Making better use of armor?

[Father Jyrgunkarrd]

I don't know if this is just me, but I have been unimpressed with armor in both Pillars 1 & 2. Tanking the numbers of actions a character can take in a given span of time seems like a bad trade in exchange for improved Deflection?

So I've just been using Clothing and... well, it just seems at face value to be much more optimal?  


Are there good ways of exploiting the heavier armor pieces? 

[Haplok]

Most armors don't provide Deflection, they give Armor Rating.

Meaning they protect you from Overpenetration (30% increased damage)  and, in optimal conditions and heavier/buffed versions, can also reduce incoming damage. Each AR point above enemy Penetration rating reduces damage by 25% (capped at 75%). It's not very easy to cause underpenetrations on Path of the Damned, where enemies have boosted PEN, but even there its possible - if you work on stacking AR. Barb Thick Skinned is +1, Unbroken Fighter with Shield +1, Fire Godlike is +1 when wounded. Paladin can raise it too, by quite a bit. Goldpacts get temporary high armor boost (works best combined with high defenses, so it lasts), there's also a high level Pally ability that stacks up to +3 for standing still, I believe (you can still use mobility active abilities, such as rogue Escape).

Then there are Wizard buffs, such as Spirit Shield and Ironskin.

 

As for action economy... its a tradeoff, sure. Some classes are less affected, for example Chanters, who gain new phrases regardless of armor recovery.

There are pets which significantly reduce the penalty (Abraham dog, Cutthroat Cosmo the pig). Fighter gets Armored Grace ability to further mitigate it. And you can sorta counter it with Recovery boosts: using dual weapons, Barbarian Frenzy, Monk Flurry or the ultimate recovery reduction: Streetfighter Heating Up/On the Edge bonuses (but you have to trigger those first).

Edited November 8, 2018 by Haplok

[MountainTiger]

POE1 armor mechanics make the damage reduction part pretty weak later in the game, but the penetration system makes AR quite powerful in POE2 for the reasons Haplok mentions.

 

In both games, some heavier armors have good unique enchantments.

[Boeroer]

Stacking AR as high as possible is very, very useful because a -3 underpenetration of enemies against you will lead to a 75% dmg reduction which in reality (due to double inversion of maluses) is even higher than 75%. So having crazy AR is great and totally worth it (if you get attacked in the first place). Being somewhere in between high and low feels a bit meh and in my opinion you can go for 0 recovery penalty once you have build up a bigger health pool instead of messing around with leather or padded or whatnot. But some unique armors have nice enchantments that make them worthwhile no matter their AR.

[thelee]

Stacking AR as high as possible is very, very useful because a -3 underpenetration of enemies against you will lead to a 75% dmg reduction which in reality (due to double inversion of maluses) is even higher than 75%. So having crazy AR is great and totally worth it (if you get attacked in the first place). Being somewhere in between high and low feels a bit meh and in my opinion you can go for 0 recovery penalty once you have build up a bigger health pool instead of messing around with leather or padded or whatnot. But some unique armors have nice enchantments that make them worthwhile no matter their AR.

 

At a certain mid-level point of AR, on PotD and upscaling, the main reason you'd go for moderate AR over cloth basically just boils down to avoiding overpenetration (because the enemy needs 12 PEN to overpen you on superb cloth, but a whopping 20 PEN to overpen you on superb medium armor), which is not nothing, but pales in comparison to the situation that boeroer and others mention that you can get significantly huge survivability boosts with heavy armor and/or AR buffs.  With upscaling/PotD it's sort of an arms race against the enemy, so unless you're investing a lot in AR, as boeroer says you can eventually get away with less and less armor because you're not really keeping up enough to protect yourself much anyway and your raw health and higher action rate matters more.

 

(i think spell damage might be easier to mitigate than enemy weapon attacks and might still mean significant utility from medium armor and such)

Edited November 8, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Yes, with spell damage it's a bit different. I was mostly arguing from a char's perspective who gets attacked by weapons.

 

I still don't like the PEN/AR system...

[Haplok]

Plus there are armors with Recovery penalty Reductions. The infamous Devil of Caroc Breastplate comes to mind (availability depends on PoE1 story choices/chosen history). That one is excellent for most characters, particularly ones depending on non-spell resources.

 

Miscreant's Leather has a recovery penalty reduction too, I believe - if you prefer your armor light.

[Boeroer]

I don't want to sound nitpicky, but no.

 

Not recovery penalty reduction. Plain recovery time reduction.

 

Both armors give you a bonus that reduces recovery time that's independent from the recovery penalty of your armor. May sound similar, bit this is important when it comes to calculating your final attack speed. It's not like:

 

"DoC has +35% base recovery penalty and an enchantment that reduces that by 10% = 25% recovery penalty."

 

Nope - Armored Grace and some pets do this (with different numbers), but not the enchantments of Miscreant's Leather or Devil of Caroc's Breastplate.

 

Instead with them it's like:

 

- Armor has +35% base recovery penalty and an echantment that gives you a -10% recovery time bonus.

 

That way you can actually get faster with Miscreant's Leather or Caroc's than without any armor:

 

Devil of Caroc:

+35% + Armored Grace --> +19% --> Pet --> +6% Recovery time

- 10% Recovery time from the enchantment = 6% - 10% = faster than naked.

 

Miscreant's Leather:

+20% + Pet --> +7% (already enough) + Armored Grace --> +0% (even better).

- 10% Recovery tiem from enchantment = 7% (or even 0%) - 10% = faster than naked

 

I know it's a bit complicated. And maybe unnecessary... Those enchantments don't mess with the penalty but directly with your recovery time. Armored Grace and pets like Cosmo, Abraham etc. mess with your recovery penalty.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[thelee]

Deadfire is really a game that you have to approach like a lawyer, paying attention to very very specific wording

[Killyox]

I played around a bit with Daze (basically tier 1 mage spell with high int/per build [illusionist]) and some armor buffs from spells/potions.

 

You can get an easy 7-10 "armor swing" that way even on potd. Works neat with effects that downgrade attacks to lower variant (crit to hit hit to graze etc)

 

It's good to have (armor) but it's best to not get hit at all in the first place

Edited November 10, 2018 by Killyox

[Boeroer]

Tell that to my Serafen with Barbaric Retaliation. He rocks so much when catching crits (sweating in his Patinated Plate) that you got to have pity with the attackers...

[Killyox]

Tell that to my Serafen with Barbaric Retaliation. He rocks so much when catching crits (sweating in his Patinated Plate) that you got to have pity with the attackers...

 

Do share the build for a decent pure class barb. In SSS thus far it didn't work too well for me. Maybe because 2 chanters make the game too easy and appear the rest to struggle hmm.

 

In general, share some singleclass builds as I will want to make potd #3 playthrough with singleclasses only.

[Boeroer]

I will once I finished my current playthrough. Short version: single class barb with Morning Star rocks.

[Verde]

Serafin as a Barb in Heavy Armor?! You monster...

[Boeroer]

Well at least I respect him enough to spell his name correctly, tehehehe.

[whimper]

I will once I finished my current playthrough. Short version: single class barb with Morning Star rocks.

Interesting. Do you think single-class barb does better than a devoted/barb multiclass (given that one's focusing on the morning star)? 

[Boeroer]

During late game: yes.

[Verde]

Well at least I respect him enough to spell his name correctly, tehehehe.

Lol, let's keep that between you and me.