along to that area, the adra is more full and thus 'luminous'.

 

It might just be that pre-engwithans, all adra glowed proportionate to how many people died nearby in a certain time frame.

 

Also, never had this confirmed I don't think... Adra has been referred to as 'roots', roots of the world... Does that mean all adra is connected physically, or through the in between, or is it just fanciful speaking and adra isn't connected to other adra at all? I get the impression there is a connection, and the glimpse of the in between suggests that... But I don't recall if we see it confirmed by a god, engwithan... Or a dev.



#42
uuuhhii

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo. Then funneled again, and again, until it gets into the Deadfire area, but since so many souls are being shuffled along to that area, the adra is more full and thus 'luminous'.

 

It might just be that pre-engwithans, all adra glowed proportionate to how many people died nearby in a certain time frame.

 

Also, never had this confirmed I don't think... Adra has been referred to as 'roots', roots of the world... Does that mean all adra is connected physically, or through the in between, or is it just fanciful speaking and adra isn't connected to other adra at all? I get the impression there is a connection, and the glimpse of the in between suggests that... But I don't recall if we see it confirmed by a god, engwithan... Or a dev.

presumed similar theories

what ever eothas destroyed deep beneath the earth if player convince eothas to end eora

maybe the core of adra before engwithan changes

and part of its function rerouted to ukaizo

and adra are the only thing exist in both the here and the beyond(really hate these weird names in poe)

so it was not just material


Edited by uuuhhii, 08 January 2019 - 02:23 AM.


#43
InsaneCommander

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones. :facepalm:


Edited by InsaneCommander, 08 January 2019 - 04:09 AM.


#44
house2fly

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Luminous adra never really did get explained that I remember, but luminous adra near the Wheel as opposed to the sluggish/dead adra in the Dyrwood(I recall there did seem to be some instances of growth there) makes some intuitive sense as a connection.

 

We need someone from the dev team to drop some hints about the true nature of luminous adra, and where some explanation might be found in the game itself. *performs alex scokel summoning ritual*



#45
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I'm summoned by the mere mention of my name. Like Beetlejuice, but thrice as self-absorbed.

 

I don't believe Luminous adra a result of the Engwithans' construction of the Wheel. IIRC, the preponderance of it at Ukaizo is what attracted the Engwithans there, too. 

 

This is not my area of expertise, but I believe that the difference between luminous adra and non-luminous adra is that the luminous version holds a significant charge (as opposed to normal adra, which is primarily a conductor). 

 

This is more a Josh question. Feel free to send him an ask on tumblr.


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#46
Nssheepster

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones. :facepalm:

 

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.


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#47
InsaneCommander

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones. :facepalm:

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.

 

But the memories are not lost. The Watcher awakened many lives later and remembered the time of the inquisition.


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#48
OEI_Alex

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I wonder if maybe 'Luminous' Adra didn't exist before hand. If the 'light' of the luminous adra only exists because the adra near Ukaizo is forced to contain more souls than elsewhere. IE, someone dies, their soul goes to the NEAREST adra, then gets funneled through that adra into adra closer to Ukaizo.

 

In other words, there must be lots of Vailians collecting Adra with the souls of their deceased family and friends, using that essence and preventing the resurrection of their loved ones. :facepalm:

I mean, memories are what make us who we are, so technically, the second your memories are lost you cease to exist, just leaving unnamed, unclaimed essence behind.

 

So it's more akin to them profiting off the corpses of their loved ones, not their loved ones themselves.

 

But the memories are not lost. The Watcher awakened many lives later and remembered the time of the inquisition.

 

 

Memories exist within reincarnated souls, as seen in the Watcher and Aloth. This includes in non-Awakened souls - it's just that in Awakened souls, the process that keeps the memories of past reincarnations "locked away" for lack of a better term has failed. 

 

That said, souls that aren't reincarnated - that are within adra that is consumed by, say, being harvested and smoked or ground up for bathwater - that's a whole different story, right?


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#49
house2fly

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*standing in my bathtub* knee deep in the dead
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#50
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Memories exist within reincarnated souls, as seen in the Watcher and Aloth. This includes in non-Awakened souls - it's just that in Awakened souls, the process that keeps the memories of past reincarnations "locked away" for lack of a better term has failed. 

 

That said, souls that aren't reincarnated - that are within adra that is consumed by, say, being harvested and smoked or ground up for bathwater - that's a whole different story, right?

 

 

So, I guess it is a similar mechanism as when you decide to strengthen Dyrwood with the hollowborn souls.


Edited by Pus-in-Boots, 09 January 2019 - 02:57 AM.


#51
Fredward

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So predating the Engwithans we have Eora, adra (right?) and a natural soul cycle. Souls are energy that when embodied can have thoughts/experiences/personalities etc and these can either strengthen the soul or degrade it. In this sense it's a nice, healthy self-contained system into recycling. An implication here is that it really is self-contained, the energy/souls on Eora is what it's got, there isn't someone or something frequently creating it out of nothing and injecting it into the system. The Engwithans got a solid handle on how stuff works and got really bummed about there not being a great architect or engineer or own personal god to supply them a raison d'etre, finding a natural cycle to be too impersonal, too incidental of an explanation they decided that the best way to fix this existential angst is "Us! But MOAR!" And so the gods. Natural, working system vs ravenous overexploitation and the dangers thereof in the name of some abstract human need recurs elsewhere and invites some obvious parallels. 

 

SSS show what the Wheel is to the gods now, I think. Galawain is your crazy survivalist uncle living in a shack in the woods but beneath the rickety shack he has a blast proof bunker with a generator. Kazuwari is the whole reincarnation cycle writ small, you can even call him out on this that he cycles the souls in Kazuwari and the struggles strengthen them meaning they get to be better snacks for him. You can eat more from a fat soul than a weak one and still have it be functional for recycling. And he'll even mention the Watcher would make a good snack based off what their soul has been through. It's easy to upscale this to the whole system, right? He called my Watcher a parasite for eating the souls when the opportunity arose and that's particularly funny since the gods so eloquently display that the only difference between a parasite and the gods is scale. We already know the gods have redundancies in the form of "In case of emergency break Godlike" but Galawain was being extra prepped which explains why he gets so very pissy despite being all about that seeking slaying and surviving supposedly. One interesting thing to consider is whether the natural cycle would have resulted in the continuity/cohesiveness of a soul through time as the current system has or whether that's a byproduct of the gods prepping the dinner table.

 

All of the gods are implicated passively in this out of necessity and most are active in this system which's only goal now is self-perpetuation. Berath's insistence on everything having an end is necessary because otherwise the gods can't eat, when Magran or Galawain throw down a challenge it's because either you die and they get an early lunch or you become more tasty later, when Wael obscures he ensures the venality of the system isn't common knowledge, when Hylea is all "OOOoooohhh humans cute!" she helps them thrive and by thriving they make for a better crop. Since they really do seem to just be upscaled humans I have zero doubt that they're not this honest with themselves, possibly they can't be this honest with themselves, and they've constructed a bunch of narratives about how they're actually helping, why what they're doing is necessary and actually good and the system they benefit from is what's best for everyone and not just fundamentally and inescapably self-serving. This may or may not also double for social commentary wrt certain systems.


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#52
Khagmas

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Metaphysics will destroy you, Obsidians.

The next time you decide to write an interesting story, think first of all about of player's Role-Play, not about metaphysical garbage. GL.



 


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#53
Wormerine

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@Fredward when you put it like that... Eothas smashing the wheel and killing bunch of stuff in the process does seem like a noble thing to do... he doesn’t really get to benefit from it at all.

#54
InsaneCommander

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So predating the Engwithans we have Eora, adra (right?) and a natural soul cycle. Souls are energy that when embodied can have thoughts/experiences/personalities etc and these can either strengthen the soul or degrade it. In this sense it's a nice, healthy self-contained system into recycling. An implication here is that it really is self-contained, the energy/souls on Eora is what it's got, there isn't someone or something frequently creating it out of nothing and injecting it into the system.

 

Forgotten Sanctum spoilers:

 

Spoiler


#55
house2fly

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Metaphysics will destroy you, Obsidians.

The next time you decide to write an interesting story, think first of all about of player's Role-Play, not about metaphysical garbage. GL.


tf you even talking about

#56
house2fly

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This game about pirates and wizards where you help feed the lower classes and battle fire vikings has too much metaphysics in it.

#57
Khagmas

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This game about pirates and wizards where you help feed the lower classes and battle fire vikings has too much metaphysics in it.

Yeah? I think that game mainly about the "Builders of Engwithans" who became Gods and about their descendants over whom they have power. And everything revolves around this ugly metaphysical main idea. There is no real sense of gravitas or choice, and for the most part side quests (stories about these descendants and their life in Eora without metaphysical intervention of Gods? Yeah?) were far more varied than the main questline.

Yes, choise - is nothing. Wheel will be Break.

What will it mean? - Is Nothing. No matter how everything is significant for life in Eora - everything will be reduced to one version, as is the case with the ending of the first game and the beginning of the adventure in Deadfire.

Still not sure that everything comes down to metaphysics?

Waidwen's Legacy, Leaden Key, Saint's War, All 3 DLCs of Deadfire with a metaphysical intervention of Gods and main questline with 'Hunt on Eothas'? White March part 2?

Want to just 'clean' the dungeons? Then be prepared for the fact that you will soon learn about a new metaphysic problem. And the more globally you face the task, the greater the chance that your choice means nothing.

There is no reason to guess what will happen and how it will affect. 'The Only Metahysical Decision' will be the answer to all our questions.

Isn't it great that we really don't have choise in the game with the choice?


Edited by Khagmas, 10 January 2019 - 09:29 AM.


#58
house2fly

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I guess I'm just not too clear on how not being able to prevent Eothas breaking the Wheel is particularly relevant to the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between possibility and actuality.



#59
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There is something which I have been curious about, but it is something that hasn't been explained fully as far as I know - there seem to be soul degradation in process - they split into pieces and eventually wear out into nothingness (Rymgrand's entrophy). It doesn't seem like new souls are being born. Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live. 

 

From PoE2's story i got the impression that the degradation was caused by the gods syphoning small chunks of essence from reincarnating souls (thus fracturing the souls) instead of being a natural occurrence, or perhaps it was already a part of the natural reincarnation cycle and the creation of the Wheel worsened it. In any case, we will probably not now for sure until PoE3 is released.


Edited by Uburian, 10 January 2019 - 12:58 PM.


#60
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I guess I'm just not too clear on how not being able to prevent Eothas breaking the Wheel is particularly relevant to the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between possibility and actuality.

lolwhat? Speaking about of metaphysics, I mean its definition from the game: "A young field of knowledge, Metaphysics deals with animancy, adra, the Wheel, the In-Between, the Beyond, and all mysteries of the soul."

The Gods and this Metaphysics too often began appear in the plot in order to inflate the importance of everything and everyone. Most of these stories are actually empty and do not carry any meaning = real influence on the game world.

Pillars of Eternity is good without it. And all this pouting importance about the gods only harms the universe.

It is better go through the quests about pirate's battles, castle sieges, sweeps dungeon and other local conflicts - where decisions will lead to consequences.

It is better to do something more simple and understandable, where the player will be pleased that the game world has begun to change in proportion to the importance of the completed tasks.

In short, down with the water in the stories.

Down with the Wheel! About these Gods need to forget. They cannot be made so involved in everything. This game should not be about them, but about decisions and their consequences for the main character and maybe for some local part of the Eora-world?

Or not?


Edited by Khagmas, 10 January 2019 - 01:21 PM.





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