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Frustrated by the game design


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#41
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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some folks like d&d lore, regardless o' mechanics.  got decades o' history and nostalgia to bolster the d&d settings.  however, when folks talk o' d&d system and mechanics, is so difficult to figure out what exact it is they is preferring.  original white box d&d were considerable different than d20... as much as 4e were different than d20.  have actual had folks become enraged when Gromnir suggested that approval o' ad&d staples such as save-or-die and arbitrary multiclassing rules from bg2 were approval o' the "d&d" qualities o' the ie games. 

 

i like ad&d for its wanton eccentricity. i cant see the er... 'word' THAC0 without laughing. while it plays better as a tabletop system than one would expect, i dont think i could advocate it without tongue in cheek.

 

wasnt biggest fan of 3.x. felt the numbers got out of control too quickly, powergaming sucked up too much time. it seemed better suited to video game than table. i currently play and enjoy 5e. didnt expect to, but there ye go.

 

have repeated this before on forum. am of opinion people dont know what they want, and if they do know, they lie.


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#42
Bleak

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My 2 cents - I prefer the DnD system by far. 

is fair and fine, but hard part for developers is absence of "why."

 

 

Time available requires me to be painfully brief, unfortunately. 

Developers definitely do not expect to be enlightened by me, nor do I expect developers to read my posts. I just posted my preference. When I offer feedback, I usually devote time which is mostly wasted as you yourself imply in your last paragraph. Anyway here are some reasons:

 

1) Attributes - what they affect, how they scale. You already know how e.g. a +1 strength bonus affects dice rolls in DnD. Less linear, more impactful. Theme is secondary, but I find DnD attributes much more thematically solid when it comes to what they affect.

 

2) Attack resolution in general. Miss/graze/hit/crit margins and percentages when it comes to the game calculating the resolution and how they change depending on the accuracy/defense gap.   

 

3) The fact that spells go through the same attack resolution and do not feel like a unique kind of attack like in DnD. 

 

I agree that balance concerns are definitely not meaningless, but too much attention to balance always leads to homogenization. Recognizable is not enough. Unique is better. As for unintuitive, let's not open that can of worms.


Edited by Bleak, 26 December 2018 - 04:33 PM.


#43
Gromnir

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My 2 cents - I prefer the DnD system by far. 

is fair and fine, but hard part for developers is absence of "why."

 

 

Time available requires me to be painfully brief, unfortunately. 

Developers definitely do not expect to be enlightened by me, nor do I expect developers to read my posts. I just posted my preference. When I offer feedback, I usually devote time which is mostly wasted as you yourself imply in your last paragraph. Anyway here are some reasons:

 

1) Attributes - what they affect, how they scale. You already know how e.g. a +1 strength bonus affects dice rolls in DnD. Less linear, more impactful. Theme is secondary, but I find DnD attributes much more thematically solid when it comes to what they affect.

 

2) Attack resolution in general. Miss/graze/hit/crit margins and percentages when it comes to the game calculating the resolution and how they change depending on the accuracy/defense gap.   

 

3) The fact that spells go through the same attack resolution and do not feel like a unique kind of attack like in DnD. 

 

I agree that balance concerns are definitely not meaningless, but too much attention to balance always leads to homogenization. Recognizable is not enough. Unique is better. As for unintuitive, let's not open that can of worms.

 

not much to go on...

 

1) d&d attributes is far less intuitive.... and am still not certain which d&d you are speaking 'bout. lack o' intuitiveness  is not actual subject to debate, is it?  3e attributes have every second point value provide gains, so +1 does not actual necessarily provide any benefit, and the +1 benefit, when it does actual provide a benefit, provides vast different benefits depending on class choice.  the benefits o' strength 18/26 v. 18/27?  there is skills which is modified by strength... and size modifies strength, but a few skills which is modified by strength might actual be diminished by size.  strength doesn't affect ranged thac0 or damage, save for when it does.  etc.

 

2) is not an observation 'bout d20 or d&d. gonna need clarify, but if you are saying miss/graze/hit/crit is less intuitive or more oblique than thac0 or d20 than am gonna need more of a response, 'cause am not agreeing.  

 

3) am agreeing that the poe combat resolution mechanics is more unified and rational than d&d, particularly ad&d.  already mentioned the complete arbitrariness o' ad&d saving throws, but we can post the charts if need be.  if different is necessarily superior, then you might wanna argue ad&d is superior, but is tough to find another positive other than different.  d20 makes caster dc utter and complete dispositive and is suffering from clear thresholds. if you don't have enough points in your prime casting attribute, you will fail regardless o' tactics or strategies or buffs or debuffs or whatnot.  etc.  'course if different is genuine important, am gonna note how poe, unlike d&d, offers much more variety o' gameplay.  chanters have phrases and invocations. is a much different mechanic than monk wounds or the more traditional casters. and 'course there is cipher focus which is generated by doing damage to foes.   fighters have active abilities they may start using at early levels as 'posed to being reduced to making auto-attacks overandoverandoverandover.  d&d core classes is easily dividing caster and weapon combat.  less variety.  sure, all poe classes use same combat number crunching, but such is rational and does not change fact poe offers more core gameplay variety. 

 

not enumerated, but the oft mentioned balance = homogenized bit is actual reversing reality.  in games with poor balance, such as d&d and fallout, there is correct and wrong builds 'cause o' clear difference in efficacy.  during development, poe developers noted how few different fo builds were actual utilized in spite o' the open rule system.  d&d suffered similar, but worse.  d20 has literal prerequisite feats and skills for a variety o' optimal builds.  poe/deadfire made suboptimal builds much more viable than d&d counterparts.  sure, d&d has decades o' splat books to provide options, but few such options is ever actual utilized.  given the relative brief time poe has existed, the options per offering ratio is far greater for poe/deadfire.  even the s'posed terrible poe options, 'according to the hardcore build monkeys, is usal not just effective but powerful.

 

https://forums.obsid...suck/?p=1993983

 

is kinda funny, but when full poe2 were released, most o' the "rogues suck" complaints disappeared... though such threads were replaced with a few "priests suck" threads... but priestly suckage were more 'bout  curiously unbalanced spell lists and not lack o' efficacy. priests has clear right and wrong options for spells.  lack o' balance is what harmed priest class playability.  unbalanced spell lists means all priests has a tendency to look alike.  homogenized.

 

and why on earth would we wanna ignore the can o' worms which is d&d when it comes to being counter intuitive?  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#44
draego

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wow i couldnt agree with Gromnir more on all counts. im shocked



#45
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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2) Attack resolution in general. Miss/graze/hit/crit margins and percentages when it comes to the game calculating the resolution and how they change depending on the accuracy/defense gap.   

 

this where i prefer poe tbh. the hard pass/fail rng of d&d is kinda fun when ur on tabletop, if for no reason other than to laugh at someone else crit failing, but in a video game is often just annoying - esp if ur characters slightly undertuned and the 1-20 spread isnt enough to make up for it. ur often just sat there with ur fingers crossed hoping for crits, or banging ur head in frustration when ur spellcaster crit fails that ranged touch attack on a high level spell. poe's miss/graze/hit/crit spread is at least more forgiving and predictable.

 

like with an actual dm, u can at least sort of 'fail forward' with d&d, but in a video game, not so much. 



#46
Ensign

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30% dmg bonus from Overpenetration is additive, not multiplicative.

Damage bonus from Power Level is multiplicative.

 

 

Not the damage from overpenetration, but the threshold for overpenetration (2x armor) and bonus from critical hits (1.5x penetration).  I like how those behave at the beginning of the game or when you're still in fine equipment, but late game with legendary gear and max level enemies neither of those functions all that well.

I think it'd work better with, say, +2(3?) pen on crit and +3(4?) pen over armor for overpen, or similar - something that made it work consistently throughout the game.


Edited by Ensign, 26 December 2018 - 08:11 PM.


#47
Frak

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  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

 

 

I probably agree with most of your post, but this is just an internet platitude. You can google ANYTHING and be kept busy for a long time. The internet is strange. Very strange.

 

*Goes to search 'purple eggs dinosaurs'*



#48
Silvaren

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I agree with Gromnir.

PoE ruleset was designed mostly by Josh Sawyer and he had long experience with D&D and AD&D before even joining Interplay. He knows what works well, what doesn't. Ofcourse Josh has his personal preferences in terms of game mechanica and he spoke about it in one of his videos. One of the principles behind PoE was to make unified core system. So it is accuracy for regular attacks, abilities and spells against certain types of defense. Defense instead of saving throws isn't new. I knew this type of stats from Star Wars Saga (d20 system). In D&D 3 while casting spell there was only one roll - target's saving throw against DC of 10 + attribute bonus + lvl of spell + misc. In PoE it's still one dice roll but instead of saving throws character which makes an attack roll the dice against static defense. So it's similar but the roles are switched. In D&D fluid defense vs static DC, in PoE fluid attack vs static defense. It isn't much different.

Miss,graze,hit,crit are better imho than simply miss/hit/crit. At lower levels characters in D&D miss often. It's boring during the game both p&p a video adaptation. I remember my paladin swinging sword without any luck for turnes. Misses at lower levels made most people to stop playing Temple of Elemental Evil. Grazes are good option, can provide some satisfaction. And unification of core system is good for that. You can graze with debuff which is way better than all or none (like most debuffa in D&D). In D&D spells work in two ways. All or nothing, all or half damage (or small damage like 3k6 from failing Finger of Death).

Instant killing spells or abilities aren't good if you can build character with high enough bonuses to make DC impossible to pass. I remember my solo runs as sorcerer and priest of Talos in Icewind Dale 2 or as sorc in NWN. I understand that instant killing spells are OP and I know that Josh doesn't like it either.

Josh made interesting presentation of attributes system in PoE during GDC iirc. In AD&D scaling was terrible. In D&D were empty levels. No matter if your character has 10 or 11, 12 or 13 etc. It's stupid just like Bethesda's so called "Fallout 3" with skills like lockpicking. No matter if your character has it set to 50 or 74, it's the same value from system perspective. It's bad design.

PoE attributes are way better in terms of scaling. They have lower impact on the game but still are pretty important to conisder. Resolve still is dump stat in some builds but it isn't the scale of D&D or even greater in second AD&D. Builds may change priorities. Like CC wizard focusing on Per/Int/Dex doesn't need Might at all while Evoker does. PoE give players more arbitrary choices during character creation.

Ad&D wasn't intuitive at all. Thied edition changed it mostly for goos but 4th (while provides unification to core gameplay and character progression system) confused players with number of choices during character creation (all those powers). D&D 5 simplifies thing once again.

PoE has two layers of mechanics. Simple on the surface (attack rolls, defensive, miss, graze, hit, crit) and complicated layer deeply burried under the first (action speed and recovery, additive/multiplicative formulas, stacking, armor penetration). It shouldn't be so complicated but understanding of that deeper layer and player's mathematic skills aren't necessery to have fun with the game.

The reason for overcomplication, high numbers value and other things which are problematic to calcuate come from game being designed as computer RPG, not RPG.

#49
Verde

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I think PoE's combat and mechanics are vastly better than DnD minus a few areas -

1) Might dictating damage. Mighty Wizards. Stop it Obs.

2) Spellcasting...first we had per rest now we have per encounter and fixed Grimoires and it never reaches the epicness or feel of made duels in BG2. But I do think the PL system is a big step in the right direction.

3) Active and Passive skills aren't balanced. There are far too many useful Passives and not as many Actives.

However I don't mind not going back thr THAC0 ever again (unless it's BG2 ofcourse :p) and the lack of stat checks. I wonder how Kingmaker compares to DnD?

Edited by Verde, 27 December 2018 - 04:13 AM.


#50
greenpine82

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In my personal view, the problem is "1 attack roll type (Accuracy) vs 4 types of defense (Deflection, Fortitude, Will, Reflex ) ".

 

E.g: https://pillarsofete...com/Vile Thorns

 

Currently, we can increase the success rate of the spell's condition effect by increasing the Accuracy. The difference in defense type is just the scores not the types.  Should we treat "the Fortitude, Will, Reflex" as second layer like Armor Rating? 



#51
Bleak

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  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

 

 

I probably agree with most of your post, but this is just an internet platitude. You can google ANYTHING and be kept busy for a long time. The internet is strange. Very strange.

 

*Goes to search 'purple eggs dinosaurs'*

 

 

In other words you can confirm any bias, especially for something that has been around for so long.

 

@Gromnir

 

1) Yes, I am talking about the bonus that every 2 points give, not the points themselves. There is merit in having every attribute count for every class but I don't prefer it thematically, or practically. Thematically, the reasons are self-explanatory, practically because essentially every attribute affects every class in the same flat way.

 

2) Triple understood my gripe and prefers the PoE system. The factor of randomness and consistency of the resolution obviously differ. As Triple said, most of the time it is more predictable and forgiving in PoE. 

 

3) You can argue in favor of both systems and your arguments can be legit. They differ - beyond that it's a matter of preference. The options/combos that can be utilized in DnD are still vast, but as you said it has been around for years so it definitely is not fair to compare them on that.

 

I agree that a *sense* of balance creates diversity by making all classes a viable option. That's where I draw the line for balancing a non-mmo game though. Variety is even more important even if it means e.g. that a class will be much superior than another class during the "end game". Trying to balance every class in order for it to be *equally viable* throughout the game (and not just viable) will eventually lead to a degree of homogenization. I enjoy this part of the lack of balance in DnD, because not every vocation is created equally - I find it more refreshingly realistic. Same for e.g. instant kill spells, "they are all of nothing" spells, they are not "balanced", but that is also part of what makes them unique. I would certainly not put them in an mmo but I think that in a crpg like this, we shouldn't be so enamoured with the lack of balance.

 

I am not saying that Josh didn't do a good job creating a system - he did and the system is still new after all, but again, it's a matter of preference for someone who has experienced both systems. 

 

 

Btw regarding the previous topic, why even post any feedback if the only guy who sees it is this one :p https://forums.obsid...-cap-increase/?


Edited by Bleak, 27 December 2018 - 04:40 AM.


#52
Gromnir

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  simple do a google search with terms: d&d; counter; intuitive.  will keep you busy for a long time.

 

 

 

I probably agree with most of your post, but this is just an internet platitude. You can google ANYTHING and be kept busy for a long time. The internet is strange. Very strange.

 

*Goes to search 'purple eggs dinosaurs'*

 

there is something 'bout the internet which makes folks wanna embrace absurdist.

 

try and find internet support for notion the 2002 houston texans were the bestest nfl team ever.

 

...

 

we can wait.

 

even if you do find such support for ridiculous arguments such as intuitive d&d or the dominance o' the 2002 texans, such stuff will be outliers and fringe.  yeah, the present situation is illuminating as is seeming proof o' the curious proposition that any thread 'bout the craptacular idiosyncrasies o' d&d, ad&d, and d20 will seeming attract at least one guy who argues d&d multiclassing, dual class and thac0 were not only superior to any other crpg system, but that such stuff were intuitive.  the, "you can always find one guy" wackiness is maybe not universal, but is indeed approaching truism. 

 

again, am not suggesting the bare existence o' internet debate 'bout counter intuitive, nonsensical and exception laden d&d is proof o' counterintuitive d&d.  nevertheless, if opposition to a belief is widespread and approaching universal, a reasonable person would at least pause to question their certainty.  bleak wanted to avoid the "can o' worms," as he/she put it, no?  Gromnir were identifying the actual nature o' the can o' worms and recognizing how the can were not some kinda balanced debate where reasonable minds may and do disagree.  all you gotta do is look for similar arguments which has happened ad nauseum on these boards alone.  d&d, for all its popularity and strength as an enduring crpg system, has never been particular intuitive.... though it does indeed feel as if there is always that one tenacious rearguard defender o' the faith. 

 

sadly, the argument itself is becoming predictive repetitive.

 

https://forums.obsid...-3e35/?p=526646

 

 

HA! Good Fun!



#53
draego

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from Triple - A Foxy Lad in other thread

 

the warning id give is that its balanced around someone who knows how to abuse pathfinder or 3.x. so builds that wont have u throwing computer out of window in frustration arent always obvious. do urself a favour and check how to build before playing.

 

also be willing to look up the necessary counter spell for certain fights if u run into a wall. - for example i ran into one annoying fight that was rendered utterly trivial by 'disrupting weapons'. 'death ward' and 'freedom of movement' have starring turns as well. because its a d&d game, 'haste', the concealment spells, 'mirror image' + 'stoneskin' are all busted, as is tradition.

 

this is good example of the non intuitiveness of d&d. POE is more intuitive to start the game you can just pick you Attributes and Abilities and you will be fine with the descriptions the game provides. You cant do that in d&d you have to know that certain attributes are needed for certain class and learn that certain abilities are traps. When presented with the abilities and attributes up front you would not realize this. There is way more meta game knowledge needed to start a game. 

 

Also the idea that accuracy vs (fort, will, ref, def) is less intuitive than different saving throws is ridiculous.  And as far as the hard counters as presented above. I saw a streamer try to fight some swarms of something in pathfinder and get wrecked over and over and someone told them to equip torches and throw some kind of fire bombs (shocking they didnt have any or the alchemist class to make any the game basically trapped them) but they finally finished the encounter. The game didnt explain this in the least chat had to explain this. That is the very definition of opaque unlike POE where you can see the defense the enemy is weak to on the screen. There are just to many examples like that not to see that


Edited by draego, 27 December 2018 - 07:48 AM.


#54
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Also the idea that accuracy vs (fort, will, ref, def) is less intuitive than different saving throws is ridiculous. 

 

one issue i have with d&d is that it seems totally random whether the attacker rolls to hit or the defender rolls to evade/resist. like why doesnt a caster aim a fireball the same way an archer fires a crossbow. pfft.

 

and dont get me started on grappling. wtf is going on there. if that warrants opposing rolls, why doesnt anything else.

 

at least in POE everything is straight up an attack roll - no exceptions - like im not one to prize consistency for its own sake, but it makes more immediate sense.

 

 

And as far as the hard counters as presented above. I saw a streamer try to fight some swarms of something in pathfinder and get wrecked over and over and someone told them to equip torches and throw some kind of fire bombs 

 

i know the encounter ur on about. tbf the game now warns u about this and gives u a generous stack of alchemists fire in advance. it doesnt pay you the same courtesy later on, but i guess u cant expect it to hold ur hand throughout.


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#55
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30% dmg bonus from Overpenetration is additive, not multiplicative.

Damage bonus from Power Level is multiplicative.


Not the damage from overpenetration, but the threshold for overpenetration (2x armor) and bonus from critical hits (1.5x penetration). I like how those behave at the beginning of the game or when you're still in fine equipment, but late game with legendary gear and max level enemies neither of those functions all that well.

I think it'd work better with, say, +2(3?) pen on crit and +3(4?) pen over armor for overpen, or similar - something that made it work consistently throughout the game.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification! :thumbsup:

#56
Archaven

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The problem I find with deadfire is that it does not have a "definite" ruleset. Game you played few months back are quite different today. Balance wise. They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

#57
Bleak

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They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.



#58
Gromnir

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They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

 

unless you establish that deadfire as played now is worse than deadfire as played months ago, am not seeing how such a balance "criticism" is noteworthy.  there is respec in game, which thanks to continued patching efforts, now works.  so, overall positive balance changes, which improve gameplay as described earlier in this thread, is bad in what way? 

 

constant efforts to improve game would appear to be a laudable developer effort.  is new content which is being added via dlc and chances for breaking the game by accident has been a constant possibility.  even so, developers is not abandoning an otherwise broken game and is instead attempting to fix those bugs and mechanical imbalances which tend to diminish gameplay.

 

now am admitting that w/o respec, major changes to a character even when such changes is well-intentioned, may be more than a little disruptive.  is a bit hyperbolic, but if a player's entire character concept hinges on a specific synergy o' features which were emmasculated in buld X.x, then a player will understandably face frustration as they is stuck with a similarly emasculated character.  the thing is respec is a reasonable solution to such problems.  sure, is tough to feel too much pity for the player overinvested in exploitive gameplay, but even if such is the case, the player may respec character howsoever they wish rather than needing restart a game.  is no loss o' tens o' hours o' gameplay 'cause o' the uncaring balancing efforts o' developers.

 

and serious, we could deal with a bit less definitive when it comes to broken features in deadfire.  find an easy way to overhaul penetration or make priest spell catalog less unbalanced even +8 months after release o' deadfire would be more than simple welcome. 

 

alternative would be to end developer efforts to fix and balance clear broken features for the sake o' definitive.

 

am thinking snoopy "said" it best.

 

 

when deadfire music inevitable stops, will be disappointing.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#59
Ensign

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The problem I find with deadfire is that it does not have a "definite" ruleset. Game you played few months back are quite different today. Balance wise. They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

If you want to use an old overtuned thing, or add new overtuned things there are plenty of mods for that.

 

The unmodified game should be as close to balanced as possible.  You want first time players who have read nothing about strategy or tactics ahead of time to have a consistent experience, and you can't deliver that if the various options (which they will be choosing from quasi-randomly) are wildly out of balance with each other.


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#60
DaylenAmell

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They are approaching a single player game balance as it's an online multiplayer game.

 

Exactly. As long as the options are viable, that level of balancing is not needed.

 

Balance encourages people to try different classes and playstyles. If some classes are much stronger than others, many people would only play those classes and their gaming experienced relatively restricted.  


Edited by DaylenAmell, 28 December 2018 - 03:05 PM.

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