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Even without any DLC, I hit max level with something like 25% content left, which is already highly questionable. Add 3 DLC and don't change the cap or leveling rate, and you'd end up with a situation in which someone would hit max level with half the content in the game left. This is a ludicrous result that no single-player game that I have played in the last two decades has ended up with, including POE 1. I'm sure some of the people in this thread think it's fine, but I really believe you guys are the vocal minority. It's objectively poor game design in a genre rooted in player progression.

???

 

Are you assuming that each DLC is going to add 1/3 the XP as the base game? I think I got *a* level out of BoW

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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I'm in kind of the opposite field here (which by now should come as no surprise.)

 

If I can't hit the cap, or I can only hit it with one battle left, I end up frustrated cause I don't get to enjoy the power I've spent the entire game building up. As I mentioned in other similar threads, I enjoy being at the apex of my character's power a lot more than I enjoy the process of achieving it. Appreciate that YMMV.

 

I agree that maxing out with so much content left is a problem, if—as is unfortunately the case with Deadfire—said content isn't balanced around a maxed-out party. If I hit the level cap half-way through but the remaining half is challenging, that's quite literally the best I can ask for.

 

I'm not against an option to slow down XP gains for people who would rather not max out early, but it'd have to be an option—if it was standard, it would have a significant adverse impact on my enjoyment of the game.

I think I (mostly?) agree on what is said. This is the reason I don't really treat T9 abilities in high regard. There is very little mileage (left) to be gained from them.

 

Deadfire already has a slower exp gain than PoE1. In fact, I think one can practically hit max level at about 95% progress without considering bounties. And compared to PoE1, I don't anywhere as much complaints about easy experience gain.

 

Thankfully, upscaling content is available as an option. Still not perfect in balancing enemies in relation to party levels, but its better than nothing...

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Even without any DLC, I hit max level with something like 25% content left, which is already highly questionable. Add 3 DLC and don't change the cap or leveling rate, and you'd end up with a situation in which someone would hit max level with half the content in the game left. This is a ludicrous result that no single-player game that I have played in the last two decades has ended up with, including POE 1. I'm sure some of the people in this thread think it's fine, but I really believe you guys are the vocal minority. It's objectively poor game design in a genre rooted in player progression.

???

 

Are you assuming that each DLC is going to add 1/3 the XP as the base game? I think I got *a* level out of BoW

 

 

 

?????????

 

1)  Later levels are worth more.  You didn't go there at level 1.

 

2)  It's more about time spent at a certain level than it is how many creatures or raw exp a certain area gives.  This is the same reason games don't have levels 1 through 9 take 10 hours each and then have the final boss level take 100 hours on its own.

 

3)  I spent like 30 hours to hit max level and then at least another 15 at max level in vanilla.  I spent like 7 in Beast of Winter, already maxed.  If the other two DLCs are also 7 hours each then I'd be at 30 hours to hit max and then 36 at max.  

 

This is neither a complicated nor a controversial perspective.  All you have to do is look at the top 20 or so top RPGs of the last two-three decades.

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If they increase the level cap, does anyone think Multiclass still should be locked out of Tier 8 and 9? Just gaining PL for abilities?

 

Possibly unlock Tier 8, but still have Tier 9 locked while adding one (or two) active and one (or two) passives to Tier 9 so Single Class can retain so kind of unique abilities?

 

Or.. unlock both 8 and 9 Tier levels while single class have Tier 10 abilities unique to them?

 

Or remain as it is now?

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Even without any DLC, I hit max level with something like 25% content left, which is already highly questionable. Add 3 DLC and don't change the cap or leveling rate, and you'd end up with a situation in which someone would hit max level with half the content in the game left. This is a ludicrous result that no single-player game that I have played in the last two decades has ended up with, including POE 1. I'm sure some of the people in this thread think it's fine, but I really believe you guys are the vocal minority. It's objectively poor game design in a genre rooted in player progression.

???

 

Are you assuming that each DLC is going to add 1/3 the XP as the base game? I think I got *a* level out of BoW

 

 

 

?????????

 

1)  Later levels are worth more.  You didn't go there at level 1.

 

2)  It's more about time spent at a certain level than it is how many creatures or raw exp a certain area gives.  This is the same reason games don't have levels 1 through 9 take 10 hours each and then have the final boss level take 100 hours on its own.

 

3)  I spent like 30 hours to hit max level and then at least another 15 at max level in vanilla.  I spent like 7 in Beast of Winter, already maxed.  If the other two DLCs are also 7 hours each then I'd be at 30 hours to hit max and then 36 at max.  

 

This is neither a complicated nor a controversial perspective.  All you have to do is look at the top 20 or so top RPGs of the last two-three decades.

 

1) "later levels are worth more". I'm not sure what that means. 

 

2) This is a function of open world games where you have a ton of content that players *could* be doing anywhere between the end of act 1 and the start of act 3. If you don't like the trend, then encourage developers to stop chasing the sandbox. In the mean time, you're not *forced* to chase down every side quest and task. You do know this, right?

 

3) Oh. Powergamer. Nevermind.

 

PS: the "top 20 or so RPGs of the last two-three decade" could mean anything depending on who you ask. Unfortunately, one of the best selling games in the last 10 years was Skyrim which had a classless system that eventually had to introduce a "legendary" mechanic to address people capping out abilities. So could we stop pretending that this is a "Deadfire" problem?

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Personally, I consider Skyrim to be one of the worst RPGs ever made. :p However not because classless system or level caping.

 

 

Anyway, from one hand, I belong to those that preffer to chase the bunny, than catching it. ;)

 

I also like the fact, that if my hero (party) is not experienced enough, it will be smashed if will go to wrong places too early. A the same time, there is that feel of "accomplishment" if one manage to deal with a fight with much toughter enemies than our own party.

 

This is obviously a problem in open-world concept games, since one can easily become over-leveled for certain locations. Hence "level-scaling" idea. But level-scaling might be seen as problemattic too, since it kills a little bit the feeling of being "rewarded" by leveling our character - the feel of gaining power, etc.

 

 

 

For me, the XP gain could be slightly lower I guess.

 

Btw. I didn't try it yet - how well (or not) level scaling works in Deadfire?

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When i think about games like Elex, where no level cap exists, it's pretty neat, because you feel rewarded to kill enemies and it is not a waste of time like in deadfire later on.

Except Deadfire is designed this way precisely not to reward players for killing stuff. You fight, when it is appropriate for your character to do so. Even quest purely focused on combat (bounties) provide other rewards (items, cash) which make them worth doing even if you don’t need xp.

 

I thought that base game’s xp was well distributed (I reached max level when doing late game content), however I felt that sometime around level 14 I become overlevel for majority of the content. The who next expansions might not even be an issue if they tackle levels 16-18 &18-20, as they should harder than what Is in the game already, making them pre-endgame content.

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When i think about games like Elex, where no level cap exists, it's pretty neat, because you feel rewarded to kill enemies and it is not a waste of time like in deadfire later on.

Except Deadfire is designed this way precisely not to reward players for killing stuff. You fight, when it is appropriate for your character to do so. Even quest purely focused on combat (bounties) provide other rewards (items, cash) which make them worth doing even if you don’t need xp.

 

I thought that base game’s xp was well distributed (I reached max level when doing late game content), however I felt that sometime around level 14 I become overlevel for majority of the content. The who next expansions might not even be an issue if they tackle levels 16-18 &18-20, as they should harder than what Is in the game already, making them pre-endgame content.

 

 

 

I fully agree. And this concept of not gaining XP through combat was something I actualy appreciated much in PoE 1 already. :)

 

But same thing - in my first playthrough at "veteran" difficulty level (level-scaling turned off), I had the feeling that most encounters quickly started to be relatively easy.

With the exception of Ukaizo's guardian, but since this was almost the end of the game, I decided to lower the difficulty just to see the ending - I admitt ;P

 

 

Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

 

Best wishes!

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I'm in kind of the opposite field here (which by now should come as no surprise.)

 

If I can't hit the cap, or I can only hit it with one battle left, I end up frustrated cause I don't get to enjoy the power I've spent the entire game building up. As I mentioned in other similar threads, I enjoy being at the apex of my character's power a lot more than I enjoy the process of achieving it. Appreciate that YMMV.

 

I agree that maxing out with so much content left is a problem, if—as is unfortunately the case with Deadfire—said content isn't balanced around a maxed-out party. If I hit the level cap half-way through but the remaining half is challenging, that's quite literally the best I can ask for.

 

I'm not against an option to slow down XP gains for people who would rather not max out early, but it'd have to be an option—if it was standard, it would have a significant adverse impact on my enjoyment of the game.

 

I broadly agree, but ideally if I hit the cap with a decent chunk of content remaining I want most of that content to be challenging for a max level character. I like there to be some under levelled content remaining as it's nice to have the game emphasise the fact my character has grown powerful by having them fight enemies that were previously challenging and easily defeat them, but I want most of the content I do at max level to be challenging still. I think this is where both Deadfire and Pillars fall down a bit: if you're completionist you'll hit max level long before you exhaust all the sub max level content the game has to offer, and you'll find yourself fighting a lot of enemies that pose no challenge whatsoever.

 

But yeah, I also prefer it if I spend a significant amount of time at max level so that I get to enjoy my completed character.

 

Personally, I consider Skyrim to be one of the worst RPGs ever made. :p However not because classless system or level caping.

This man is a wise individual :D

Edited by JerekKruger
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If they increase the level cap, does anyone think Multiclass still should be locked out of Tier 8 and 9? Just gaining PL for abilities?

 

Possibly unlock Tier 8, but still have Tier 9 locked while adding one (or two) active and one (or two) passives to Tier 9 so Single Class can retain so kind of unique abilities?

 

Or.. unlock both 8 and 9 Tier levels while single class have Tier 10 abilities unique to them?

 

Or remain as it is now?

they should just make it so single-class characters get a new power level every 2 levels, multiclass characters get one every 3.
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If they increase the level cap, does anyone think Multiclass still should be locked out of Tier 8 and 9? Just gaining PL for abilities?

 

Possibly unlock Tier 8, but still have Tier 9 locked while adding one (or two) active and one (or two) passives to Tier 9 so Single Class can retain so kind of unique abilities?

 

Or.. unlock both 8 and 9 Tier levels while single class have Tier 10 abilities unique to them?

 

Or remain as it is now?

they should just make it so single-class characters get a new power level every 2 levels, multiclass characters get one every 3.

 

Early game would be a nightmare for casters.

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This seems to be nothing new though. I have hit the level cap in PoEI long before the final battle too (with all DLC).

 

True, we had the same discussion over there. And one of arguments against reducing xp gain was that not everyone would do all the side quests and they would arrive at endgame a few levels below the maximum.

 

So if there was an option to reduce the xp gain, each player could make their choice. Maybe a god challenge is not the best way, as I said above, because currently they are not available for every difficult.

Edited by InsaneCommander

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Increasing the level cap is literally free, there are mods that do it. New abilities would cost, due to having new animations and visual effects, and of course they'd need to further address enemy difficulty, but the alternative is ending up with a full game and three DLCs where players hit the level cap halfway through.

 

Of course, the benefit of having more abilities is that enemies can use them too...

Right. My bad for assuming that the people clamoring for an increased level cap wanted more than to see the little number go up.

 

Yes, the cost of developing new abilities, creating animations for them, several QA passes for balance, a narrative pass or two for higher level skill checks, etc is what I was referring to.

 

 

It's a psychological effect. Seeing a little number go up would be sufficient to keep some people actively engaged in the game when they would otherwise loose interest.

 

Meanwhile, I hit level 18 when I reached Ukaizo in my last playthrough. *shrug*

 

Bloody speedrunners *shakes fist*

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Increasing the level cap is literally free, there are mods that do it. New abilities would cost, due to having new animations and visual effects, and of course they'd need to further address enemy difficulty, but the alternative is ending up with a full game and three DLCs where players hit the level cap halfway through.

 

Of course, the benefit of having more abilities is that enemies can use them too...

Right. My bad for assuming that the people clamoring for an increased level cap wanted more than to see the little number go up.

 

Yes, the cost of developing new abilities, creating animations for them, several QA passes for balance, a narrative pass or two for higher level skill checks, etc is what I was referring to.

It's a psychological effect. Seeing a little number go up would be sufficient to keep some people actively engaged in the game when they would otherwise loose interest.

Meanwhile, I hit level 18 when I reached Ukaizo in my last playthrough. *shrug*

Bloody speedrunners *shakes fist*
Hehe, not quite.

 

Narrative-focused player who’s trying to determine exactly how much of the game is filler.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

I have done almost two playthroughs right now - both with level scaling: first one was on Veteran+crit path content scaling up only , and one (late game on hold due to bug which stops me from progressing the main quest in BoW) on PotD with scaling all up only. 

 

To be honest XP float compared to quest's difficulty is still an issue. I would recommend using it - things still feel to be pretty much designed to be around certain level. If it's better than without level scaling - I can't tell. I didn't sense much difference between two playthroughs - except 2nd one being less borken due to many balance patches which came online since.  

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Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

 

I never tried playing without up-scaling, but I imagine that if you don't turn it on some areas will be too easy.

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Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

I have done almost two playthroughs right now - both with level scaling: first one was on Veteran+crit path content scaling up only , and one (late game on hold due to bug which stops me from progressing the main quest in BoW) on PotD with scaling all up only.

 

To be honest XP float compared to quest's difficulty is still an issue. I would recommend using it - things still feel to be pretty much designed to be around certain level. If it's better than without level scaling - I can't tell. I didn't sense much difference between two playthroughs - except 2nd one being less borken due to many balance patches which came online since.

When does it become "boring" once you hit top tiers and play with those skills? It's nice to be able to use those abilities/talents sooner than the last few hours but how close to the end is a good point to hit max level/PL?

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I'm in kind of the opposite field here (which by now should come as no surprise.)

 

If I can't hit the cap, or I can only hit it with one battle left, I end up frustrated cause I don't get to enjoy the power I've spent the entire game building up. As I mentioned in other similar threads, I enjoy being at the apex of my character's power a lot more than I enjoy the process of achieving it. Appreciate that YMMV.

 

I agree that maxing out with so much content left is a problem, if—as is unfortunately the case with Deadfire—said content isn't balanced around a maxed-out party. If I hit the level cap half-way through but the remaining half is challenging, that's quite literally the best I can ask for.

 

I'm not against an option to slow down XP gains for people who would rather not max out early, but it'd have to be an option—if it was standard, it would have a significant adverse impact on my enjoyment of the game.

I feel you bro

 

One of the things i enjoied most was the bg2 solo run, where you reach max lvl at about half game and have the other half + whole ToB to do at lvl 40. And while you are at your aphex, enemies continue to get stronger and stronger.

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Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

I have done almost two playthroughs right now - both with level scaling: first one was on Veteran+crit path content scaling up only , and one (late game on hold due to bug which stops me from progressing the main quest in BoW) on PotD with scaling all up only. 

 

To be honest XP float compared to quest's difficulty is still an issue. I would recommend using it - things still feel to be pretty much designed to be around certain level. If it's better than without level scaling - I can't tell. I didn't sense much difference between two playthroughs - except 2nd one being less borken due to many balance patches which came online since.  

 

 

 

Hence my question - how about your experience, guys, when it comes to level-scaling? I consider to turn-on up-scaling in my next playthrough. But is it worth it?

 

I never tried playing without up-scaling, but I imagine that if you don't turn it on some areas will be too easy.

 

 

 

Thx. for advice. :) I guess I will try my next playthrough on "veteran" + up-scaling only. Actualy, I don't even level-up as fast as some of you, because I try to involve only into quests that suits my current role-play. However I want to make my next hero more "adventurer" type - actualy, he already exists, but for now he is occupied with Thaos in PoE 1. ;)

 

Personaly, I don't mind if some areas starts to feel relatively easy after our party have grown in power. But I mean - some areas, not practicaly all of them. ;) And I haven't even hit level-cup, when I've reach the final area of the game in my first playthrough - and as I wrote, only there I had some real troubles. So something is wrong with balancing, I suppose.

 

Meanwhile, I started next playthrough with my old hero, but on PotD (but level-scaling off), and yes... the starting island was challenging, but in the way I don't neccessery like - "artifficialy" incereasing stats and so on. And fighting is supposed to be challenging and interesting for me, but it is not that important from my perspective too. Hence I'm thinking rather of "veteran" + up-scaling next time, as I wrote.

 

Anyway, thx. again!

Best wishes! :)

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Personaly, I don't mind if some areas starts to feel relatively easy after our party have grown in power. But I mean - some areas, not practicaly all of them. ;) And I haven't even hit level-cup, when I've reach the final area of the game in my first playthrough - and as I wrote, only there I had some real troubles. So something is wrong with balancing, I suppose.

 

I forgot to say, even with level scaling there were many areas that became easy for me in veteran. Since I reached the higher levels, only the DLC was satisfying difficult. So definitely turn up-scaling on.

 

Thx. for advice. :) I guess I will try my next playthrough on "veteran" + up-scaling only. Actualy, I don't even level-up as fast as some of you, because I try to involve only into quests that suits my current role-play. However I want to make my next hero more "adventurer" type - actualy, he already exists, but for now he is occupied with Thaos in PoE 1. ;)

 

Don't forget to "rescue" Vela. ;)

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When does it become "boring" once you hit top tiers and play with those skills? It's nice to be able to use those abilities/talents sooner than the last few hours but how close to the end is a good point to hit max level/PL?

I felt that Vanilla Deadfire had a find balance as i reached max level when wrapping up the side content and getting ready for final mission. That meant that I spend time lvling up for majority of the content and reached last level with only highest level content to be done. It will break once all expansions are out but I hope Obs will give an option to rebalance xp once DLCs are out.

 

The bigger problem for me is how many quests are available for the mid level range. This is a side effect of multiple factions, not having to complete all of those quests + many bounties/non combat sidequests etc. resulting in party being overleveled for majority of quests available. I felt in 2nd half to the game I have to search for those more remote locations (Nemnok dungeon, undead&vampires isle) to get fun gameplay.

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Even without any DLC, I hit max level with something like 25% content left, which is already highly questionable. Add 3 DLC and don't change the cap or leveling rate, and you'd end up with a situation in which someone would hit max level with half the content in the game left. This is a ludicrous result that no single-player game that I have played in the last two decades has ended up with, including POE 1. I'm sure some of the people in this thread think it's fine, but I really believe you guys are the vocal minority. It's objectively poor game design in a genre rooted in player progression.

???

 

Are you assuming that each DLC is going to add 1/3 the XP as the base game? I think I got *a* level out of BoW

 

 

 

?????????

 

1)  Later levels are worth more.  You didn't go there at level 1.

 

2)  It's more about time spent at a certain level than it is how many creatures or raw exp a certain area gives.  This is the same reason games don't have levels 1 through 9 take 10 hours each and then have the final boss level take 100 hours on its own.

 

3)  I spent like 30 hours to hit max level and then at least another 15 at max level in vanilla.  I spent like 7 in Beast of Winter, already maxed.  If the other two DLCs are also 7 hours each then I'd be at 30 hours to hit max and then 36 at max.  

 

This is neither a complicated nor a controversial perspective.  All you have to do is look at the top 20 or so top RPGs of the last two-three decades.

 

1) "later levels are worth more". I'm not sure what that means. 

 

2) This is a function of open world games where you have a ton of content that players *could* be doing anywhere between the end of act 1 and the start of act 3. If you don't like the trend, then encourage developers to stop chasing the sandbox. In the mean time, you're not *forced* to chase down every side quest and task. You do know this, right?

 

3) Oh. Powergamer. Nevermind.

 

PS: the "top 20 or so RPGs of the last two-three decade" could mean anything depending on who you ask. Unfortunately, one of the best selling games in the last 10 years was Skyrim which had a classless system that eventually had to introduce a "legendary" mechanic to address people capping out abilities. So could we stop pretending that this is a "Deadfire" problem?

 

 

I'd like to continue, but you aren't even making sense at this point.  I finish Skyrim without being capped.  Same for the Fallouts, while we're on Bethesda.  And Witcher.  Plenty of other games have no caps at all.  The rest have a smooth progression where you reach max level at the end or hit it and then do your final 10-20% of the game.  For example, Dragon Age and Divinity.  This is fine.  Anyway, they'll do something for progression or level cap by the time of the last DLC.  Don't worry about it.

 

Out of curiosity, would you please give me the names of a few popular RPGs where you end character progression with 50% of the game left?  Thanks in advance.

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Increasing the level cap is literally free, there are mods that do it. New abilities would cost, due to having new animations and visual effects, and of course they'd need to further address enemy difficulty, but the alternative is ending up with a full game and three DLCs where players hit the level cap halfway through.

 

Of course, the benefit of having more abilities is that enemies can use them too...

Right. My bad for assuming that the people clamoring for an increased level cap wanted more than to see the little number go up.

 

Yes, the cost of developing new abilities, creating animations for them, several QA passes for balance, a narrative pass or two for higher level skill checks, etc is what I was referring to.

 

 

It's a psychological effect. Seeing a little number go up would be sufficient to keep some people actively engaged in the game when they would otherwise loose interest.

 

Meanwhile, I hit level 18 when I reached Ukaizo in my last playthrough. *shrug*

 

 

So you skipped roughly 25% of the content in the game.  Okay well yeah, I have to admit that this problem doesn't apply to you.  I'm fine with them doing something to Iron Man that slows progression or put in a blessing that does the same.  Not trying to ruin your game, friend, but I promise you that progression is demonstrably off if you actually try to complete everything.  It seems trivial to add a toggle or Blessing like: COMPLETIONIST - ALL XP GAINS ARE HALVED.  Fair?

 

Edit: Wow just realized you are the person I was replying to in my previous post too.  You skip so much content and then argue when people who actually like the game enough to explore it fully say that the exp gain is off?  I notice you have 3000 posts--put a little more of that time into actually playing the game and you may have a more nuanced perspective.

Edited by ilsendoodle
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Edit: Wow just realized you are the person I was replying to in my previous post too. You skip so much content and then argue when people who actually like the game enough to explore it fully say that the exp gain is off? I notice you have 3000 posts--put a little more of that time into actually playing the game and you may have a more nuanced perspective.

Keen eye for detail ya got there.

 

FWIW, the post in question was referencing my 4th playthrough, which put me over the 400 hour mark for Deadfire. So congratulations, your record for opening your mouth without knowing what you’re talking about is still safe and intact.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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