# [Obsidian] Inspect/Suggestion on current Armor system

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So we have some small brain storm on builds and we believe there are definitely some flaws to the current AR system, I made the follow two suggestion with reason followed.

1. Change AR reduction to a separate multiplier. So if we have 3 more AR than enemy's Pen, it should be 100 dam * 0.25 = 25 dam instead of using double inversion.

• Reason: Imagining the below case: If you have 3 more AR than enemy's Pen, a enemy did 100 damage to you, with the current double inversion formula, 75% damage reduction will be: 0.75/(1 - 0.75) * 100% = -300%, so the final damage you get is 100 / (1 - (-300%)) = 25, sounds OK right? But then if you are a helwalker and u take extra 50% damage, is the final damage u get 25 * 1.5 = 37.5? No, because it is 100 / (1 - 50% - (-300%)) = 28.5, you only take (28.5 - 25) / 25 = 14% extra damage.
• If we apply AR reduction as a separate multplier, without helwalker penaly, the damage is still: 100 x 0.25 = 25. And with helwalker penalty it is 100 x 1.5 x 0.25 = 37.5. It seems harsh but you can still try to neutralize it with other additive damage reductions like belt of the undying. And it makes such extra damage penalty a really penalty, with current system it looks like a clutter.

2. Reduce the armor reduction %. Currently every extra AR equals to -25% damage reduction, so 1/-25%, 2/-50%, 3+/-75%. My suggestion is tune it to 1/-25%, 2/-40%, 3+/-55%.

• Reason: It's very simple reason, just because heavy armor rules DF, everything becomes so tanky with high AR, and the game becomes boring when every combat becomes a Pen/AR competition. You cannot kill a boss if it has too much AR, and you are invincible if you have too much AR, it's just boring isn't it?

With the new DLC coming, and since it's a combat oriental DLC, I really appreciate if the Devs can pay attention to this issue, and we all here are to make the game more fun and challenging. Any suggestion will be welcomed, as this is only my opinion.

Edited by dunehunter
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If we’re fixing this, shouldn’t we fix DoTs that kill faster on a Graze and/or with high Resolve as well?

Or the fact that virtually every tooltip provides misleading information, or Crits that deal less damage than Hits on weapons with Blunted Criticals...

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

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If we’re fixing this, shouldn’t we fix DoTs that kill faster on a Graze and/or with high Resolve as well?

Or the fact that virtually every tooltip provides misleading information, or Crits that deal less damage than Hits on weapons with Blunted Criticals...

I thought they fixed this with the INT/DoT bug, or maybe not?

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Didn’t they fix the INT stuff, like, really early on? I’m going by memory here but it was either for release or in the first patch. IIRC the graze/RES stuff was discussed relatively recently on these boards.

Appreciate I might be missing something here.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

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Didn’t they fix the INT stuff, like, really early on? I’m going by memory here but it was either for release or in the first patch. IIRC the graze/RES stuff was discussed relatively recently on these boards.

Appreciate I might be missing something here.

They fixed the low INT high DoT damage issue in the last patch. I didn’t test if high Resolve still result in high DoT received damage tho.

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Ah, my bad. Thought that has been fixed earlier.

Agree with you that armor should be fixed too.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

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Ah, my bad. Thought that has been fixed earlier.

Agree with you that armor should be fixed too.

DF's armor system is absolute the way to go, the flaw in PoE 1 Armor system is unavoidable, as a flat damage reduction will always be good at tanking trash mobs but worse at boss. DF armor system is better but I believe there are rooms to improve. And these suggestions are made by us who have played the game more than devs do, so we know the game better.

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• If we apply AR reduction as a separate multplier, without helwalker penaly, the damage is still: 100 x 0.25 = 25. And with helwalker penalty it is 100 x 1.5 x 0.25 = 37.5. It seems harsh but you can still try to neutralize it with other flat damage reductions.

What are other flat damage reductions? Oh, and AR reduction isn't flat.

We should also make HW's damage bonus a real multiplier not just another additive.

as a flat damage reduction will always be good at tanking trash mobs but worse at boss.

Bosses harder than trash mobs? Unacceptable! I don't want that. I want to autoattack through bosses and complain on forum they're too easy.

Vancian =/= per rest.

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@hilfazer like the -10% melee damage from belt of the undying, and from one upgrade of griffon blade. Sorry I shouldn’t use the word flat, it makes things confusing, what I mean if it is calculated additively.

I mean if we make AR reduction a multiplier, HW’s received extra damage can still be compensated by these gears.

Edited by dunehunter
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If we’re fixing this, shouldn’t we fix DoTs that kill faster on a Graze and/or with high Resolve as well?

Or the fact that virtually every tooltip provides misleading information, or Crits that deal less damage than Hits on weapons with Blunted Criticals...

So I did some small test on this, have Serafen cast Disintegration on two character, one has 4 Resolve we call him A, one has 25 Resolve B, A get 380 damage from the spell while B only takes less than 200 damage, 120 damage on graze. So I guess this is fixed.

Edited by dunehunter
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@OP

An interesting consideration.

I previously thought about multiplicative vs additive scaling when playing other ARPGs like Diablo 3 and came to conclusion (of mine) that multiplicative is excellent for calculating defense but less so for attacks.

To elaborate, multiplicative approach when calculating dmg received will avoid situations where it is possible to stack damage reduction to achieve 100% reduction (god mode). However, when considering dmg, multiplicative will lead to exponential dmg scaling. Unless Im mistaken, thats how Empower handles the dmg increase as well. ARPGs like Diablo 3 and Path of Exile have their gamers achieve in-game DPS of millions and above due to the multiplicative nature of dmg calculations.

Personally, I have 2 points I want to make.

One, I still believe that an additive method will work better for a CRPG as it keeps damage in a more controlled range so that balancing can be handled easier. However, Deadfire is imo already having an identity crisis of trying to be both a CRPG and an ARPG. Slowly but surely ARPG elements are showing up like low% procs, adding of filler encounters... In patch 3.0, they even added a kill-cam for crying out loud. So the additive-only-approach ship has long since sailed, so I guess balancing through multiplicative means might not be too bad.

Two, as long as Obs associate increasing HP and defense of enemies as the main avenue for difficulty, the experience of draggy-slogfest-ish combat will always exist. Unfortunately, I believe this is inherently a resource limitation on the part of Obs. As this requires a relook into most encounters to give more emphasis to terrain advantage, enemy composition and even specific ai decision trees amongst other things. While I don't think difficulty is handled in a very good way currently, I guess I can empathize (in my limited view) on how tough it is to design proper difficulty.

Edited by mosspit
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@OP

An interesting consideration.

I previously thought about multiplicative vs additive scaling when playing other ARPGs like Diablo 3 and came to conclusion (of mine) that multiplicative is excellent for calculating defense but less so for attacks.

To elaborate, multiplicative approach when calculating dmg received will avoid situations where it is possible to stack damage reduction to achieve 100% reduction (god mode). However, when considering dmg, multiplicative will lead to exponential dmg scaling. Unless Im mistaken, thats how Empower handles the dmg increase as well. ARPGs like Diablo 3 and Path of Exile have their gamers achieve in-game DPS of millions and above due to the multiplicative nature of dmg calculations.

Personally, I have 2 points I want to make.

One, I still believe that an additive method will work better for a CRPG as it keeps damage in a more controlled range so that balancing can be handled easier. However, Deadfire is imo already having an identity crisis of trying to be both a CRPG and an ARPG. Slowly but surely ARPG elements are showing up like low% procs, adding of filler encounters... In patch 3.0, they even added a kill-cam for crying out loud. So the additive-only-approach ship has long since sailed, so I guess balancing through multiplicative means might not be too bad.

Two, as long as Obs associate increasing HP and defense of enemies as difficulty, the experience of draggy-slogfest-ish combat will always exist. Unfortunately, I believe this is inherently a resource limitation on the part of Obs. As this requires a relook into most encounters to give more emphasis to terrain advantage, enemy composition and even specific ai decision trees amongst other things. While I don't think difficulty is handled in a very good way currently, I guess I can empathize on how tough it is to design proper difficulty.

Honestly I don't think this change will make the encounters too easy, because Players will try to reach enough Penetration against enemy AR anyway, it is the enemies who are passively fighting Player's team, that cannot get enough Penetration against Players. Like if you have a character with 20+ AR, enemies usually don't have enough tools to reduce your armor, or increase his pen. But if you are fighting high AR bosses, there are so many tools, you can choose to increase PEN, or find a weak armor type against target, or use RAW damage type.

At least my suggestion 2 is very viable, even we don't change AR reduction to a separate multiplier, reduce high AR effectiveness can also make late game a bit tougher as a lot post is complaining late game too easy.

Edited by dunehunter
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@OP

An interesting consideration.

I previously thought about multiplicative vs additive scaling when playing other ARPGs like Diablo 3 and came to conclusion (of mine) that multiplicative is excellent for calculating defense but less so for attacks.

To elaborate, multiplicative approach when calculating dmg received will avoid situations where it is possible to stack damage reduction to achieve 100% reduction (god mode). However, when considering dmg, multiplicative will lead to exponential dmg scaling. Unless Im mistaken, thats how Empower handles the dmg increase as well. ARPGs like Diablo 3 and Path of Exile have their gamers achieve in-game DPS of millions and above due to the multiplicative nature of dmg calculations.

Personally, I have 2 points I want to make.

One, I still believe that an additive method will work better for a CRPG as it keeps damage in a more controlled range so that balancing can be handled easier. However, Deadfire is imo already having an identity crisis of trying to be both a CRPG and an ARPG. Slowly but surely ARPG elements are showing up like low% procs, adding of filler encounters... In patch 3.0, they even added a kill-cam for crying out loud. So the additive-only-approach ship has long since sailed, so I guess balancing through multiplicative means might not be too bad.

Two, as long as Obs associate increasing HP and defense of enemies as the main avenue for difficulty, the experience of draggy-slogfest-ish combat will always exist. Unfortunately, I believe this is inherently a resource limitation on the part of Obs. As this requires a relook into most encounters to give more emphasis to terrain advantage, enemy composition and even specific ai decision trees amongst other things. While I don't think difficulty is handled in a very good way currently, I guess I can empathize on how tough it is to design proper difficulty.

Honestly I don't think this change will make the encounters too easy, because Players will try to reach enough Penetration against enemy AR anyway, it is the enemies who are passively fighting Player's team, that cannot get enough Penetration against Players. Like if you have a character with 20+ AR, enemies usually don't have enough tools to reduce your armor, or increase his pen. But if you are fighting high AR bosses, there are so many tools, you can choose to increase PEN, or find a weak armor type against target, or use RAW damage type.

At least my suggestion 2 is very viable, even we don't change AR reduction to a separate multiplier, reduce high AR effectiveness can also make late game a bit tougher as a lot post is complaining late game too easy.

Can you elaborate on where did you get the idea that I think that your suggestions will make encounters easy? It might be the way I was putting forth my thoughts, but the idea that said change will make the game easier never crossed my mind.

Edited by mosspit
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I agreed with @mosspit

1. Multiplicative damage reduction

With upper and lower bound will completely fix issue for current armor system
* I will set max damage reduction to 60% (no matter  armor or graze or DW) and min DM reduction to 0% to prevent negative math
* Plus max damage bonus to 300% and lower damage bonus to 0%

Solo PotD builds: The Glanfathan Soul Hunter (Neutral seer. Dominate and manipulate your enemies), Harbinger of Doom (Dark shaman. Burn and sacrifice, yourself and enemies for Skaen sake)

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