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FF definitely has some interesting balancing acts to make, Defenses too high and you miss out on wounds, high might making the curse damage effect stronger (I assume it does anyway)

I am playing a FF/Paladin at the moment, she is a pure tank - easiest (but longest) solo ironman run of my life

 

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You want to get to the point where you get damaged 2 times (<3sec curse) and heal more than the 2 dmg ticks with one expire - Dawnstar blessing, Voidward, Forgetful Night or Glazed Chops helps quite a bit.

If you stack the Curse... you will die, its simply not worth it, at all.

 

High might should make the goal harder to achieve but its quite nice to max healing.

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High defenses are not necessary, with enough resolve and -hostile duration they can hit you with every damn thing in the book and you don't mind (well, form of the helpless beast is a bitch...)

 

 

 

 

 

The alternatives are not so nice: Ring of the Solitary Wanderer and Harmony Ring kind of contradict each other... Chameleon's Toch only raises RES for Priest (ok when mutilclassing with one of course) and Druid (played a Forbidden Fist/Animist already - was meh)... what else is out there?

You can get the +2 Resolve Amulet Token of faith, start a human +1 with Berath Blessing +2 and +1 resolve background, get the +2 buff from Outcasts Respite, +1 permanent Outcasts Respite, Solitary Wanderer or Harmony +1, +18 starting=28, there is the prostitute for +2, thats 30 - with poverty cloak or Inspiration, 35

Edited by Reent
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Defenses too high and you miss out on wounds

Why is that? Forbidden Fist can't generate wounds from damage - or do you mean FF will not catch a lot of afflictions once defenses are too high?

 

You can help that with self induced afflictions which do no attack rolls (e.g. Powder Burns).

 

Besides that: with high RES the Forbidden Fist curse is short enough that you don't need much else (if you also pick Enduring Dance).

 

It's also very difficult to completely avoid stuff like your party member's pulsing AoE spells (Binding Web, Tanglefoot, Pull of Eora etc.) - even with high defenses you will get grazed (which is great since the duration is even shorter then).

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Hylea Talons will generate wounds on FF.  On hireling with 24 RES (20 +4 from items)/ 10 INT and Lone Wolf it last around 4sec. You can have another +2(pet), +2 BB, + 2 Alchemic Wits, +1 Cauldron Brew, +1 Effigy's Resentment, +2 Rabyuna bonus. That's 34RES. And there is always Nature Resolve (+2) and blessing from shrine (+2) that you can obtain without resting by triggering scripted event, but that is more for "no rest run".

 

edit.  rechecked it, dot from talons lasts over 5 sec

Edited by Waski

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Anyone try ff/ priest of wael? Suppress affliction and resolve inspiration seems to synergize anf you get the nice defensive spells for additional tankiness plus priest healing to offset forbidden fist ability

Edited by doggiep0op
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How is Tuotilo's palm compared to dual fists an usual fist & shield ? I'm always suspecting the worst when it comes to bash shield...

I understood it scales as fists but with a lower base damages basis, both dual wielding base bonus and talents do apply.
the overall value should be above Sword and Board style given its low base damage, but still lower than dual fists.

Fists avg : 16.5, Tuotilo avg : 9, mean : 12.75,
12.75/16.5 (mean damage withfist only)= 77%
but the increased attack speed of +15% EDIT : it's +30% for dual weapons +15% for TW Style should compensate and put it higher than Fist + Shield.

However, Tuotilo final enchants seem to shift the balance in its direction...

Edited by Elric Galad
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Dual wielding automatically gives you a 30% bonus, not 15%. Two Weapon Style is 15% like you said.

 

It's better than a normal small shield. Especially because of Full Attacks and the unarmed-enchantments which apply to shield and fist. I wouldn't say barely better but much better.

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Anyway, with high Res, one should ultimately use more FF ability and less weapon attacks.

Since FF isn't a weapon attack, weapons you carry won't matter that much, except for their passive effects, which makes shields more interesting in general.

As you said, it also makes Cipher (no soul whip), Barbarians (no carnage), Rogue (no sneak bonus) and to a lesser extent Fighter (no weapon mastery) a bit let interesting.

 

But how does this compare in term of DPS to standard attacks (I don't think stacking curses worths it most of the time) ?

I except FF to benefit more from Might than weapons (since there's no enchant bonus) and to benefit much from PL.

Since Might also buff self-healing from the curse ending, High Mig + High Res seem a good choice.

 

EDIT : Since its base damages were nerfed in 4.1.2, I don't think FF ability is that great to deal damages. Being a spammable ability that benefits from PL scaling is probably barely sufficient to make it better comparable to auto-attacking... a bit more if you carry a shield and your auto-attacking has a lower DPS.

Edited by Elric Galad
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Yep, and it starts higher then fists (9?). With some +PL and Thunderous Blows 20PEN should be easily within the reach.

 

Edit. Maybe it stacks with Devoted too?

Edited by Waski

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How ? Does it stack transcendant suffering scaling PEN bonus with ability PEN scaling ?

 

Damages seem to scale quite well too.

 

Ok, this requires actual testing ^^

lvl 18 Multiclass my monk/paladin has 11 pen with normal fists (7+4 suffering) while FF has 14,3 (9 start +4 suffering +1,3 powerlvl)

Started a devoted FF... 10 pen normal fists, 10 pen FF... doesn't stack

 

As for dmg, my normal fists deal 29-39, FF deals 36-49 -both with 24 might

 

And... i only get 10 dmg per FF use at the moment - that's +20 hp per FF use, quite nice xD

Edited by Reent
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You can't compare Forbidden Fist (ability) with plain fist (weapon) though. That's like comparing Mule Kick (ability) with a Sword (weapon). :)

I mean you can - but that's not an overly useful comparison.

 

Forbidden Fist is a (non-weapon) ability which scales its damage, PEN etc. with Power Level - like all offensive abilities do. Since it also proftis from Transcendent Suffering, it scales with Power Level twofold - as all offensive Monk abilites do if you execute them with fists.

 

So if you wanted to compare the non-weapon ability FF with your fists somehow and come to some meaningful conclusions you need to pick an attack ability that you use with your fists - for example Force of Anguish.

 

Both then profit from PL scaling (+5% base damage, PEN increase, ACC and so on) and then you'd have a more meaningful comparison I think.

 

You might be able to see then that the PEN difference between Force of Anguish and Forbidden fist isn't as severe anymore - also because you can use the fist modal with FoA but not with FF and also get some passive PEN bonuses via multiclass (Devoted, Hammering Thoughts...) that don't work with FF.

 

I personally think it's quite bad that FF is not considered to be a weapon attack - because it's odd that it doesn't generate focus and doesn't get bonuses from Sneak Attack and so on. If I'm right it doesn't even trigger Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming. That's not the slickest of ability designs if you ask me. I guessthey wanted to emphasize on the "fist" aspect and thus wanted to make sure that it only does crush damage. But giving it its own base damage and make it a non-weapon attack was not the coolest move. Instead they could have make it so that it's only useable with fists. I mean they do it with Aegis of Loyality - so why not with Forbidden "Fist"? Since Mons want to have their fists in at least the second weapon slot it woul have been a lesser deal than this weird non-weapon-things that prevents some nice multiclass synergies.

 

So atm can be seen as an unusual debuffing ability but not a dps ability (besides the self damage).

 

THe nice thing is that it scales quite well with Power Level due to its starting PL of 0. That means you already get +5% base dmg at lvl 1 I guess?

Edited by Boeroer

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You can't compare Forbidden Fist (ability) with plain fist (weapon) though. That's like comparing Mule Kick (ability) with a Sword (weapon). :)

I mean you can - but that's not an overly useful comparison.

While I take the point of your post, the difference is that FF (ability) doesn't cost resources. That means you're using it a lot more frequently than you might other offensive abilities (primarily because there is no opportunity cost except for time), which creates a very different gameplay loop to Mule Kick, etc. You can and should use FF so often that it notably more like an auto attack than other abilities (speaking from experience).

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You can't compare Forbidden Fist (ability) with plain fist (weapon) though. That's like comparing Mule Kick (ability) with a Sword (weapon). :)

I mean you can - but that's not an overly useful comparison.

While I take the point of your post, the difference is that FF (ability) doesn't cost resources. That means you're using it a lot more frequently than you might other offensive abilities (primarily because there is no opportunity cost except for time), which creates a very different gameplay loop to Mule Kick, etc. You can and should use FF so often that it notably more like an auto attack than other abilities (speaking from experience).

 

 

Exactly what I wanted to point. FF even "generates" ressources, and with the right stats, also heals oneself a bit.

 

Still its design makes it worse than auto-attack for Barbarian, Rogue and Cipher. Which restricts multiclass quite a bit.

 

I just wanted to make sure one isn't gimped when using it instead of a normal attacks, at least in most cases. However, it is true that it has an opportunity cost since it prevents the use of another ability.

 

The design is weird, but favors Shield users, which is nice because few melee builds favors shield (unless pure tanks) and because it is consistent with focus on Resolve.

It makes FF the most "defensive" of the Monk kits subclasses.

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It does cost resources especially if you want to use it often: if you use it with no curse on you it's 0 wounds. With every curse on you it costs +1 wounds. So the average cost may even be higher than Efficient Anguish's. You could also compare it to Stunning Surge which often costs 0 Mortification.

Besides that FF costs you health.

 

Anyway: the point was the comparison between PEN and dmg of fists (weapon) vs. Forbidden Fist (ability). In that context the cost doesn't matter so much as the Power Level scaling that is missing from auto-attacks with fists but not from ability attacks with fists.

Edited by Boeroer

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It does cost resources especially if you want to use it often: if you use it with no curse on you it's 0 wounds. With every curse on you it costs +1 wounds. So the average cost may even be higher than Efficient Anguish's. You could also compare it to Stunning Surge which often costs 0 Mortification.

Besides that FF costs you health.

 

Anyway: the point was the comparison between PEN and dmg of fists (weapon) vs. Forbidden Fist (ability). In that context the cost doesn't matter so much as the Power Level scaling that is missing from auto-attacks with fists but not from ability attacks with fists.

Tangent: how do you make sure that Stunning Surge crits? I tested it and found that it needed to crit vs. deflection (the fortitude "attack" can crit and it still costs resource). Deflection isn't that easy to lower so I avoided using the ability because I like consistency.

 

As for FF, of course it costs resources if you spam it, but that's not what I'm talking about. When you pace it properly it actually generates resources, as Galad pointed out. The cost is time and some self damage (which gets healed) for a high-pen, good damage, Tier-3 affliction causing attack that gives you a resource. It's a very different dynamic than other active abilities. The option to spam it for high cost in exchange for damage is just a bonus (that sometimes comes in clutch).

 

But as I said, I take your point about the comparison with auto attacks.

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My experience with the ability was that if you only used it without a curse on you (cost 0), the healing slightly trumped the damage incurred. Basically, the only opportunity cost was time. Used as soon as the curse expired.

Nerf Troubadour!

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It does cost resources especially if you want to use it often

 

with 30 resolve, lone wolf, 20 dex, 20 int, lvl 1 (PL1) no armor, i wasn't able to stack the curse, the duration was too short.

with any "i want to use FF" build, you should never have to spend wounds to use FF (maybe there are offensive ways to use FF, with low resolve and stacking FF as high as possible but i really don't see how it would be worth it)

If you build your character around it, FF heals you and you get a wound, its your spam button you use without thinking.

 

And if the curse lasts too long? Don't spend the wound, the dmg you take is too high.

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I found  Stunning Surge pretty (almost never autoattacked) spammable. And deflection it's not that hard to debuff : stunned -10, passively flanked (by dichotomus soul, other char or persistent distraction) -10, cap of the laughingstock -10. "Judged" from Magistrate's Cudgel +10 acc. That's already 40 points swing.  And there is also Tarn Respite (up to -10def). All pretty accessible from low levels. Later Scordeo's Edge is the king. You can also have extra roll (3 chances to crit) if you go with Sun and Moon. Or 8 rolls with blunderbusses. 

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Don't forget Enduring Dance (+3 to +12 ACC) and a SC Monk's Razor's Edge (up to +10 ACC) combined with what you said.

 

I indeed often use it with dual blunderbusses (mainly for stacking Resonant Touch on single enemies) or mortars. Both make sure you have plenty of attack rolls - and if only one of them crits you're good.

 

What I also like is a Rapier+modal (especially Rännig's Wrath) + Dagger combo with Swift Flurry/Hearbeat Drumming. I will mainly use Stunning Surge because it applies -10 deflection, it's a Full Attack that will omit the Rapier modal's +50% recvery but retain its +20 ACC bonus while the fast Dagger will determine my (short) recovery time - and I will have two chances of landing a crit with high ACC weapons. As soon as I will crit I get back all Mortification AND have a 50% chance that the attack will be repeated... and repeated... and repeated... ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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