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But  I also forget to tell you that Helwalker will give ~45% addition spell damage AND with Sun & Moon you can cast SA without worrying about other abilities (Sun & Moon do 2x attack). I point about SA because with cipher +1 PEN and Monk's +2 PEN you will hit 14 PEN and can pen even dragon armor from 5m range

 

I tried Sun & Moon. Grave Calling did way more damage overall.

 

Are you sure that you check it with SA, because with SA it do 2x hits and second one re-generate your focus which allow you do next SA hit etc...

 

Note I do not test level 20 builds, but rather level 13 builds.

I test all my build only on L20, BoW, Ukaizo bosses fights and some High Level ship combats

 

When I have spare wounds, I always ended pretty dissapointed with the attacks' effects. Maybe the issue is that I spec my characters offensively, so can't really keep up something like Dance of Death.

So you never try shield + heavy armor setup ?

Solo PotD builds: The Glanfathan Soul Hunter (Neutral seer. Dominate and manipulate your enemies), Harbinger of Doom (Dark shaman. Burn and sacrifice, yourself and enemies for Skaen sake)

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Nope. Can't use a shield with a two-hander and heavy armor + two-hander... ugh... maybe on a triggered Streetfighter.

 

With a Mindstalker I prefer not to SA every attack, but rather do a Full Attack-SA-Full Attack-SA chain. So I usually have 100+ Focus on every SA. Sun and Moon 1 head autoattack gave me.. like 20-30 Focus? Pretty useless for my purpose.

Edited by Haplok
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Nope. Can't use a shield with a two-hander and heavy armor + two-hander... ugh... maybe on a triggered Streetfighter.

 

With a a Mindstalker I prefer not to SA every attack, but rather do a Full Attack-SA-FullAttack-SA chain. So I usually have 100+ Focus on every SA. Sun and Moon 1 head autoattack gave me.. like 20-30 Focus? Pretty useless for my purpose.

So we usually talk about different builds and situations ;) I can say for sure that I can survive with heavy armor even ship combat fight and do a lot of damage with (Sun & Moon + Small Shield )

Solo PotD builds: The Glanfathan Soul Hunter (Neutral seer. Dominate and manipulate your enemies), Harbinger of Doom (Dark shaman. Burn and sacrifice, yourself and enemies for Skaen sake)

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry for necroing thread, but i was playing trickster/soulblade with sanquine sword (there might be even better weapon choices, but crits + modal + constant self heal + i simply wanted greatsword). All maxed dex with helm of falcon+miscreant+those fast gloves - made to 2,6s recovery on GS. 

Only rogue active i took escape, rest just trickster skills and passives + all good stuff from cipher. She had about 40perc crit chance - probably more (having lot of money and that money crit ring OP). And she was able to offtank one medium heavy enemy, until they died, without being hit - thanks to trickster skills.

 

Although single target dps/with some dominating and by choice emptying focus to 3x amplified wave or spam scream - she did majority of dps in party, including evoker and fury, but that might be most because microing her alot... 

 

I am trying to play now assassin soulblade, similar build and stats, but i took +2 blessing and distributed it between might con and res (to compensate squishiness and more might).

2 handed should be ideal for assassinate, which, after setting up whole situation, if works out, she can backstab kill 3skulls brute. But... its gimmicky like hell, gets messed if mobs are moving etc, and takes ages to set up. This she can do 4x for all fight with assasin shoes (she is mid levels now) - which sometimes simply doesnt work, and then she is out of guile even for dumb escape.

I have super hard time to keep her alive, and (at mid level) for now it seems totally not worth it.

I tried aoe assasinate with endless paths (that thing got nerfed to oblivion, i wonder what buid can use so tiny aoe like 2,5m with 16int zzzz) not good. It seems like wasted 3k to mahiri - maybe some weird monk hybrid with 30 int could use it - MEH. 

Any tips how to play assassin mindstalker melee? 

I kinda refuse to play ranged cipher, because its super boring.

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I've been very impressed with my Ascendant / Street Fighter using dual hatchets, picking-up mostly just the Cipher skills with a 0.5 cast time. 

i was thinking about trying melee ascendant - but those 3pl ascended wont make even 1 pen - and soulblade can do 3x amplified without problem, then bam bam few attacks and again - when comes to lower level shred skills, she can spam some even more than ascendant, if you chose to - f.e. soul shock 5 focus - and has free almost perma concentration, and almost perma 20 perc weapon damage - seems winner - not only because soul blade

 

my problem is, that assassin brings nothing seems - guile cost of being hidden is simply too much - and setting up circumstances for good backstab makes usually rest of party without any management far too long, and it often fails - if mobs are moving etc. Assassinating mages is fun but pointless, because trickster with escape wrecks them easily without stealth (arguably easier, because you have to be fast, until they cast their buffs, so quickly escape bam bam done)

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Soul Shock is too slow IMO. Particularly for a melee SoulBlade.

Those 3 Ascendant bonus PL means 1-2 extra MindBlade bounces for example...

 

Anyway as a SoulBlade you typically end up just spamming Soul Annihilation.

Edited by Haplok
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Soul Shock is too slow IMO. Particularly for a melee SoulBlade.

Those 3 Ascendant bonus PL means 1-2 extra MindBlade bounces for example...

 

Anyway as a SoulBlade you typically end up just spamming Soul Annihilation.

depends - when there is crowd, its much better to do 3x amplified wave - and ok, mindblades 15 focus, but i never found that one particularly effective.

So ok, i gave up on assassin, because it just doesnt work, and decided to try corpse eater witch ascendant just from curiosity, and to see that +5 power level. Kith meat is plentiful, and that vessel mess too, just need lot of eggs = +2 power level all the time, but no razor skewers hmmm. Seems fun from RP perspective, evil witch, not raging like berserker + i dont like meta, lol. Might be another dissapointment, or not.

5th cipher build - so far melee trickster was most fun and most effective + survived alot.

 

Update: OK she is low level yet, but eating corpse made her straight ascended at lvl 5 - not sure how this scales further, but i was like wtf (not working, im probably just not used how fast she gets focus, one blow full charge - but if that would worked, that would be super cool - now its just on the way to other mob, she just eats some corpse to get another blow - its not that slow - 2.3sec for now)

- just missing that soul blade concentration, otw barbarian is quite tough

Edited by kiki78
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Mindblades are very good for its level/cost - when there are 2-3 enemies around/left to bounce between. Also nice to trigger effects, such as Combusting Wounds.

Obviously can't compete with Amplified Wave - which is 4 power levels higher, 3 times as expensive Focus-wise and takes twice as long to cast+Recover.

 

Good luck with the Corpse Eater. I think you're gonna need it.

 

My personal favorite is Transcendant (note it is a bit of a late bloomer, meh prior to level 10 and so-so before you get to the GOOD powers). But after level 10 with Duality of Mortal Presence and dual hand mortars stunning huge groups for a long time with Stunning Blow/Surge and debuffing the whole screen already feels good.

 

But Trickster/Soulblade is nice also - mainly for single-targets though.

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I've been very impressed with my Ascendant / Street Fighter using dual hatchets, picking-up mostly just the Cipher skills with a 0.5 cast time. 

i was thinking about trying melee ascendant - but those 3pl ascended wont make even 1 pen - and soulblade can do 3x amplified without problem, then bam bam few attacks and again - when comes to lower level shred skills, she can spam some even more than ascendant, if you chose to - f.e. soul shock 5 focus - and has free almost perma concentration, and almost perma 20 perc weapon damage - seems winner - not only because soul blade

 

my problem is, that assassin brings nothing seems - guile cost of being hidden is simply too much - and setting up circumstances for good backstab makes usually rest of party without any management far too long, and it often fails - if mobs are moving etc. Assassinating mages is fun but pointless, because trickster with escape wrecks them easily without stealth (arguably easier, because you have to be fast, until they cast their buffs, so quickly escape bam bam done)

 

 

I'm using her as a tank & crowd control source, though, not a DPS source. There's an interesting sort-of synergy where she spends the first part of most engagements building-up her Focus & Heating-Up bonus on the front, then when the opponents start to drop she can very quickly shoot-off some ascended psychic attacks, pop smoke & delete someone with a Finishing Blow.

 

 

I also have a Soulblade / Bleakwalker for DPS, but it honestly doesn't even feel like a Cipher because the only Cipher ability she ever uses is Soul Annihilation. It certainly works just fine, but it is not what at all comes to mind when I think of the Cipher class. 

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Mindblades are very good for its level/cost - when there are 2-3 enemies around/left to bounce between. Also nice to trigger effects, such as Combusting Wounds.

Obviously can't compete with Amplified Wave - which is 4 power levels higher, 3 times as expensive Focus-wise and takes twice as long to cast+Recover.

 

Good luck with the Corpse Eater. I think you're gonna need it.

 

My personal favorite is Transcendant (note it is a bit of a late bloomer, meh prior to level 10 and so-so before you get to the GOOD powers). But after level 10 with Duality of Mortal Presence and dual hand mortars stunning huge groups for a long time with Stunning Blow/Surge and debuffing the whole screen already feels good.

 

But Trickster/Soulblade is nice also - mainly for single-targets though.

Cipher class is so good compared to other class. Oh wait.. better delete this. Mega cipher nerfs incoming for patch 4.0.

 

Gosh I really wished obsidian buff other classes to make them better than keep nerfing.

Edited by Archaven
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One thing just occured me, comparing witch to mindstalker assassin, she has not so much more hp, 1 armor from barbarian passive, less reflex less dodge. She survives so much more (actually she died only once to some multi rogue assault on her, so far, whereas assassin would be dead like 20 times, to anything). Makes me thinking, that enemy AI targets assassin because of that damage debuff. 

Because now, the most targetted is my helwalker sage - they even break multiple engagements, gets almost killed, just to once hit the poor thing. So maybe, assassin is not crappy by itself, but thanks to enemy AI. Btw party composition is same, except helwalker sage - was heavy armored helwalker fury - so its obvious - target priorities.

But then, assassin brings almost nothing, thanks to stealth guile cost being just too much. Witch is so good (omg LDV), mindstalker trickster is so good.

 

Makes me thinking, tank should definitely be the most squishy member lol. But how to do it.

 

Oh and comparing ascendant to soulblade - uhh, i think soulblade is more fun to play, diverse, this thing, spamming mind blades - 0,4s cast - pause - target again rinse repeat to oblivion. I was happy that i got scream - but its not that effective, well depends on enemies, but theres nothing much else to spam. So i need to wait for amplified w.

Edited by kiki78
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If you like spamming offensive powers, Ascendant is MUCH better, no contest.

Scream isn't great. But Mind Lance is very nice and spammy (fast cast, interrupt to perma-stun, will save!). Just have to be aware of the positioning, as it does friendly damage.

And be sure to use Ectopsychic Echo. That's one of the best Cipher offensive powers.

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If you like spamming offensive powers, Ascendant is MUCH better, no contest.

Scream isn't great. But Mind Lance is very nice and spammy (fast cast, interrupt to perma-stun, will save!). Just have to be aware of the positioning, as it does friendly damage.

And be sure to use Ectopsychic Echo. That's one of the best Cipher offensive powers.

I actually am thinking about doing streetfighter/cipher due to recover, as many cipher spells have longish recovery, you'll be able to basically spam stuff

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Yeah, I've had the same idea some time ago. In the end I found that Streetfighter damage is so good, that it competes with cipher powers for action economy. Overall I liked Helwalker monk more. It provides a strong boost to action speed also (less, but not limited to recovery), but also supercharges the cipher powers with up to +15 Might, +10 Int and +2 Pen. Powers last very long, have huge radiuses and hit hard. Also I can aoe stun whole groups for 11 seconds with dual mortar Stunning Surge fire.

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If you like spamming offensive powers, Ascendant is MUCH better, no contest.

Scream isn't great. But Mind Lance is very nice and spammy (fast cast, interrupt to perma-stun, will save!). Just have to be aware of the positioning, as it does friendly damage.

And be sure to use Ectopsychic Echo. That's one of the best Cipher offensive powers.

Mind lance hits allies, and uhh... positioning in that chaos when theres lot of mobs... But thinking, it might be really good for big boss fights. Gonna try to respec for it.

Since i have amplified wave, its ok. But spamming mind blades is super annoying, so many pauses and micro, for - hmm, well it works great, when there are slash vulnrable 2 mobs, if theres crowd, its meh, if theres one mob, its super meh. The best it worked when she was confused, she did more than half hp of all party by one cast...

These 0,5s casts would be best to AI them, especially with blood thirst, but i never use AI on watcher (only for auto drugs use lol).

 

Just one thing - why the heck has cipher only one casting sound, i am getting slightly annoyed 1000x hearing same thing again and again ...

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I didn't use mind Lance. When ascended you want to nuke as much as you can as fast as you can. Also positioning maybe pita. Amplified wave sounds nice. Need a barb to make it work.

 

Going a melee based cipher I think maybe quite difficult to manage especially transcendent. Too squishy.

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Typical melee is... tricky.

But you can be "mid range". Mortar blunderbusses have like only 4-5m range anyway.

Have your chanter buddy summon skellies between you and the enemies. Then proceed to chop said skeletons to pieces using Grave Calling sabre to create deadly foe-only paralyzing chillfogs, which generate Focus for you...

 

Also you have Mental Binding. Use it when the going gets hot! You could even get the (very cool) Blade Turning. But you should rarely be in melee heat anyway.

 

Late game you can even use Long Pain -> Instruments of Pain for a lot of range.

 

 

Plus if you're feeling squishy, you can actually use a heavy armor. It will greatly improve your survivability. Generally not a bad idea for a Helwalker.

Edited by Haplok
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  • 10 months later...

Hi!

I don't know if I can intrude here like this but, well.

I was looking for a Cipher build playing a melee oriented character. I got the impression that the Transcendent could be a fine one.

Can I ask you some more information? Like how many Cypher/Monk level should I have? Or, does it use actual weapons or just the monk's fists?

Thanks!

Edited by Elaith
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  • 3 weeks later...

If you go Cipher/Monk, drop all survivability and go ranged.  I know you said melee but ciphers are very very squishy in the front lines, especially if you're trying to take advantage of Monk Wounds.

The build is simple:

Ascendant/Helwalker.  Use the unique bow you can buy @ Port Maje.  Use the ability that automatically gives you wounds, pew pew a couple of times with the bow, ascend and then spam mindblades and ectoplasmic, and later amplified waves and disintegrate.  This build MELTS everything in its path.  The bonus intellect from monk wounds means that you can sustain ascendance for an entire minute, all the while doing +50% damage due to your wounds.  

Edited by Marigoldran
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4 hours ago, Marigoldran said:

ciphers are very very squishy in the front lines, especially if you're trying to take advantage of Monk Wounds.

This is, quite frankly, nonsense.

Ciphers start with the same deflection as all classes (20) but have some powers that raise their deflection further (Psychovampiric Shield +5, Borrowed Instinct +20 - stack) and also gain more Armor (which is very important for survivability - Body Attunement) while at the same time they have lots of powers which drop enemies' accuracy (Eyestrike, Secret Horrors etc.).

So by no means is a melee cipher squishy if you don't want him to be. The health gain of a singel class cipher is not great (38/8), but since they can have pretty high defenses and drop debuffs it doesn't matter that much after a few levels. Also the health gain per level of a multiclass is an average vaule. Monks gain 42/12 - so on average a Transcendent gains 40/10 which is standard. Since Borrowed Instincts stacks with all direct deflection buffs it can acutally be a quite tanky (multi)class if one wishes.   

Then - besides the quite tiring fact this is the build you suggest all the time no matter if it fits (after the omnipresent "Herald!" suggestion seemed to have lost its appeal) there are several problems that a new player might not be aware of (ranking from minor to major):

  • Turning Wheel doesn't work with ranged weapons (which is a bit of a shame given that you want to use the +10 INT from Duality:Mind) - not a big deal though - just don't take Turning Wheel then. But you won't have the burning lash for faster focus generation (up to 20% multiplicative dmg which is considerable).
  • +10 MIG from Helwalker wounds means +30% damage, not +50%.
  • You can gain wounds for ascenson a lot faster with other weapons (melee or ranged, but especially melee) if that's the main goal of your build. There are several items which will give you additional lashes for melee weapons (Hylea's Talons - also give you wounds by the way, Belt of Magran's Chosen) which directly translates to more focus gain (remember: lashes are multiplicative dmg boosts and they do generate focus). You can't use those with a hunting bow.
  • While Essence Interrupter (aka "the unique bow you can buy @ Port Maje") without doubt has its merits (e.g. against certain enemies due to the unusual dmg types, the lash of the bow and the stacking summons) it doesn't excel at helping you to melt anything - except unique items because:
  • Essence Interrupter still destroys loot when it turns enemies into summons on crit-->kill. This bug wasn't fixed.

I answered that or something similar to all of your reoccuring suggestions for this build in the past. So either you don't really read what people reply to your suggestion - or you forget - or you intentionally recommend a loot destroying item to new players repeatingly...?  

Edited by Boeroer
typos

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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41 minutes ago, Boeroer said:
  • While Essence Interrupter (aka "the unique bow you can buy @ Port Maje") without doubt has its merits (e.g. against certain enemies due to the unusual dmg types, the lash of the bow and the stacking summons) it doesn't excel at helping you to melt anything - except unique items because:
  • Essence Interrupter still destroys loot when it turns enemies into summons on crit-->kill. This bug wasn't fixed.

 

I played trough the game twice with essence interrupter on patch 5.0 and never had my loot destroyed even when essence interrupter turned named enemies into xaurips and oozes. You sure this bug still in the game? I am using community patch, was essence interrupter fixed now in community patch ?

Edited by Blunderboss
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