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Ansalons Armor Tier List

Armor Tier List Unique Build Guide

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#41
Ansalon

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@Ansalon: I gave constructive criticism - because I didn't simply say "hey it's crap" but wrote down why I think your lists are rather pointless (at least for me) and what could be improved.

I also didn't claim that you got infos from wiki and in-game descriptions: you wrote so yourself.

Calling that "hate" makes you look like a sensitive plant and not like somebody who really wants to discuss his stuff. I gave no insults, no personal attacks but just my personal opinion which in this case might feel harsh. But that doesn't mean I hate or that I don't appreciate the work you might have put into. I just don't think that the form you chose to present your work is very useful. That, and that your research isn't thoroughly done.

If I wouldn't care at all or simply "hate" I wouldn't put that much time into answering to your stuff, naming examples and so on.

I'm also not your boss. In your comparison I would be a colleague who says "it's pointless because X, maybe would be better to put it like Y".

Fair enough, a colleague then. If a colleague asked your opinion on a draft of a proposal he was gonna make, you wouldn't say that it his proposal is useless and then imply he has put little to no effort in it. That would be unneccesarily antagonistic. Even if you came with good pointers after it is human nature to not be as receptive to your ideas afterwards.



#42
Ansalon

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Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.



#43
Ansalon

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Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.



#44
mant2si

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Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

Because all range weapon has pierce damage, and Reckless Brigandine has 4 less pierce armor, this mean 1 - 2 skeleton ranger will shred you on the pieces, no matter how much you AS you has

>  It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

All enemies ranger weapon usually has Exceptional quality and ~(9 - 10) + (2 - 4) AR from PotD scaling - which mean each +1 armor multiplicative (yes damage reduction is multiplicative) reduce incoming damage by 25%, the simplest way to make your front-line get +75% damage reduction is take one potion of magic shield

This is average scenario for Patinated Plate, I played only solo with DD mod and I have Build around this armor, I know about what I talking, I even recorded a lot of videos with this armor

It make you near immune to most of melee guys in the game

> Average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

As I told this armor is completely useless for frontline without deflection stacking or unbending from fighter, on this forum we also discussion about  Brigandine, and average speed bonus is something like 17% recovery speed 
 


Edited by mant2si, 13 August 2018 - 02:54 AM.


#45
Ansalon

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I think Effigy Husk should be S tier and Swift Hunter's Garb a tier lower but other than that looks good.

Why would you rate Effigys Husk that highly? Most of its effects are based on you getting hit, and if you are wearing a robe you probably don't want to be getting hit.Is it for the immunity to might/perception affliction?



#46
Ansalon

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By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ;)). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

High Harbinger's Robes begs to defer.

 

Also weapon switching on 4 weapon slots fire arms with Fleshmender and never reloading. 

 

List isn't updated for BoW.



#47
pi2repsion

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@Ansalon, the problem with your statement "Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable." is that you are likely to find a great many people in this forum who outright disagree with your notion that such clear cut cases exist, or at least that the cases you find clear cut are such in the first place.

 

As an example, take your trash tier, which contains Deltro's Cage. You look at it and see "+2 All Electricity Power Levels could have been great on Fury (Druid subclass) but 55% recovery time makes it garbage", which means that you've dismissed a very, very, powerful armour for some kinds of druids out of hand due to being overly concerned with the recovery penalty.

 

Deltro's Cage is probably the best armour in the game if you want an electric demigod in your party. It is not an armour that (in your words) "can go up or down a tier depending if you use them in a specific build", it is an armour that goes right to the top when used correctly and is pretty poor when not.

 

Somebody with just a bit more experience in the game would say, "increased power levels is one of the most powerful properties on any item for activated abilities so long as the user makes good use of it, and +2 electricity screams druid, and a free Relentless Storm via enchant is good, and PL bonuses stack so that stacks with +3 storm power from Darryn's Voulge on a druid on all spells that are both electricity and storm, and there are a few other sources of electricity damage in the game on uniques, some of them very powerful (and best of all, they can be gotten in the early game)", would try it out, and would discover that running around with +5 PL to electrical storms is absurdly powerful. The recovery penalty isn't nice, but we can get around that, mostly. This can work nicely for a Fury or a Fury/Evoker, but while powerful it feels a bit clunky even with maxed dex and Abraham pet. Still, heavily armoured caster that doesn't cast that often, but when he does, it hurts, is a good start.

 

 

And you can take it in other directions, e.g. multiclassing with barbarian, fighter or monk for recovery bonuses, which is how we got Ascaloth's Fate Testarossa Fury/Helwalker build. Or how about the inspired genius that got us the very powerful God of Storms Watershaper/Stormspeaker Tekehu companion build? Druid electricity and storm spells and T1, T3, and T6 electricity offensive invocations? (and healing, and frost spells/invocations too).

 

I hope you will agree after reading this that dismissing some items as clear cut cases of being straight up bad isn't as easy as all that, and that in at least one case you have erred in that regard in your list.

 

EDIT: Clarified in the above that Lord Darryn's Voulge doesn't give +3 electricity power level but +3 storm power level. There's a significant overlap in druid spells of those two keywords that thus end up with +5 as most storms are electrical, but some storms are not and thus only gain +3, just as a few spells are electrical but not storm and thus only gain +2.


Edited by pi2repsion, 13 August 2018 - 05:08 PM.

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#48
Ansalon

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Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

Because all range weapon has pierce damage, and Reckless Brigandine has 4 less pierce armor, this mean 1 - 2 skeleton ranger will shred you on the pieces, no matter how much you AS you has

>  It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

All enemies ranger weapon usually has Exceptional quality and ~(9 - 10) + (2 - 4) AR from PotD scaling - which mean each +1 armor multiplicative (yes damage reduction is multiplicative) reduce incoming damage by 25%, the simplest way to make your front-line get +75% damage reduction is take one potion of magic shield

This is average scenario for Patinated Plate, I played only solo with DD mod and I have Build around this armor, I know about what I talking, I even recorded a lot of videos with this armor

It make you near immune to most of melee guys in the game

> Average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

As I told this armor is completely useless for frontline without deflection stacking or unbending from fighter, on this forum we also discussion about  Brigandine, and average speed bonus is something like 17% recovery speed 
 

 

If you are playing on PoTD Upscaling i'm assuming you are knowledgeable enough about game mechanics to play around worst case scenarios of any particular build/ite,. Just because an item does have a conditional weakness doesn't mean you can't easily make up for it by utilizing consumables, temporarily swapping the item out or just approaching that particular fight with that particular weakness in mind.


Edited by Ansalon, 13 August 2018 - 03:07 AM.


#49
Raven Darkholme

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Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but that value is outside of combat and has absolutely zilch to do with monk abilities.

I hoped that would have been clear when I talked about how a fighter would get slightly better recovery.

Any class with patinated plate, 18 base dex and abraham gets this attack speed.

I'm using a flail with the monk shield (counts as dual wielding for speed bonus) but the weapon type would once again not change the recovery by more than 0.1 - 0.2s, diminishing returns are quite a big thing once you have high dex. (which you should have if you're that concerned about recovery.)



#50
mant2si

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... oh let's stop discussion I wrote my opinion and some arguments only to make new players understand that in current state this list is useless



#51
Ansalon

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@Ansalon, the problem with your statement "Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable." is that you are likely to find a great many people in this forum who outright disagree with your notion that such clear cut cases exist, or at least that the cases you find clear cut are such in the first place.

 

As an example, take your trash tier, which contains Deltro's Cage. You look at it and see "+2 All Electricity Power Levels could have been great on Fury (Druid subclass) but 55% recovery time makes it garbage", which means that you've dismissed a very, very, powerful armour for some kinds of druids out of hand due to being overly concerned with the recovery penalty.

 

Deltro's Cage is probably the best armour in the game if you want an electric demigod in your party. It is not an armour that (in your words) "can go up or down a tier depending if you use them in a specific build", it is an armour that goes right to the top when used correctly and is pretty poor when not.

 

Somebody with just a bit more experience in the game would say, "increased power levels is one of the most powerful properties on any item for activated abilities so long as the user makes good use of it, and +2 electricity screams druid, and a free Relentless Storm via enchant is good, and PL bonuses stack so that stacks with +3 electricity power from Darryn's Voulge on a druid, and there are a few other sources of electricity damage in the game on uniques, some of them very powerful (and best of all, they can be gotten in the early game)", would try it out, and would discover that running around with +5 PL to electricity is absurdly powerful. The recovery penalty isn't nice, but we can get around that, mostly. This can work nicely for a Fury or a Fury/Evoker, but while powerful it feels a bit clunky even with maxed dex and Abraham pet. Still, heavily armoured caster that doesn't cast that often, but when he does, it hurts, is a good start.

 

And you can take it in other directions, e.g. multiclassing with barbarian, fighter or monk for recovery bonuses, which is how we got Ascaloth's Fate Testarossa Fury/Helwalker build. Or how about the inspired genius that got us the very powerful God of Storms Watershaper/Stormspeaker Tekehu companion build? Druid electricity spells and T1, T3, and T6 electricity offensive invocations? (and healing, and frost spells/invocations too).

 

I hope you will agree after reading this that dismissing some items as clear cut cases of being straight up bad isn't as easy as all that, and that in at least one case you have erred in that regard in your list.

Moved Deltro's Cage up to tier A based on your feedback. Willing to discuss if it deserves higher placement, but at 55% recovery im reluctant. I will more then readily agree that there are probably multiple synergies I haven't taken into account for with my writeups. I even pointed this out in the preface to the guides. I hope you are willing to concede that it is wortwhile to make an attempt at a draft for a list, then adjusting it based on feedback.



#52
Ansalon

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Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but that value is outside of combat and has absolutely zilch to do with monk abilities.

I hoped that would have been clear when I talked about how a fighter would get slightly better recovery.

Any class with patinated plate, 18 base dex and abraham gets this attack speed.

I'm using a flail with the monk shield (counts as dual wielding for speed bonus) but the weapon type would once again not change the recovery by more than 0.1 - 0.2s, diminishing returns are quite a big thing once you have high dex. (which you should have if you're that concerned about recovery.)

 

If you are presenting me with incomplete information I can only make educated guesses on what you have in mind.



#53
Raven Darkholme

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This is my last reply to you, since this is going nowhere:

I presented complete information (I never said I was counting monks in combat values), but you assumed I didn't.



#54
Ansalon

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This is my last reply to you, since this is going nowhere:

I presented complete information (I never said I was counting monks in combat values), but you assumed I didn't.

You didn't list what dex you were using,what weapons, or what other effects you were taking into account in your original post. I probably should have prefaced my assumptions and asked more follow up questions. If you don't want to discuss this further thats fine.


Edited by Ansalon, 13 August 2018 - 04:38 AM.


#55
eschu101

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Miscreants is one the best because that 5% chance to ignore attack, and the fact that you get it very early with no effort at all...that should be considered.

Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

Theres vatnir robe too, very very good for glass cannon dps



#56
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What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

#57
Parasol_Syndicate

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Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

 

But guys, didn't you read the guide? It's the worst armor in the game!

You're not supposed to use armor for armor or deflection, and tanks never need to leave engagement. Even though Nomad's provides all of that at once. 

 

You could be stacking action speed and sucking down healing potions like a real pro!  :facepalm:

 

Yeah, I kid. It's the only heavy armor I use regularly. (Reckless Brig is good too, though)


Edited by Parasol_Syndicate, 13 August 2018 - 01:54 PM.

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#58
1TTFFSSE

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Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

 

But guys, didn't you read the guide? It's the worst armor in the game!

You're not supposed to use armor for armor or deflection, and tanks never need to leave engagement. Even though Nomad's provides all of that at once. 

 

You could be stacking action speed and sucking down healing potions like a real pro!  :facepalm:

 

Yeah, I kid. It's the only heavy armor I use regularly. 

 

chugging pots while ignoring deeps...I like it!


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#59
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By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ;)). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

My claim was supposed to be this item is the one who has the best mix of survivability/recovery time for a dpser. I'm assuming most people understand that 0% recovery of a robe is faster then 10% recovery of this armor ;)

 

 

 Did you miss Boeroer's point? If you choose the right pet, a character with Miscreant's Leathers will be faster than one with a robe. 



#60
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I was speaking in defense of Ansalon in this case which he might have missed. :)
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