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God Challenges Feedback!


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#41
Somnium_Meum

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  • Berath's challenge is pointless if you don't play Trial of Iron. If you do, it's very good challenge
  • Magran's challenge is terrible because of the bugs. AI/Phrases/Formations randomly resetting make this challenge unbearable pile of bull****
  • Abydon's challenge is okay-ish, my only gripe with it is that only thing it adds is more micromanagement and annoyance without really impacting the game
  • Skaen's challenge should be in base game. It doesn't really increase difficulty and it makes sense, it's nothing extra.

 

These challenges will not fix difficulty issues the base game has. Furthermore they make bugs and bad game design much more prominent.

 

I think Starcraft's Mutators are much better example how to do such challenges. Examples of SC's mutators:

  • Enemies explode on death, doing small damage (it does nothing if you have ranged units, but if enemies manage to go into your face or you mismanage your units they will get obliterated)
  • Killing an enemy buffs enemies around him, stacking up to 10 times. (as long as you kill all things at the same time it's no problem, but if you leave one enemy untouched until end of the fight, he'll act as a mini-boss because of these "revenge" stacks)
  • Resources are mined at much lower rate, but caches of resources appear all over the map (you rely on standard income much less and you have to micromanage much more, but this way you can get more resources than if you just mined)

As you can see, these can be worked around but you have to be careful because really bad thing might happen if you don't.

So what i propose for Deadfire:

  • Perception debuffs no longer cause Flanked status. Flanked status now increases damage taken by X%. (Flanking an enemy would be a big deal,  but at the same time you could be obliterated very quickly if you're not careful. It requires 2+ melee characters to Flank someone, so melee builds and Rangers would shine)
  • Killing enemies has chance to spawn Revenants. These Revenants have the same stats as enemy you killed, but they are semi-transparent and classified as spirits (so veil-touched).Large enemies such as Bosses are guaranteed to spawn lesser version of themselves instead.
  • If your characters have their health decreased to 0 they outright die as if they had 3 injuries. Resting on Mid-quality food (which means crafted food) adds buff that prevents death (character gets knocked out instead). Resting on high-quality food (top tier crafted food) prevents death twice. Alcohol doesn't provide death protection, but it now massively increases max health in addition to its normal effects.

Edited by Somnium_Meum, 10 September 2018 - 12:49 AM.

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#42
Manveru123

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People complaining that this is tedious instead of challenging can just not take the challenge, or learn to roll with the punches instead of going back and forth whenever someone drops for a moment.

But it is tedious. What exactly is challenging in going back to the Inn? How does the proccess of going out of a dungeon and going to an Inn to rest up is a "challenge"? This is just a huge waste of time, especially with this game's horrid loading screens.


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#43
house2fly

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The challenge is that you can't rest after every fight so you need to use your abilities less freely

#44
AndreaColombo

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The challenge is that you can't rest after every fight so you need to use your abilities less freely

 

That would work if I were also prevented from backtracking to an inn.

 

If resting is still possible, just inconvenient, it accomplishes nothing. Not resting remains a choice, as it already is.


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#45
gkathellar

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The challenge is that you can't rest after every fight so you need to use your abilities less freely

 

... but you can.

 

People get so hung up on how we need attrition in western CRPGs, but you can't have both attrition and the near-total freedom of movement that is a hallmark of the genre. At the very least, you need the mechanics of attrition to impair one's freedom of movement, either functionally (as in Wasteland 2, where leaving dungeons and coming back is going to cost you valuable water/ammunition, etc) or intrinsically (not allowing you to leave areas until they're completed). Many JRPGs factor in attrition by including random battles (and making those battles part of the expected leveling curve, punishing you for avoiding them). The Persona games had meaningful attrition by incentivizing the player, strongly, to save time by trying to do as much as you could all in one go. But barring some kind of opportunity cost to jaunting around willy-nilly, attrition is just not going to be meaningful.


Edited by gkathellar, 10 September 2018 - 05:27 AM.

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#46
Somnium_Meum

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The challenge is that you can't rest after every fight so you need to use your abilities less freely

 

That would work if I were also prevented from backtracking to an inn.

 

If resting is still possible, just inconvenient, it accomplishes nothing. Not resting remains a choice, as it already is.

 

 

Basically we need simulation of Dark Souls bonfire mechanics. You have certain amount of resources, resting at bonfire refills them, but also respawns all enemies.

So, translated into PoE - You can only rest while on World Map or in Inn, and doing so resets all encounters in areas you haven't cleared yet.

 

So you'll have to beat zones such as Poko Kohara, Engwithian Digsite and Hasongo in one run instead of resting after every fight. It would enforce picking encounters and scouting instead of mindlessly rushing and slaying everything that moves for loot.


Edited by Somnium_Meum, 10 September 2018 - 05:02 AM.

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#47
Manveru123

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So basically, if we have a dungeon that ends with a difficult boss, we cannot use any per-rest abilties for the whole dungeon to save them for the final fight?

 

Sounds fun.

 

Not.

 

Also this system would be abused to hell and beyond. If enemies respawn, I can farm infinite money in any dungeon I want to, by clearing it almost-fully, selling loot and repeating.


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#48
1TTFFSSE

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Wael: "What will happen is a mystery" (Nothing happens)

 

Wael: the other challenges are randomly turned on and off during the game. :p

 

Actually, Weal should be all active part members now have empowered Wild Mind effect  :w00t:


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#49
1TTFFSSE

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My wish list:

 

Magrans: Game can't be paused, enemies enraged (+2 pen +5 strength +20% action speed)

Barath: injuries are permanent 

Rymrgand = healing effectiveness halved

Hylea = SuperDrakes/ Dragons

Wael = everyone afflicted by wild mind

Skaen = sight decreased, poison affects +50% damage, all consumables -50% effectiveness

Abydon = inventory disabled???

Woedica = all per encounter abilities now reset on rest

Eothas = cannot rest


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#50
Somnium_Meum

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So basically, if we have a dungeon that ends with a difficult boss, we cannot use any per-rest abilties for the whole dungeon to save them for the final fight?

 

Sounds fun.

 

Not.

 

Also this system would be abused to hell and beyond. If enemies respawn, I can farm infinite money in any dungeon I want to, by clearing it almost-fully, selling loot and repeating.

Yeah, better use Empower, Per-Rest abilities and Figurines in every fight.

 

I don't see problem here, Per Rest abilities are designed to be used only ocassionally because they are game-breaking. You could still spam them in map events and ship battles.

Respawned enemies would have no drops, or only generic drops such as few coppers or monster materials.

 

Come up with some better solution  :)


Edited by Somnium_Meum, 10 September 2018 - 06:21 AM.


#51
house2fly

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The challenge is that you can't rest after every fight so you need to use your abilities less freely


That would work if I were also prevented from backtracking to an inn.

If resting is still possible, just inconvenient, it accomplishes nothing. Not resting remains a choice, as it already is.
I don't want to experience inconvenience, so I would choose not to backtrack to an inn unless I needed to. If other people prefer to experience inconvenience, I don't see why that should affect me.
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#52
AndreaColombo

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I don't want to experience inconvenience, so I would choose not to backtrack to an inn unless I needed to. If other people prefer to experience inconvenience, I don't see why that should affect me.

 

That's exactly the same argument as, "I don't want to rest spam, so I don't. If other people prefer to rest spam, I don't see why that should affect me."


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#53
Branagh

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Maybe Eothas's challenge could be that you only have a limited number of days to "catch up" with him at the various stages of the game. I sometimes felt it was a bit immersion breaking to be able to explore for weeks and months without repercussions.

 

Could such a timer maybe also help improve the attrition / rest spam problem at least a little bit? You would have to earn enough XP before being strong enough to advance to the later stages of the game. This would probably favour "XP dense"  areas of the game over remote islands and disincentivise exploration, however.


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#54
InsaneCommander

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That would work if I were also prevented from backtracking to an inn.

 

If resting is still possible, just inconvenient, it accomplishes nothing. Not resting remains a choice, as it already is.

 

Jus make every dungeon like the very first one in PoE: once you enter, the ceiling collapses and you have to find another exit (that will probably be guarded by the boss). :p


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#55
Harpagornis

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What about that challenge: Give the AI some kind of - well - AI. You got it? ;)

 

I still cannot believe that in the year 2018 it is not possible to create enemies that act somewhere near the good old Sword Coast Stratagems (which was fan-based). In the Computer-Chess-Scene self-learning programs like Alpha Chess Zero are growing stronger and stronger. So what about an AI that starts playing like an idiot (using abilities randomly) but with each defeat by the player it refreshes its algorithms to optimize tactics, formations, ability/spell usage. If we then create enemies that have access to the complete skills of the player we will sooner or later get unstoppable Master-Mimics. Well - its still allowed to dream. No? :biggrin:


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#56
1TTFFSSE

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What about that challenge: Give the AI some kind of - well - AI. You got it? ;)

 

I still cannot believe that in the year 2018 it is not possible to create enemies that act somewhere near the good old Sword Coast Stratagems (which was fan-based). In the Computer-Chess-Scene self-learning programs like Alpha Chess Zero are growing stronger and stronger. So what about an AI that starts playing like an idiot (using abilities randomly) but with each defeat by the player it refreshes its algorithms to optimize tactics, formations, ability/spell usage. If we then create enemies that have access to the complete skills of the player we will sooner or later get unstoppable Master-Mimics. Well - its still allowed to dream. No? :biggrin:

That is where a.i. is surely headed in future games (self learning) and a.i. in general away from pre-defined behavior tables but I think that will be a whole different development process for the games as in this game the a.i. "learns" from challenging itself a million times to see what sequence of executions is. 

 

But chess is a funny example because with enough computer computation power the ai is better than human....that will also be the case in a game scenario that if you just set your say toon fighter to "fighter ai" he will eventually execute better than by human hand control. 


Edited by 1TTFFSSE, 10 September 2018 - 09:59 AM.

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#57
thelee

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Just to pile on some feedback, my thoughts on two of the challenges:

 

Magran's: utterly pointless. I thought PoE was a real-time-with-pause game. What the hell is the point of me backing a real-time-with-pause event and then disabling that feature? All Magrans really does is "challenge" me to put together a lot of complex scripts.

 

Berath's: would be actually worth turning on if the margin for permadeath wasn't so short that it obsoletes like half of the revive effects in the game (hitting particularly hard the ostensible best reviver in the game, the priest). I don't care that some people think it's meaningless without Trial of Iron, I've played with self-imposed "permadeath" before in BG games, and I can do that myself here; so long as the death feels "fair" (and 6s isn't fair when that means I can't even cast a resurrect or revive the fallen if I'm been caught mid-recovery).

 

I second other people saying that the god challenge is not the place to increase PotD difficulty from level 14-20 (and imo Beast of Winter narrows that margin to 16-20; hopefully megabosses take care of that top end a bit). The main game should be improved, the god's challenges are a spot for weirder things.

 

Abydon is closer to what I expect from a god challenge. If Berath's was a bit longer (10 seconds) then I would be happy with it as a god's challenge.


Edited by thelee, 10 September 2018 - 10:27 AM.

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#58
thelee

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Also, I second having some sort of restricted rest option. (maybe some debuff that compounds with each rest until you sleep at an inn or resting instead of clearing injuries resets everyone to one special injury per rest e.g. 1st rest sets everyone to one injury, 2nd rest sets everyone to two injuries, etc 4th rest is death; plus maybe you can't use food that costs less than XX cp to rest--it's just sailor fodder).

 

People who feel like leaving a dungeon to go back to an inn to rest and are annoyed by that can just not turn it on. I and the rest of the playerbase who used PoE1's limited rests as an actual constraint (and not just a "time to sit through some load screens" count down) can flip it on.  (The bonfire style/enemy respawn option is a pretty good idea imo that might avoid the "time to head back to an inn" haters.)


Edited by thelee, 10 September 2018 - 10:30 AM.

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#59
Kaylon

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There was already an achievement in PoE1 which involved limited resting.  The challenge could involve a limit to the number of rests per level/game or maybe a time limit to finish the game. The consumables can easily be limited by giving vendors finite quantities of ingredients.



#60
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My wish list:


Barath: injuries are permanent

Wael = everyone afflicted by wild mind

Eothas = cannot rest

 

These are really good ideas. Wael's could also cause random perception afflictions at the start of each battles.






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