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History Thread Zero


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#41
injurai

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He's the Zapp Brannigan of English history.



#42
Malcador

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He's the Zapp Brannigan of English history.

Wouldn't that be Douglas Haig?

Wait, forgot he was a Scot.

Edited by Malcador, 14 September 2018 - 10:29 AM.


#43
Sarex

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That is a thing ?

 

Pretty much, at least what I can gather from modern medias take on it. It's a change of narrative, for example how western history and documentaries focus on the western front and trivialize the eastern one, or at least fail to mention it. You get the impression that the west broke the Nazis back and not that they were scrambling to stop the Soviets from taking most of Europe. Same with WW1, nowadays it would seem like everything could have been talked out if only there was no assassination. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the history books are being rewritten, but the modern media is spinning the truth on it's head. This is my impression at least.

 

Are you referring to any work in particular? Is this a thing in Serbia? I'm not sure that the view of Serbia as an "aggressor" (though they weren't exactly blameless) is mainstream.

 

Personally, I think that even more significant than Franz Ferdinand's assassination was Bismarck's dismissal ~25 years prior, and Germany's subsequent turn to a more overt imperialist policy, which inevitably steered it toward frontal conflict with other imperialist pigs of the day. Funny, Bismarck's fall came about as a result of left-wing gains and agitation at home and disagreements on how to deal with them... so yeah. Same old.

 

Disclaimer: extreme reductionism

 

edit: "sandwich theory" seems to deal with an engineering principle with a metric ****ton of math. If we could keep this thread free from differential equations, that would be great

 

As I said above I think it's more the modern media, no work in particular. There is a movement to shift the public opinion, at least that is the impression that I have been getting from watching/reading things.

 

Wrong theory. :) I should have expanded on it. I was talking about the narrative that the assassins were incompetent idiots who got lucky, ie. Gavrilo Princip eating a sandwich and seeing Franz by sheer luck. Also Fraz's last words to his wife and a bunch of other things. The whole story trivializes one side and glorifies the other.


Edited by Sarex, 14 September 2018 - 02:05 PM.


#44
Malcador

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Guess I will have to look around more, on the face of it one would think Serbia would have to be run by unstable people to be the agressor against A-H or at least I would think so.   You're right about Eastern Front not being focused on even though it is more interesting as the Wikipedia article states - 

 

The battles on the Eastern Front of the Second World War constituted the largest military confrontation in history.[6] They were characterized by unprecedented ferocity, wholesale destruction, mass deportations, and immense loss of life due to combat, starvation, exposure, disease, and massacres.

 

Oh great, just remembered Nov 11 is soon...going to be more crowing about Vimy in Canada



#45
Zoraptor

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It's a change of narrative, for example how western history and documentaries focus on the western front and trivialize the eastern one, or at least fail to mention it.

 

Dunno how much of it is 'deliberate' as a policy so much as a documentary on Patton single handed reconquering Europe selling better in the US. People love to be told they're uniquely heroic and special, nuanced takes about how the godless commies did the bulk of the heavy listing isn't such an inspiring tale.

 

Most serious docos handle the eastern front fine, but the dissonance between something like 'Soviet Storm' or 'World at War' and some of the puff piece History Channel type WW2 documentaries could scarcely be greater.



#46
213374U

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As I said above I think it's more the modern media, no work in particular. There is a movement to shift the public opinion, at least that is the impression that I have been getting from watching/reading things.
 
Wrong theory. :) I should have expanded on it. I was talking about the narrative that the assassins were incompetent idiots who got lucky, ie. Gavrilo Princip eating a sandwich and seeing Franz by sheer luck. Also Fraz's last words to his wife and a bunch of other things. The whole story trivializes one side and glorifies the other.


Can't say I've read anything to that effect, but I wouldn't be surprised if articles in some history mags were trying to pin more of the blame on Serbia, perhaps to advance the idea that WWI was just one more example of historical Russian aggression, since without Russian backing, Serbia may have yielded to the July 23 ultimatum. Do the articles you read mention Novichok being used in the assassination by any chance?

I mean, Nicholas II was a butcher, and a shallow, unmarked grave was the least he deserved. But it'd be pretty hard to seriously argue that WWI was solely -or even just mostly- Serbia's fault (and by proxy, Russia's).

 

As for sandwiches, I don't know. Wouldn't be the first historical event attributable to dumb luck. Would that really change anything?



#47
Ben No.3

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The, in my humble opinion, best vantage point regarding WWI I’ve heard of is it being long existening violence merely re-imported into Europe. The colonies were ravaged by conflict for a long time already, and so it is easy to view WWI through this lense, as peripheral violence being brought back to the centre.

#48
Gorth

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Strange. I always thought European colonist expansion was to raise money and resources for the main military powers, so they could afford to keep fighting each other in Europe. Sometimes European wars spilled over into the colonies, rarely the other way (I think, no hard evidence)



#49
pmp10

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As for sandwiches, I don't know. Wouldn't be the first historical event attributable to dumb luck. Would that really change anything?

I'd argue that quite a lot.

Franz Ferdinant had different policy in mind for Austro-Hungary and his survival wouldn't make for such a strong casus belli.

With rise of Germany and decline of Ottoman empire some conflict was inevitable, but it took a special combination of politics, industrialization and advances in military technology to produce the war on that scale. 






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