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So...No New Companions


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#41
house2fly

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The sidekicks seem more interesting specifically because they aren't explored. Fassina is an apprentice wizard who doesn't like it and is in a bad mood. Rekke is an arsonist who got deported and is good with languages. Ydwin is a Dracula gag. There is nothing sthat makes these character concepts intrinsically more interesting than, say, a godlike who loathes the gods for making her the way she is and exploited a loophole in her country's laws to join an all-male paladin order, or an ethnic Huana who works for Rauatai as an assassin, or a fanatical priest on a mission to collect souls
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#42
the_dog_days

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.

 

Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.


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#43
ThacoBell

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The relationship system was Obsidian shooting themselves in the foot. Its not really all that interesting, and its complexity is preventing them from making more/better companions. Sidekincks were really a waste of time.

I think "shooting themselves in the foot" is a little strong.

 

First, Pillars 1 had too many companions. Understandably, they "had" to cover all the classes, so 11 companions makes sense from a certain perspective, but that justification doesn't hold up in Deadfire due to multiclassing.

 

Second, "interesting" is completely subjective. Yes, the Pillars 1 crew had some witty banters, but I do think there's more depth to it in Deadfire. Maybe that's not your thing and that's ok, but I don't think it was a mistake or a failure.

 

Third, as someone who has ditched Xoti for a hireling, I can 100% confirm that sidekicks have value. They may not be as vocal as companions, but they aren't mute. They don't come out of the box 1 level behind, never to catch up. They don't share assets with ship crew members.

 

Where I do agree with you is that the deeper companinon relationship system isn't finished baking yet. It needs more work. And they defintely need to go back to their "no romance unless it can be done well" policy.

 

Exceot that the companions AREN'T deeper or more interesting than in PoE1. All the relationship thing has done is make me read, "Aloth raises an eyebrow." About 5,000 times. This adds NOTHING to his character.


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#44
Purudaya

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.

 

Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

 

 

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well. 

When Josh Sawyer said that the team was "very aware" of the Ydwin fanbase (I'm not really a Ydwin fan, but to each their own) when asked about future companion content, I think it was reasonable to assume that they were looking at giving at least that sidekick an upgrade. 

We now know he was just talking about tacking on a handful of non-interactive lines in BoW, but it definitely didn't sound like meatier content was off the table at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

The relationship system was Obsidian shooting themselves in the foot. Its not really all that interesting, and its complexity is preventing them from making more/better companions. Sidekincks were really a waste of time.

I think "shooting themselves in the foot" is a little strong.

 

First, Pillars 1 had too many companions. Understandably, they "had" to cover all the classes, so 11 companions makes sense from a certain perspective, but that justification doesn't hold up in Deadfire due to multiclassing.

 

Second, "interesting" is completely subjective. Yes, the Pillars 1 crew had some witty banters, but I do think there's more depth to it in Deadfire. Maybe that's not your thing and that's ok, but I don't think it was a mistake or a failure.

 

Third, as someone who has ditched Xoti for a hireling, I can 100% confirm that sidekicks have value. They may not be as vocal as companions, but they aren't mute. They don't come out of the box 1 level behind, never to catch up. They don't share assets with ship crew members.

 

Where I do agree with you is that the deeper companinon relationship system isn't finished baking yet. It needs more work. And they defintely need to go back to their "no romance unless it can be done well" policy.

 

Exceot that the companions AREN'T deeper or more interesting than in PoE1. All the relationship thing has done is make me read, "Aloth raises an eyebrow." About 5,000 times. This adds NOTHING to his character.

 

 

 

You could even argue that PoE2 companions have less depth. In PoE1, I was able to sift through Grieving Mother's memories and decide whether she should be forgiven for her actions, was able to help Aloth choose between suppressing or reconciling the split in his soul/personality, talk at length with Durance and Eder and either reinforce or sow doubt in their respective faiths, decide whether to help or deter the Devil of Caroc on her path of revenge, and on and on.

In PoE2, the majority of the companions are static. The game strongly hints that you'll be able to persuade an increasingly conflicted and doubtful Maia away from the RDC only to have her turn out to be a blind follower no matter everything else that's happened. Eder, Pallegina, and Serafen don't grow, they just have problems that you help solve (and briefly, at that). Heck, even taking Eder and Xoti to the Burning Bridge - while an excellent level in an excellent DLC - doesn't deliver the narrative payoff you might expect from a character development standpoint.

I wish Obsidian would draw half as much from Mask of the Betrayer as they do from Fallout: NV in informing their approach to narrative design. Deadfire is still a great game, but it's a bummer that I play it more for the worldbuilding and combat than for the characters. That's why I was holding out hope for more - maybe the remaining DLCs will yet add some much needed depth, but I think "a few extra lines" is probably the more likely approach.
 


Edited by Purudaya, 15 September 2018 - 09:04 AM.

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#45
InsaneCommander

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Did not even took in the first game any companions, always crafted my own ppl, cuz they are just plain better statswise.

 

Yes, but they don't come naked and drunk. :p



#46
Moriendor

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I don't really mind no new companions. I'm the kind of player who likes to stick with a tight-knit group of adventurer buddies for my party. It is already kind of "annoying" in part 1 and 2 of PoE that -as a completionist- you "have to" swap out companions for their story arcs (not knowing in advance how long you have to drag them along).

 

So, I'm good... when I'm going to finally get around to playing the game next year after the final DLC has been released, my main party will be Eder, Aloth, Pallegina, Xoti, moi.

I don't even want to swap out anyone for new companions "all the time".


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#47
the_dog_days

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.

 

Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

 

 

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well. 

 

The Fig campaign, Josh's twitter/Something Awful, in video interviews, and I'm pretty sure here on the forums. It got reiterated constantly during the crowd funding and dev time.


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#48
InsaneCommander

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Honestly, the companion quests should have just been them finding out the truth about the gods and how they deal with it. Surely Xoti's religious mission would be affected when she finds out she's doing it for a fraud? Tekehu is already struggling with the idea of being Ngati's chosen, what will he do when he finds out Ngati is a damn animat?

Then you get the odd line that suggests they already know... like Ydwin wonders if the White Void predates Rymrgand in Beast Of Winter. Does everyone know? Did Eder and Pallegina tell them offscreen?

 

If they did I'm gonna kill them. Seriously, that would be one of the best moments in the game. My clever watcher would even ask Eder and Pallegina to wait a moment, until I could get a chair and something to eat while I watched them discover the truth about their "gods".



#49
DozingDragon

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.

 

Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

 

 

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well. 

 

The Fig campaign, Josh's twitter/Something Awful, in video interviews, and I'm pretty sure here on the forums. It got reiterated constantly during the crowd funding and dev time.

 

 

If I recall correctly, at some point Josh explained that it takes at least two or three months of writing time to make one companion because of the way they implemented the relationship system in Deadfire.  I also thought he explained at some point he was relieved that the Ydwin stretch goal was not met due to the amount of time it would have taken to implement Ydwin as a full companion.  However, I can't find these posts for the life of me, maybe they were on Something Awful?  Regardless,the prospect of another full companion never looked very promising.  


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#50
Achilles

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The relationship system was Obsidian shooting themselves in the foot. Its not really all that interesting, and its complexity is preventing them from making more/better companions. Sidekincks were really a waste of time.

I think "shooting themselves in the foot" is a little strong.

First, Pillars 1 had too many companions. Understandably, they "had" to cover all the classes, so 11 companions makes sense from a certain perspective, but that justification doesn't hold up in Deadfire due to multiclassing.

Second, "interesting" is completely subjective. Yes, the Pillars 1 crew had some witty banters, but I do think there's more depth to it in Deadfire. Maybe that's not your thing and that's ok, but I don't think it was a mistake or a failure.

Third, as someone who has ditched Xoti for a hireling, I can 100% confirm that sidekicks have value. They may not be as vocal as companions, but they aren't mute. They don't come out of the box 1 level behind, never to catch up. They don't share assets with ship crew members.

Where I do agree with you is that the deeper companinon relationship system isn't finished baking yet. It needs more work. And they defintely need to go back to their "no romance unless it can be done well" policy.
Exceot that the companions AREN'T deeper or more interesting than in PoE1. All the relationship thing has done is make me read, "Aloth raises an eyebrow." About 5,000 times. This adds NOTHING to his character.
Apples and oranges. There are the companions, and then there are their interactions (which is more than just the admittedly poorly implemented bits of prose thrown in during dialogs)

#51
Achilles

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.


Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well.
Then you clearly remember the many times they mentioned how expensive and lengthy and complicated the companion implementation process is. Sure sounded like, “don’t get your hopes up” to me. Especially since they said it every time the topic came up

When Josh Sawyer said that the team was "very aware" of the Ydwin fanbase (I'm not really a Ydwin fan, but to each their own) when asked about future companion content, I think it was reasonable to assume that they were looking at giving at least that sidekick an upgrade.

*shrug*

Taken with the other comments being made (see above), I don’t see how that would be a reasonable assumption to make. “Upgrading” a companion was something they consistently said was expensive, time consuming, and expensive.

We now know he was just talking about tacking on a handful of non-interactive lines in BoW, but it definitely didn't sound like meatier content was off the table at the time.

smh. Ok.

#52
Purudaya

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.


Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well.
Then you clearly remember the many times they mentioned how expensive and lengthy and complicated the companion implementation process is. Sure sounded like, “don’t get your hopes up” to me. Especially since they said it every time the topic came up

When Josh Sawyer said that the team was "very aware" of the Ydwin fanbase (I'm not really a Ydwin fan, but to each their own) when asked about future companion content, I think it was reasonable to assume that they were looking at giving at least that sidekick an upgrade.

*shrug*

Taken with the other comments being made (see above), I don’t see how that would be a reasonable assumption to make. “Upgrading” a companion was something they consistently said was expensive, time consuming, and expensive.

We now know he was just talking about tacking on a handful of non-interactive lines in BoW, but it definitely didn't sound like meatier content was off the table at the time.

smh. Ok.

 

 

Yeah, there's really no need for the condescension. During the Twitch Q&A from four months ago that I was referencing, Josh Sawyer was directly asked if any sidekicks would be fleshed out into full companions in the upcoming DLCs. His answer at 31:03:
 

https://www.twitch.t...766778?t=31m03s

 

Does that sound like "don't get your hopes up" to you? I'm terribly sorry that I am disappointed about something that you're not disappointed about, but no - when the director of the game himself hints that strongly that the developers are listening to a specific request for content, it's not unreasonable for players to hope to see that content make it into the game. What would be odd would be insisting repeatedly that this has been a hard "no" at every stage when Josh Sawyer is on tape not coming anywhere close to ruling out the possibility when specifically asked. 

 


Edited by Purudaya, 15 September 2018 - 03:03 PM.

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#53
Achilles

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.


Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well.
Then you clearly remember the many times they mentioned how expensive and lengthy and complicated the companion implementation process is. Sure sounded like, “don’t get your hopes up” to me. Especially since they said it every time the topic came up

When Josh Sawyer said that the team was "very aware" of the Ydwin fanbase (I'm not really a Ydwin fan, but to each their own) when asked about future companion content, I think it was reasonable to assume that they were looking at giving at least that sidekick an upgrade.

*shrug*

Taken with the other comments being made (see above), I don’t see how that would be a reasonable assumption to make. “Upgrading” a companion was something they consistently said was expensive, time consuming, and expensive.

We now know he was just talking about tacking on a handful of non-interactive lines in BoW, but it definitely didn't sound like meatier content was off the table at the time.

smh. Ok.

 

 

Yeah, there's really no need for the condescension. During the Twitch Q&A from four months ago that I was referencing, Josh Sawyer was directly asked if any sidekicks would be fleshed out into full companions in the upcoming DLCs. His answer at 31:03:
 

https://www.twitch.t...766778?t=31m03s

 

Does that sound like "don't get your hopes up" to you? I'm terribly sorry that I am disappointed about something that you're not disappointed about, but no - when the director of the game himself hints that strongly that the developers are listening to a specific request for content, it's not unreasonable for players to hope to see that content make it into the game. What would be odd would be insisting repeatedly that this has been a hard "no" at every stage when Josh Sawyer is on tape not coming anywhere close to ruling out the possibility when specifically asked. 

 

 

You did this once before and I replied with the full quote for context. 

 

Alll he says is that they are aware that this is what people want. That is literally *all* he says. It's the equivalent of a parent telling a child, "I heard you" after the 15 millionth request for a pony.


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#54
the_dog_days

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#55
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You did this once before and I replied with the full quote for context. 

 

Alll he says is that they are aware that this is what people want. That is literally *all* he says. It's the equivalent of a parent telling a child, "I heard you" after the 15 millionth request for a pony.

 

I was very optimistic when I heard that they were aware that people wanted Ydwin as a companion, but as you say it was not a confirmation that they would upgrade her. Far from it.

 

Well, at least they included more content for her in the dlc. For me that's excellent since I don't really care if she is involved with the relationship system. I'll take what they can give us.


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#56
Purudaya

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I love how people treat this as news even though they've been saying this all along.


Yeah, they were very upfront about not adding companions in the expansions.

Where? Everybody keeps saying how obvious it was, but I don't remember hearing this and feel like I've followed the game's development reasonably well.
Then you clearly remember the many times they mentioned how expensive and lengthy and complicated the companion implementation process is. Sure sounded like, “don’t get your hopes up” to me. Especially since they said it every time the topic came up

When Josh Sawyer said that the team was "very aware" of the Ydwin fanbase (I'm not really a Ydwin fan, but to each their own) when asked about future companion content, I think it was reasonable to assume that they were looking at giving at least that sidekick an upgrade.

*shrug*

Taken with the other comments being made (see above), I don’t see how that would be a reasonable assumption to make. “Upgrading” a companion was something they consistently said was expensive, time consuming, and expensive.

We now know he was just talking about tacking on a handful of non-interactive lines in BoW, but it definitely didn't sound like meatier content was off the table at the time.

smh. Ok.

 

 

Yeah, there's really no need for the condescension. During the Twitch Q&A from four months ago that I was referencing, Josh Sawyer was directly asked if any sidekicks would be fleshed out into full companions in the upcoming DLCs. His answer at 31:03:
 

https://www.twitch.t...766778?t=31m03s

 

Does that sound like "don't get your hopes up" to you? I'm terribly sorry that I am disappointed about something that you're not disappointed about, but no - when the director of the game himself hints that strongly that the developers are listening to a specific request for content, it's not unreasonable for players to hope to see that content make it into the game. What would be odd would be insisting repeatedly that this has been a hard "no" at every stage when Josh Sawyer is on tape not coming anywhere close to ruling out the possibility when specifically asked. 

 

 

You did this once before and I replied with the full quote for context. 

 

Alll he says is that they are aware that this is what people want. That is literally *all* he says. It's the equivalent of a parent telling a child, "I heard you" after the 15 millionth request for a pony.

 

 

Did what once before? Sorry if I took something out of context - your argument was that it was "not a reasonable assumption to make" in response to my view that Obsidian was "looking at least at giving that sidekick an upgrade." I posted the video to illustrate that the latter could easily be inferred from Sawyer's response to the question - not a confirmation, but a possibility. 

If "no additional companions" had been as firmly baked into the conversation from day one as you say, I imagine he would've simply reiterated that rather than leaving the possibility open. I'm not the only person in the subreddit where I sourced that link (or in these forums, for that matter) who drew the conclusion that a sidekick upgrade might yet be possible. 

---

For whatever reason, I didn't get the same impression of finality on this subject that you did. Maybe we didn't see all of the same developer comments, maybe I didn't follow the Fig campaign as closely as you did, maybe I interpreted "companion content is costly and time consuming" as tamping down expectations for the amount of potential content rather than precluding it altogether, or maybe I watched that video and thought - because of fan demand - that some of the developer's calculations on the matter might have changed. Is that really so unreasonable? Is it even worth arguing about?


Edited by Purudaya, 15 September 2018 - 05:47 PM.

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#57
Achilles

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It could only be easily inferred if one ignored everything else the studio was saying on the subject.

 

Which is just another way of phrasing dog_days' vastly superior post above.



#58
Ethics Gradient

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There is a wiki page related to a possible companion Ryona who is a spirit paladin, anyone know if this will be a new sidekick in DLC2?

No way to know for sure until the release of DLC2.  While references and assets relating to Ryona started appearing around the 2.1 beta, there hasn't been anything definitive to specifically tie her introduction to the next expansion.

 

Data-mining can be quite hit-or-miss.  It's sometimes difficult to determine if we're unearthing secrets, or digging through piles of discarded trash.


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#59
heldred

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Less is more... 10+ companions leads to two dimensional character development displayed through a simple logic tree and some voice-over files.

A better product would emerge if they just worked on 4-5 companions, with the understanding the players might only relate to 1 or 2. If you are going with a companion system, you need to develop characters with depth, goals, aspirations, fears, foibles, etc.

As for the storyline... less time should be spent with micro-games (ship combat) and more resources on a compelling story that creates true motivation or evokes some level of emotion. POE2 had a thin story (with zero sense of urgency or import) and mediocre characters... the story might be harder to nail, but limiting the number of companions would probably have produced a better overall product.

By the way, random ideas as I pour a cup of coffee:
1) compulsive liar companion: you never really know the truth and every time a big event happens they relate to it, but is most likely all a lie... for example, you just defeated a shadow drake and the companion says, “as a child, my village in the living lands was terrorized by a massive drake, summoned by a vile chanter. My father was part of the town militia and they were summoned to confront the vile chanter. After a fierce battle they defeated the drake and thought they had won, until the chanter summoned another drake and destroyed the remaining militia. We grew up as a slaves to this chanter and eventually I ran away on my 14th name day. No need to tell you the challenges of being a female runaway, but it made me who I am. i am starting to trust you, but if you bring a chanter into this party you will need to make a decision... me or them.” This could be a huge lie, some truth, etc., but depending on your interactions and choices either the truth begins to emerge or more lies keep the character shrouded in mystery.

2) protege companion: A companion that wants to be you... you saved them or did something fairly remarkable to make a lasting impression. Either you allow them to continue to fawn over you and eventually take them on as an apprentice (multi class with one class being the same as main character) or you turn them away, causing possible friction and lots of snide remarks.

3) someone better than you companion: older veteran, possibly the original watcher, that happens to have slid down a dark path (drinking, harlots, etc.) because of a massive tragedy (lost his original companions, accidentally caused a village to be enslaved by a vile chanter, etc.) and you convince him or her they have chance at redemption or at least not dying of boredom. Now this is really unique since you have a really powerful character that has no interest in being a leader, but this companion will also have no hesitation pointing out (with sarcasm) a bad decision or a self-serving action...

Back to coffee...

Edited by heldred, 17 September 2018 - 03:09 AM.

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#60
MotelOK

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I was excited when Vatnir was announced, but when I finally got to pick him up I was underwhelmed. Having to wait so late to get him compared to the others sucks. Plus he's just... not that well written. I'd rather they beefed up the existing sidekicks than added new sidekicks/companions. I'm not much of a Ydwin fan, but I would throw a vote towards more Rekke interactions.






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