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Frustrated by the game design


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#21
Cartoons Plural

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did pathfinder devs hire a bunch of eastern europeans to ****post about other games tho seriously

The Pathfinder franchise has a much larger and more established fanbase really. Familiarity can make something seem better in comparison to something new. So basically the system they are already comfortable with makes more sense. The new system by comparison is illogical. Even though both are complete abstractions that don't stay completely logical or consistent.

its weird to me how often negative user reviews for their competition end in "unlike pathfinder kingmaker which is amazing"

pathfinder table top always seemed like the system for suckers who didnt get juiced on books enough from 3.5

#22
greenpine82

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Blaming the others is not good. It’s pretty easy just to ignore the weak point of the game and blame someone else even though you know it's true.



#23
Verde

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Blaming the others is not good. It’s pretty easy just to ignore the weak point of the game and blame someone else even though you know it's true.


And to take a step further, taking criticism of a game personally. But I'm sure we're all guilty of that when it's a game/feature we love.

Edited by Verde, 25 December 2018 - 04:52 AM.


#24
Psychovampiric Shield

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I really the real-time combat system of this game. But I think the attribute system & the defense system need to be improved more. For example,  I cannot understand the logic behind these mechanics: Accuracy vs Fortitude, Accuracy vs Reflex, Accuracy vs Will. I think there is a better mechanic for these DnD/Pathfinder concepts :)

 

Interesting. I think the logic is like this: combat is essentially search for optimal or at least good enough order of who will attack whom with what. For that to be fun, there have to be a) many solutions, b) multiple viable solutions and c) preferably no obvious solutions.

If all combatans were the same, with one generic attack, solution would be to just focus on any enemy, then on the next etc., which would be boring as hell. If all enemies were almost the same, but some did more damage, the solution wold be to focus on high damage enemies first, which would be slightly more intriguing, but still overall boring. If some were easier to hit, then the solution would be to focus on easier to hit, high damage first, then it would be unclear whether harder to hit, high damage, or easier to hit, low damage should go first, but in any event, harder to hit, low damage would go last. And that would be markedly more intriguing combat system than the one we started with.  If some enemies were harder to hit with some attacks, but easier to hit with some other attacks, it would perhaps be prudent to stop focusing all on one and have some companions attack some enemies with certain attacks, and some attack other enemies with other attacks. Even more so if some enemies took less damage from certain attacks, but more from some other attacks.

So you see, with each added layer, combat becomes more complex and intriguing. But not just combat. When you level up, instead of simply learning a spell that does highest damage, you may consider spell that does less damage, but targets different defense, has different damage type, penetration etc.

 

EDIT: speaking of penetration/DR, I salute whoever came up with it.


Edited by Psychovampiric Shield, 25 December 2018 - 05:59 AM.


#25
protopersona

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EDIT: speaking of penetration/DR, I salute whoever came up with it.

I think that might be the most positive thing I've read about Penetration in Deadfire.


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#26
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Right.

It's bad. And that's the nicest thing I can say about it (sorry Josh).

Especially bad is that

a) PotD scales AR up so all things that improve PER increase in value - immensely. That makes so many weapon/ability options less viable

b) double inversion of the dmg reduction (that is the result of underpenetration) leads to a hefty, hefty reduction.

Edited by Boeroer, 25 December 2018 - 01:56 PM.

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#27
the_dog_days

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My closet theory is that the PEN and additive Might are due to the devs trying to preemptively mitigate the Rogue multiclass meta. The end result is a confused mess. :/



#28
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Any of u systems/maths dudes got a good take on how to 'fix' penetration?

from what i can see its achieving its goal of forcing u to switch up or diversify ur damage types - which i like - but causing a lot of unecessary grief in process, esp when numbers hit a certain point.

Like I dont have the head for this so i dont know if problem is fundamental concept or a maths thing.

I dont know how much can be gleaned from it, but id always quite liked SMT's double risk/double reward system regarding types of damage. U could lose or gain entire turns with it through choice of attack or protection.

#29
hilfazer

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EDIT: speaking of penetration/DR, I salute whoever came up with it.

 

 

inXile.

It is featured in WL2.

Except for overpenetration but it's not a vital part of the system. Obsidian wanted to reward players who stacked way more PEN than necessary.



#30
Psychovampiric Shield

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My closet theory is that the PEN and additive Might are due to the devs trying to preemptively mitigate the Rogue multiclass meta. The end result is a confused mess. :/

 

I think they looked at PoE 1 and realized that DR did not matter unless it was flat out immunity. Even more so in Tyranny, where, coincidentaly, multiplicative bonuses snowball until damage is in hundreds or thousands points per single hit, so one can just as well wear cloth and spam these attacks as fast as possible.

As for confused mess, tooltips are indeed sometimes incorrect and anyway do not take into account dual wielding. Furthermore, enemt stats are no longer shown out of combat, which makes it harder to rearm correctly without attack-reload cycle.



#31
hilfazer

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My closet theory is that the PEN and additive Might are due to the devs trying to preemptively mitigate the Rogue multiclass meta. The end result is a confused mess. :/

 

I think they looked at PoE 1 and realized that DR did not matter unless it was flat out immunity. Even more so in Tyranny, where, coincidentaly, multiplicative bonuses snowball until damage is in hundreds or thousands points per single hit, so one can just as well wear cloth and spam these attacks as fast as possible.

As for confused mess, tooltips are indeed sometimes incorrect and anyway do not take into account dual wielding. Furthermore, enemt stats are no longer shown out of combat, which makes it harder to rearm correctly without attack-reload cycle.

 

 

They just failed in PoE1's system.

There was a lvl 7 spell giving same amount of DR as lvl 2 spell. Weapons were getting % increases from enchantment but armors were getting flat. And that's not everything.



#32
Frak

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Might as much as it throws off many people and is hated by many, makes sense logically.

 

I think it's because many associate might with physical strength in RPG's.

 

They should have named it "powah"! And no cap on it. So you could have ... wait for it ... "unlimited powah"!  :w00t:



#33
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The reason why (the easy to grasp) flat DR from PoE had to go was that it couldn't keep up with the increasing damage numbers. DR 0 or DR 20 doesn't matter that much once you get hit by a 200-point-damage attack. The reduction is only 10%. While it would be 50% if a 40-point-dmg attack hits you. And scaling it more steeply also wouldn't work because then weaker enemies couldn't hit you at all.

So because of player feedback Obsidian decided to alter that DR system. And they came up with PEN which was even more binary in its beta version (it was horrible: PEN was THE GOD stat).

Now it got some more stages, but it's still the most important thing - at least at PotD.

A percentage based DR would have been better I think. More granular so you're not trying to gain that one point of PER that takes you over the edge - still it would scale with damage. And you could add MIN and MAX values if you wished.
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#34
Ensign

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I honestly think the armor vs pen system is fine. There are some really minor tweaks I would make to it (multiplicative overpen in an otherwise additive system is weird) but I think the core design is sound.

I think the tuning of the pen system is poor. There are too few sources of additional pen; armor suffers a similar problem. Those sources of pen that do exist do so at essentially zero opportunity cost with respect to damage. It is important that, given their relative import, each source presents substantial opportunity costs to make investing in it a serious choice. Lots of potential directions here, but at least with respect to high level enemies penetration is king and you want to stack every bit possible because you can't get enough.

#35
house2fly

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Pen was designed to correct an issue with Pillars 1, where combat felt "mushy" because it wasn't sufficiently clear which options would be best in which situations. I feel like this could have been achieved by just making the difference between armour values bigger, rather than introducing a whole new mechanic: if something has 12 pierce armour but 8 fire armour then there's not much reason to use a fire spell instead of your bow, but clearly that would change if they made it 19 pierce armour and 5 fire armour



#36
hilfazer

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The reason why (the easy to grasp) flat DR from PoE had to go was that it couldn't keep up with the increasing damage numbers. DR 0 or DR 20 doesn't matter that much once you get hit by a 200-point-damage attack. The reduction is only 10%. While it would be 50% if a 40-point-dmg attack hits you. And scaling it more steeply also wouldn't work because then weaker enemies couldn't hit you at all.

 
Weaker enemies did 20% of their damage because PoE1 had hybrid damage reduction. Now they do 25%. Not a huge difference.

Besides, if there's a number bloat weaker units are screwed regardless of armor system used.
 
They could also do what they did in FN:V and add consumables with % reduction. Having more consumables worth using in their game would be a bonus.
 

More granular so you're not trying to gain that one point of PER that takes you over the edge - still it would scale with damage.


Isn't this what Josh called 'mushy' and what players disliked about PoE1? I mean, players didn't know if their damage is good enough and when to switch weapons.



#37
the_dog_days

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EDIT: speaking of penetration/DR, I salute whoever came up with it.

 

 

inXile.

It is featured in WL2.

Except for overpenetration but it's not a vital part of the system. Obsidian wanted to reward players who stacked way more PEN than necessary.

 

 

:skeptical: Pen/armor systems have been around before inXile ever existed.



#38
Boeroer

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I honestly think the armor vs pen system is fine. There are some really minor tweaks I would make to it (multiplicative overpen in an otherwise additive system is weird) but I think the core design is sound.

I think the tuning of the pen system is poor. There are too few sources of additional pen; armor suffers a similar problem. Those sources of pen that do exist do so at essentially zero opportunity cost with respect to damage. It is important that, given their relative import, each source presents substantial opportunity costs to make investing in it a serious choice. Lots of potential directions here, but at least with respect to high level enemies penetration is king and you want to stack every bit possible because you can't get enough.


30% dmg bonus from Overpenetration is additive, not multiplicative.

Damage bonus from Power Level is multiplicative.

#39
Bleak

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My 2 cents - I prefer the DnD system by far. 



#40
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My 2 cents - I prefer the DnD system by far. 

is fair and fine, but hard part for developers is absence of "why."

 

d&d is poor balanced and unintuitive.  sorry, but is not opinion.  perhaps balance is less important to some folks (is never actual meaningless regardless o' protests to contrary) and an obscure and impenetrable system is undaunting to a group o' folks.  not change the is. d&d is poor balanced and unintuitive.  might as well get givens out o' the way, yes?

 

some folks like d&d lore, regardless o' mechanics.  got decades o' history and nostalgia to bolster the d&d settings.  however, when folks talk o' d&d system and mechanics, is so difficult to figure out what exact it is they is preferring.  original white box d&d were considerable different than d20... as much as 4e were different than d20.  have actual had folks become enraged when Gromnir suggested that approval o' ad&d staples such as save-or-die and arbitrary multiclassing rules from bg2 were approval o' the "d&d" qualities o' the ie games.  

 

w/o context, am not certain what it means to "prefer the D&D system," and am betting the developers is likewise baffled.

 

poe developers attempted to divine what were essentials o' the ie games.  squad-based, rt combat with pause?  a class-based system with recognizable classes?  multiple and familiar race options?  got such stuff for poe.  but were thac0 essential?  ad&d saving throws?  racial level caps? aforementioned save-or-die spells and effects? dual-class rules for humans?  ad&d kits or d20 prestige classes... or neither? ad&d attributes wherein 8-15 rare made a difference, but 16+ defined a character... at least until level 8 or so when gear utter trivialized attributes?  

 

*shrug*

 

am never certain what is essential d&d when folks invoke.  can't much argue lore as is subjective, but am thinking you mean something else by invoking "system."

 

am not actual being critical.  lots o' people prefer d&d to poe.  nothing wrong with such an opinion.  however, people rare says why d&d is better, and when they does, as did the genesis poster, they is often self contradictory in their approval. makes extreme difficult for developers to learn anything useful... and developer enlightenment, we suspect, is the prime goal o' posting such observations on the developer's message board, no?

 

am rare sympathizing with obsidian game developers, particular as obsidian developers appear to purposeful avoid their own boards as a potential meaningful source o' feedback. that said, we do see developer difficulties in gleaning useful information here and elsewheres.  as others have mentioned earlier in this thread, poe2 penetration were added precise because developers read feedback from poe fans and were trying to come up with a system which would appeal more to those complaining fans.  arguable the single worst mechanical change to poe were an attempt by developers to respond to fan base criticism.  well-intentioned and wrong? and lord only knows how developers ever see any kinda fan consensus-- every issue and feature appears to breed a multiplicity o' opinions, and rabid hardcore fan feedback is rare representative o' any kinda meaningful consensus anyways.  add to fact posters is rare clear with their criticism (e.g.  "I prefer the DnD system by far") and is no wonder the developers appear utter lost when they do twitch streams and speak o' fan feedback.  

 

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 26 December 2018 - 03:29 PM.

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