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WTF happened to Xbox? Where are the REAL exclusives? "Console" and "timed" aka FAKE exclusives are NOT enough.


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#21
ktchong

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Huh. So you're one of the mysterious people who would cheer in a crowd for a publisher announcing exclusivity which both actively hurts consumer and the title in question (except for titles developed in-house, of course)

 

IMO, there is really no reason for a console to exist if it does not have real or true exclusives.

 

Microsoft had wanted to pursue a (self-defeating and stupid) console strategy of having no real exclusives. Which is why they got rid of all their first- and second-party developers: Bungie, Bioware, 2K, Epic, FASA, Ensemble, Lionhead, one after another, one way or another. That had been Microsoft's business strategy for Xbox. Microsoft thought Xbox could survive and thrive on multiplatform, multiplayer, and "fake" exclusives (= "console" exclusives that are also on the PC and "timed" exclusives.) Microsoft wrongly thought multiplatform games and third-party developers would carry Xbox.

 

Looking at the sale figures and how far Xbox One has fallen behind PS4, now we know for certain that Microsoft's console strategy was severely flawed and has crippled Xbox's competitiveness against Playstation.  Playstation has won the console war and defeated Xbox for this generation - and very likely the next generation as well, (because there won't be enough time for Microsoft to quickly turn out really good "AAA" exclusives for the next Xbox between now and the launch of the next Xbox in a year or so.)  I hope Microsoft has finally realized how important exclusives are to the ecosystem and competitiveness of a console.  Maybe now Microsoft has finally waken up, and they are taking actions to correct their past mistakes. Maybe that is why Microsoft is on a frenzy to buy studios and acquire first-party developers. Which is a complete turnaround from their previous (stupid) plan for Xbox.

 

Of course, it is good for me as a PC gamer for Microsoft to put out their "fake" exclusives on both Xbox and Windows - which means, there is absolutely no reason for me to ever consider buying an Xbox.  Let's be honest here: unless Xbox starts putting out real/true great exclusives that are NOT available on PC, I will NEVER even consider buying an Xbox.  On the other hand, now that I have bought my very first Playstation last year, (a PS4,) and I have been very happy with my decision to buy a PS4, I will almost certainly buy a PS5.  That is how Microsoft lost a console war.


Edited by ktchong, 10 October 2018 - 11:20 AM.


#22
Fenixp

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IMO, there is really no reason for a console to exist if it does not have real or true exclusives.

a) You can play all your games on a PC, cry me a river
b) Of course there's a reason for consoles to exist, and it's the same reason why they always existed and prospered - they're easy to get working, games are easy to get running and there's very little troubleshooting required. If you're not bothered by any of these things, good, you have more stuff to play on your PC, why even break a sweat?
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#23
SonicMage117

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IMO, there is really no reason for a console to exist if it does not have real or true exclusives.

Don't want to start a war but.. there are still a few other reasons in which consoles hold an unprecedented advantage over pc.

1.) Exclusive titles - Usually better developed than anything we can find on pc (which you already mentioned).

2.) Console ports are vastly superior to pc ports, look at Arkham Knight and Nier Automata, plenty if others as well. Probably because consoles ate still much easier to develop and optimize for.

3.) The wait for larger games such as GTA5, FFXV and Red Dead Redemption 2. PC gaymers are treated with afterthought, by the time they get the games, everyone else has moved on lol

4.) The communities don't die. This has been an issue in fighting games and racing games on pc, the communities always die within a few months. Consoles don't have this issue for whatever reason.

5.) Cool physical collectors editions that pc can't compete against



6.) Proprietary 4k blu-ray players built in



7.) The best controllers that will never work on pc (joystocks, arcade sticks, etc)
https://youtu.be/UOvN3iz3eXo


8.) Plug n play/EZ play portability (Switch is the perfect example. Vita and PS4 are another. Pc has a few things but they all suck so kinda pointless to mention them)


Probably a few others I'm forgetting but... Those are are good reasons meh

#24
AwesomeOcelot

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I don't rate the exclusives, I don't feel like I've been missing out not owning a Playstation. Xbox has never had must have exclusives. Nintendo has always had way more exclusives and they're highly rated.

 

PS4 had better hardware and was cheaper. If you look at failed consoles, highly successful consoles, the hardware, the release date, and the price are the most important things. Are they easy to develop for? Exclusives are more important if they aren't because the only good games are 1st party because 3rd party developers are having a hard time for the first few years, a console needs games on launch.

 

PC isn't competing with consoles. Microsoft should have leveraged their IP and tech to become the biggest game publisher on PC. They shouldn't have cannibalized their PC studios for Xbox, having a strong PC gaming platform could have supported Xbox. Microsoft have the capacity to waste incredible talent and wealth by being incredibly short-sighted and greedy, they've never wanted to compete on price or quality.



#25
SonicMage117

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I have a high end pc, a mid end pc and a PS4. I feel like I'm missing out by not having a Switch. So many amazing Japanese games with English subtitles/vocals that make it to Switch but never make it to pc. It's very sad for pc gamers indeed.

Add to that Zelderz, Bros Smashin Bros, Mario AC Odyssey edition and more. Exclusives are totally worth the money spent on a console though, usually the best games of the year.

One thing we can all agree on though is that they'll never stop making consoles as consoles help to push pc forward anyway.

#26
Night Stalker

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I do not understand why consumers want exclusives to exist.

Isn't the best scenario that we can play what we want, anywhere at anytime?

How do we as consumers win with games being shackled to a specific platform?

The only good thing about exclusives is that some games that might not have been funded otherwise do get funded, but even then if you own the platform you only get to know of its existence.
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#27
Mamoulian War

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The only good thing about exclusives is that some games that might not have been funded otherwise do get funded...

 

That is for me good enough reason to accept the exclusives. Newest God of War would never exist in current AAA universe in it's current state without SONY backing it. And I rather pay 300EUR for extra console to be able to play such an exquisite and refined game, than to give a single penny/cent/insert_any_random_currency to the likes of EA/Ubisoft/Activision for their "Player Choice" bull**** in lootboxes and other types of predatory Microtransactions.

 

The more such good games are released for the console, the lower is your initial investment in the end.


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#28
HoonDing

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Xbox does what Soni.



#29
SonicMage117

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I do not understand why consumers want exclusives to exist.

Isn't the best scenario that we can play what we want, anywhere at anytime?

How do we as consumers win with games being shackled to a specific platform?

The only good thing about exclusives is that some games that might not have been funded otherwise do get funded, but even then if you own the platform you only get to know of its existence.

(True) Exclusives are great for the consumer and the industry for a number of reasons.

The most obvious is competition, it pushes each console parent company to push themselves and this also ricochets to the pc population of indie/aaa exclusive studios who only evolve because consoles exists in the first place.

The second being choice and social variation, you get different fanbases, communities built up because of an exclusive - Zelda, Halo and most recently Spider-Man are all phenomenal examples of this fact.

Another great thing about exclusives is the ability to show the community that hardware isn't that important as pc eletists suggest, the fact that a "weak" console can run games that look as great as high-end pc's (thanks to optimization and advanced developer tools precisely made for the console of choice) is not only a great feat for the developer and console parent company but a great testiment that developers don't rely on hardware but software updates to get better looking games.

Lastly, exclusives offer validation for buying a "stupid plastic box" though pc eletists will get angry when you bring up the fact that their ports are better than pc ports 95% of the time. So much for master race. And that's coming from someone who's primary is Steam and GOG hehe

Anyway, I think those are reasons enough to why console exclusives should and WILL always exist. Though we do have PSnow (which is by every point, horrible) which allows you to run games on your pc at a variating fps, yeah, that bad. So avoid the crap official branded Sony emulation which is equally as horrible as ay other emulator on pc out there. They never learn.

#30
AwesomeOcelot

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the fact that a "weak" console can run games that look as great as high-end pc's

That hasn't been possible for a very long time. Not since the 90's. Consoles really fell behind when the 360 was released. Just in terms of resolution and frame rate PC has been way ahead. Lets be realistic here, high GPUs have cost as much as consoles in that time as well. On PC you can either crank up our fps to 144+ or set it to 60 and play at 4K. Consoles targetted 30 for a long time. What may be confusing you is that exclusives obviously can't have PC comparisons, and artistry does not equal fidelity.

#31
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the fact that a "weak" console can run games that look as great as high-end pc's

That hasn't been possible for a very long time. Not since the 90's. Consoles really fell behind when the 360 was released. Just in terms of resolution and frame rate PC has been way ahead. Lets be realistic here, high GPUs have cost as much as consoles in that time as well. On PC you can either crank up our fps to 144+ or set it to 60 and play at 4K. Consoles targetted 30 for a long time. What may be confusing you is that exclusives obviously can't have PC comparisons, and artistry does not equal fidelity.
That's only true from a buyers perspective if we are counting polygons per pixel. Perhaps you didn't read the whole context but it's no longer about shaders, pipelines, polygons, resolution and all these things that pc gamers are usually obsessed with when buying a new gpu. Rather now, it's about what developers bring about while developing new techniques when developing art styles. This is mainly why a PS4 game can look as good as as a ultra-high end pc. Developer tools and great artists can go a long way and optimization whether in graphics or performance is something that even the best pc games often lack.

Sony and Nintendo are a shining example of publishers who care enough to fund their developers enough to optimize in the right way, squeezing every drop of power, milking a console by its "potential" teet. That's probably why PS4 games are on top of the list for graphics as of now. I mean, we have yet to see a 4K game on PC which looks as good as a PS4 exclusive at 4K and even when it does, it lacks the higher quality animations and what not. That's the power of creating in-house engines, superior funding, great artists and highest optimization teams out there. Pc will never have that, unfortunately. I mean, we can dream...

Edited by SonicMage117, 12 October 2018 - 08:19 PM.


#32
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I mean, we have yet to see a 4K game on PC which looks as good as a PS4 exclusive at 4K and even when it does, it lacks the higher quality animations and what not.

I just can't agree with you at all on that one.You contradict yourself in that sentence because you know that's not true. I'm not sure about the animations, you could argue there some of the best in the industry but I don't think you could argue they're a step above.
 

Pc will never have that, unfortunately. I mean, we can dream...

At certain times in the past the PC has been a cut above, UT/Quake, when 3DFx arrived, then Nvidia, Half-Life 2 animation quality and physics (could not run properly on consoles), Crysis (had to be cut considerably to run on consoles). Physics effects have always been a PC strong point because console CPUs have almost always been awful. There were definitely numerous games in the 90's and 00's that could only run on high end PCs, if they had ports they were stripped down and ****. Many mutli-platform games have high and ultra settings that have effects unavailable to consoles.

 

PC exclusives in terms of pushing graphics have been very few for a long time, exceptional gains in graphics architecture has not been there on PC or console for a decade. Metro: Exodus and Squadron 42 spring to mind as games on PC that will be far better. Real Time Ray Tracing is going to be revolutionary, but it's not going to be on console for a long time.



#33
SonicMage117

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I just can't agree with you at all on that one.You contradict yourself in that sentence because you know that's not true. I'm not sure about the animations, you could argue there some of the best in the industry but I don't think you could argue they're a step above.

How exactly did I contradict myself? If you don't know anything about console optimization vs pc optimization then I suppose that may make it hard to understand. Most pc eletists do indeed have a hard time accepting that a $300-400 console could somehow have games that are on par with a high end pc but that's due to the parent company (Sony and Nintendo) giving first-party (and in some case third party studios) superior development tools to the teams. You don't have to agree with it, just ask developers or research on youtube developer interviews and you'll see it's true.

At certain times in the past the PC has been a cut above, UT/Quake, when 3DFx arrived, then Nvidia, Half-Life 2 animation quality and physics (could not run properly on consoles), Crysis (had to be cut considerably to run on consoles). Physics effects have always been a PC strong point because console CPUs have almost always been awful. There were definitely numerous games in the 90's and 00's that could only run on high end PCs, if they had ports they were stripped down and ****. Many mutli-platform games have high and ultra settings that have effects unavailable to consoles.

PC exclusives in terms of pushing graphics have been very few for a long time, exceptional gains in graphics architecture has not been there on PC or console for a decade. Metro: Exodus and Squadron 42 spring to mind as games on PC that will be far better. Real Time Ray Tracing is going to be revolutionary, but it's not going to be on console for a long time.

And yet in the same era, high end pc's was not able to do the lighting and texture mapping work that consoles could.

PC wasn't always ahead of the curve, here's what I'm referring to:
https://youtu.be/q0WsS8R93_Y
^Sega giving superior tools to a third party studio is a great example, and there are many more. Optimizations have always gone a long way.

But I was talking about this generation, pc's are seeming to be more and more like a lamborgini without wheels and you have consoles that are like a ford focus but they seem to win the race in these terms. If you compare one of Sony's latest exclusives in 4k with one of pc's greatest looking games at 4k in ultra settings, the poor pc game would probably not look as good or the PS4 would be on an evel level with it. What does it prove? That software isn't limited by hardware, from a technical standpoint, on paper it is but in coding, it isn't - it's never been. We just didn't have the tools until recent and that makes all the difference in the world.

I don't doubt that the PC version of the new Metro will blow away any third party AAA console game away but by the time that comes out, Sony will probably have a better looking exclusive coming out. They just keep getting better and better. Right now as it stands, Sony is ahead of pc in graphics on a ultra-low end gpu, as someone who plays on a 1080ti, my consoles still blow me away :) Luckily though, gaming isn't the only thing I do on my pc so I don't ever feel too depressed about it or regret my purchase, plus I like to play everything, even colorful 2D indies so that puts the horsepower to good work too.

#34
AwesomeOcelot

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That's your opinion about the artistry of the game, not about the fidelity. It's not about optimisation. Consoles gain very little through optimisation to the GPU, they gain a lot for the CPU, even more before Vulkan and DX12, but the CPU is so under powered that it doesn't even compete with a mid range Intel CPU. You experience games differently on a console than a PC, you're further away from the screen, the FOV is wider.

 

I can say Deadfire is one of the best looking games I've ever played, I can say that about games on every generation of console, artistically but that's not the same as fidelity. In terms of fidelity PC is way ahead, it's not even close. In terms of artistry then that's just your opinion, and it has nothing to do wit the power or optimisation of the hardware. If you're suggesting the fidelity is better on consoles then that's just delusional because it's not even close.



#35
SonicMage117

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It's not opinion to say that a weak-end console gets good enough optimization which keeps art/graphics in exclusives up to par with AAA multi-platform games. This has been been hit and miss in the past but for this generation, it is especially true.

I'm guessing you don't own a PS4 Pro or a high end pc, because you're basically feeding me a lie, one that's specifically already proven wrong by this generations games. If everybody who didn't own these consoles and a high end didn't agree with what I'm saying then maybe it could be registered and dismissed as bias/opinion but you've already dismissed the Soul Reaver video which proved games could look better on consoles due to developing tools, keep in mind there is a sacrifice, 60fps is sacrificed to 30fps whoch is the catch bit that's how this cheat for performance vs fidelity is often granted.

Okay, I'm going to go a bit further with this I can literally see more detail, from pores on characters faces and threads on clothing in PS4 games on like Spider-Man, Uncharted 4 and God Of War than I can on any AAA multi-platform PC on ultra settings. If you fimd it hard to believe, I'd recommend doing a side by side comparison on 4K screens or a Digital Foundry video to see what I'm talking about...

Or you can learn more by watching, in which explains what I've been saying in a better way:

In which most pc gamers still, for some reason, have a problem accepting that PS4 exclusives are the only games that get get upgraded since E3 reveals. Again, this is due to developer tools. Familiarity with old equipment and stability development process trumps new hardware with a differentiation to speed but consoles have have always been falsely locked into the other side of this, even moreso now because they have x86 architecture which doesn't really change anything for how Sony's development tools work for exclusive titles and how development tools bring about milkimg the hardware. Sony literally keeps their most advanced dev tools for exclusivity deals as they always have.

The graphical/detail upgrades for Spider-Man in the video isn't a lie, especially when playing in 4K is a great testemant to these statements. This indicates that the human eye cannot pick oyt the things that lack (the reflections on mirrors, cars and the buildings are static, literally) but they do pick out the greater details that are on oar with the high end pc running a game at maximum settings, and some details in the console exclusive outdoing actual detail. Ialways found this to be quite interestimg but as said before, new tricks and techniques are being created, developed and so on.

Edited by SonicMage117, 13 October 2018 - 07:23 AM.


#36
AwesomeOcelot

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60fps is sacrificed to 30fps whoch is the catch bit that's how this cheat for performance vs fidelity is often granted.

 

30 frames per second is dog **** and massive cost to fidelity. You can take that out of the equation and you're still wrong.

 

Okay, I'm going to go a bit further with this I can literally see more detail, from pores on characters faces and threads on clothing in PS4 games on like Spider-Man, Uncharted 4 and God Of War than I can on any AAA multi-platform PC on ultra settings.

 

That's a stylistic choice to do with colour and contrast, not performance or optimisation. You are trying to say that these games look a lot better than other 2018 games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Hellblade, or Far Cry 5 on the Xbox One X and that's just not true. They look even better on the PC.



#37
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"console exclusive games look way better on console"

 

-SonicMage117


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#38
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30 frames per second is dog **** and massive cost to fidelity. You can take that out of the equation and you're still wrong.

It's not cost of graphical fidelity, it's a development choice for the platform, when people have a low end pc, they have a choice to up the graphical settings by lowering framerate or resolution so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If people have no problem running a cinematic experience game like Detroit, that doesn't make the game somehow graphically inferior to a pc game with lower quality texture just because that pc game has the abikity to run in 60fps or an unlocked frame rate, that's the eletist mindset that always ends up backfiring on the master race community.

I'm curious, can you explain how exactly how I'm wrong instead of the usual "I can't accept it so you're wrong" per forum reply?

That's a stylistic choice to do with colour and contrast, not performance or optimisation. You are trying to say that these games look a lot better than other 2018 games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Hellblade, or Far Cry 5 on the Xbox One X and that's just not true. They look even better on the PC.

This has nothing to do with stylizing the graphics, I'm not talking about comparing a static cel-shaded console game to a photo-realistic pc game maxed out but 2 games from the same genre, with the same graphics style, the same features but one is a 2016 exclusive title, the other is a AAA multiplatform third party game.

I take it you're not going to watch the videos I recommended since you've made up your mind

Uncharted 4 came out in 2016 and is still better looking and possessing more fidelity than Shadow Of The Tomb Raider. Stop lol Just because time has passed, doesn't mean that third-party developers have evolved their techniques, dev tool software have updated so of course it wouldn't be true for right now.

Uncharted 4 having a further draw distance, more reflection shaders, detail in general, better texture mapping than Shadow Of The Tomb Raider maxed out on pc isn't a lie or an exaggeration, anybofy with eyes can see it:
https://youtu.be/N-WTHlM2fN0
Point being that first party resources do so much for the developer, more than pc gamers care to admit. You want a game to hold up well for years after it comes out? Get Sony or Nintendo to publish your games, don't go multiplatform because you'll be regressing rather than progressing. Another example of how third party tools are at disadvantage on pc are the Assassins Creed fiasco, there are many more but I just pulled one out of the hat. This is why first party support is so important.

Right now Spider-Man is the best looking game I've seen on the market, and I've been playing Shadow Of The Tomb Raider on max settings on pc and no, it doesn't look all that better than Rise Of The Tomb Raider. You're lying to yourself if you think that it didn't have downgrades (comparing from the last game) worth mentioning...
https://youtu.be/pjznpFYcCGo
^For example, her face, equipment and clothes are actually less detailed in Shadow Of The Tomb Raider. So that is a thing, console exclusives from Nintendo and Sony are naturally getting better, I'm talking about exclusives from PS4 Pro specifically, Xbox One X is basically a low-end pc with pc dev tools, it literally runs Windows 10. That's far different from the superior dev tools that Sony and Nintendo give their first party studios and/or third party who offer exclusive support.

Edited by SonicMage117, 13 October 2018 - 08:07 AM.


#39
SonicMage117

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I suppose if you guys want to put words in my mouth or mock me but I'd have to be a fool to say otherwise since so much evidence supoorts what I've been saying hehe :)

Mocking me doesn't make the proof of videos like this somehow vanish or become irrelevant but have fun!


Though, I mean, this is a Crpg forum meaning that most members here are biased towards pc. I am truly neutral and just giving credit where it's due.

Edited by SonicMage117, 13 October 2018 - 08:19 AM.


#40
AwesomeOcelot

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I didn't play Soul Reaver in the 90's, I remember playing Soul Reaver 2 and not liking it. So I couldn't really comment on that comparison before looking into it.

 

The PC is a straight port of the PS version. The two characters in the in-engine cutscene of that comparison are updated models, the game was released 6 months after the other versions. Most of the models in the game did not get an update, and the extra detail is not about PC performance. Soul Reaver is a terrible PC port.

 

DF Retro: Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver - A Classic Revisited on PS1/PC/Dreamcast!

 

Soul Reaver wasn't the best looking PC game of 1999. I notice you didn't decide to pick Quake III for comparison.


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