Questions about "bash" shields

[DMorrow]

Hi everyone!

 

I think I read somewhere that the Tuotilo's Palm shield counts as an offhand weapon for the purposes of the Two Weapon Style passive due to the fact that it does "bash" damage. I assume the same is true for The Best Defense from the Seeker, Slayer, Survivor DLC? I am considering trying a variation of a streetfighter build along the lines of Myrtillo's Dueling Corsair (https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/99676-class-build-the-duelling-corsair/) that uses The Best Defense in the offhand instead of a dagger. My goal is to create a rogue that can function similarly to a shield-using riposte rogue from POE1. I have a couple of questions though that I hope the more experienced players on this forum might have answers for:

 

1) Does the shield count as an offhand weapon for the purposes of full attacks? Most importantly does it work with Gambit (i.e. do I get second hit and therefore a chance at a second crit that will allow Gambit to be fully refunded)?

 

2) If the shield counts as a weapon for the purposes of Two Weapon Style, does it also still count as a shield for the purposes of Weapon and Shield Style? In other words, can I benefit from both passives at once?

 

Thanks!

[whimper]

The answer to #2 is “yes” — you can benefit from both styles.

 

Haven’t looked at #1, but I’d expect the shield to count as weapons for the purpose of full attacks.

[Boeroer]

1. Yes

 

2. Yes

[DMorrow]

Awesome, thanks!

[protopersona]

Next logical question, is using bash shields actually worth it this time around? They were a loss in PoE1.

[Boeroer]

No. Because they get the attack speed bonus from Dual Wieldig and Two Weapon Speed. They didn't get that in PoE and that was the reason for them being worse than a non-bashing shield in most cases.

[Haplok]

They are the best for characters with mostly Primary attacks, who will skip the offhand attack anyway.

Particularly Soulblades, but also Monks and potentially even Fighters.

[Boeroer]

Why? Especially for Full Attacks bashing shields are nice. You'll lose some dmg but get an additional attack which might apply an affliction (rogue's strikes) or regain your resource (Stunning Surge). 

 

If you use Primary mostly you will see no difference to a normal shield.

 

Edit: brainfart - you will recover faster. So you have a point.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[protopersona]

Next logical question, is using bash shields actually worth it this time around?

 

No. Because they get the attack speed bonus from Dual Wieldig and Two Weapon Speed.

 

I'm confused. You say bash shields aren't worth using, then go on to explain it's because the bonuses stack together?

Edited October 22, 2018 by protopersona

[Boeroer]

Hah sorry. I somehow read "worse" and not "worth".

[Prince of Lies]

He meant that they are worth using. Whether you use primary attack abilities or full attack abilities, you will attack faster (+15% from dual wielding, +15% from two-weapon fighting). So higher DPS.

 

Not as good in terms of the defences you could get from a shield like Cadhu Scatlh.

[Kaylon]

In PoE1 the main hand had normal recovery, while the shield used dual wield recovery. In PoE2 both hands use the dual wield recovery.

 

In both games the bash attack suffered because of the lack of enchanting bonuses. You will be stuck with 7pen, low accuracy and low damage, meaning lots of grazes/misses and very low damage against high levels enemies. Tuotilo's Palm is an exception because it benefits from the Monastic Training bonus, however it has also lower base damage than a normal attack. 

 

Would you use an unenchanted weapon in your off hand for the defensive bonus?

[Boeroer]

In PoE the bash gained +1 ACC per char level because it was considered an attack ability. That made up for the missing ACC enchantment.

 

However bashing shields were only good if they had something special like proc on crit or hit. See Dragon's Maw and Badgradr's Barricade. The rest was bad (when talking about the bashing property).

 

I didn't check if the bash scales with Power Level in Deadfire like Carnage does. But so far the only "bashing" shields we got do have some useful enchantments that make them worthwhile. Still not a big fan of them though.

 

It seems to be easy to make dedicated offhand weapons with special features which can be enchanted with quality (see St. Drogga's Skull). So it should be possible to do something similar with offhand weapon-shields. Don't know why it's not.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[Prince of Lies]

Yeah.

 

But with, say, Magran's Blessing you get Fire Shield, plus a burning lash for the bashing damage (that can be improved). It by no means outperforms dual wielding weapons for damage, but is a healthy medium between dual wielding and weapon & shield. 

 

IIRC, I thought Bashing Shields did get +PL accuracy bonuses? I'll have to double check when I get home. 

[Archaven]

I use tuotillo palm but really put off by its low damage. But it does give you higher defense and another to hit chance for skills

[DMorrow]

I admit, I'm a bit surprised to come back a couple days later and see this thread still going, haha. I'm glad to see it sparked some interest/discussion!

 

It by no means outperforms dual wielding weapons for damage, but is a healthy medium between dual wielding and weapon & shield. 

 

This is what kind of what I'm hoping for. I'm not looking to maximize damage output so much as to be a decent offtank that deals respectable damage.

 

Really what I want is to create a rogue Watcher for a new play-through of POE1 and 2 that has good mental stats for roleplaying/dialogue checks (while still being effective in combat) and keeps a fairly consistent build across both games. The Yellow Flash build for POE1 largely fits the bill of what I'm looking for (I'll probably tweak the attributes a bit) and now I'm trying to figure out how to translate that into POE2. Using a bashing shield on a streetfighter seems like way to recreate the feel of a POE1 riposte rogue without sacrificing two-weapon full attacks. I haven't tried using one before though, so I appreciate everyone's input on the matter!

[Prince of Lies]

Just so you know, a lot of attribute checks for conversations and scripted interactions have (for the most part) been replaced with skills. Maxing out resolve no longer nets you more conversation options. 

 

The Yellow Flash build was a riposte build, right? A Fighter/Rogue multiclass build of some variety would probably fit your prerequisites. 

[MountainTiger]

If you're interested in dialogue and interaction options, my impression is that might (mostly interactions) and perception (both) are the main stats that get checked; otherwise, it's mostly skills. I'd be interested if anyone has done a proper analysis, though.

[DMorrow]

If you're interested in dialogue and interaction options, my impression is that might (mostly interactions) and perception (both) are the main stats that get checked; otherwise, it's mostly skills. I'd be interested if anyone has done a proper analysis, though.

 

 

Just so you know, a lot of attribute checks for conversations and scripted interactions have (for the most part) been replaced with skills. Maxing out resolve no longer nets you more conversation options. 

 

The Yellow Flash build was a riposte build, right? A Fighter/Rogue multiclass build of some variety would probably fit your prerequisites. 

 

Yeah, when it comes to attributes for dialogue checks I'm more concerned with POE1 then 2. But for roleplaying purposes I would like to keep my attribute spread consistent when I recreate the character in POE 2.

 

I am definitely considering the swashbuckler option too. But I still kind of like the idea of a pure streetfighter. Do you consider one to be significantly stronger than the other?

[Prince of Lies]

There's actually a lore explanation for changes made to the watcher. I won't spoil it, but if lore is the reason why you didn't want to change anything- you need not worry.

 

Swashbuckler will have more survivability and tanky-ness than a pure streetfighter. They get higher deflection which works better if you plan on doing a Riposte Build. Swashbucklers also have more consistent damage, while pure Streetfighters have higher burst damage.

 

Both are viable. What difficulty do you plan on playing with?

[Haplok]

It's difficult to compare the survivability of a swashbuckler (or holy slayer) with a pure streetfighter. That is a whole another level. Actually IMO rogues gain very little from staying pure.

But if you like living dangerously and plan for strong party support, you could also go shadowdancer (monk/streetfighter) for ultimate damage monster.

[Boeroer]

I think a SC Rogue could be very good if either Vanishing Strike and Gambit were cheaper (2 and 2 instead of 3 and 4) or the SC Rogue had the ability to get more Guile or to regain more Guile. That means that Gamit would cost 0 if it crit. I think that's ok if you look at all the other strikes you have. For example Crippling Strike does compareable dmg to Gambit beause of PL scaling but only costs 1 Guile and Arterial Strike even adds a great DoT effect. Gamit just adds whimpy additive dmg on hit and ok additive dmg on crit. That's nice against weak enemies but rel. meh against bosses.  

 

I already enjoy playing with Vanishing Strike very much. But you have to build around a certain playstyle. Vanishing Strike is very effective if you combine it with Assassin's Slippers and Backstab and Assassinate. You'll have a Full Attack + invisibility for 3 Guile. Other than other Full Attacks + Shadowing Beyond all attack rolls of the Full Attack will profit from Backstab + Assassinate because you will be invisible right after the first swing. And by all I als mean all AoE hits from mortars or Three Bells Through or Blast (Backstab only if you are near enough)! So it's a lot better than other Full Attack + Shadowing Beyond or auto-attack + Shadowing Beyond. If you like that sneaky playstyle of course. I do.

[Haplok]

It comes online rather late, though and you can't do it very often. The sneaky playstyle is costly Guile-wise.

[Boeroer]

That's why I said it should be either cheaper or a SC rogue should have the ability to regain Guile.

 

By the way if you like to play sneaky Assassin then eiuther Assassin/Priest of Skaen or Assassin/Wizard (with Brilliant Departure) are your thing. Two additional invisibilites per encounter + Assassinate with spells is better than SC Assassin atm.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Boeroer