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Ansalons One Handed Melee Weapon Tier List

Weapon Unique Tier List Guide One Handed Melee

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#21
M4xw0lf

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Is this list perfect?

No, but with an internet full of opinions, what could ever satisfy the ravenous maw of debate?

Personally, I like lists because they “attempt” to provide some structure of classification that can be debated and refined over time.

To say, “you never used it” so your list is meaningless is simply absurd, borderline obstinate. Are these lists ideal? No, but far from useless. University professors may spend lifetimes researching ancient weapons and armor, but is their work pointless because they never thrust a drusus into the heart of a charging opponent? The answer is no... they do their best studying available opinions, researching ancient accounts, comparing the metallurgy, etc. In short, doing their best with the available numbers, data points, and reports.

The original poster did a decent job with the classification lists, and he or she should be commended for their effort. What we, as a productive community, should do, is help constructively refine this list through debate and sharing experiences.

My suggestion... we’ve already flogged the author... instead, let’s help refine the list. Yes, there will always be exceptions around certain builds, but to say we can’t distinguish the superiority of Devil of Caroc armor or Magran’s Favor axe is just being stubborn.

Thank you for reading my post in it's intended state. I was hoping to spark a discussion with another audience like I did on reddit. I'm still hopeful this is possible. To anyone reading my posts, sorry if im coming of abrasive. It just sucks when you put a lot of effort into something and then people take a big **** on it.

 

I appreaciate your effort on these lists, but you have to realize that this here is the place where the most in-depth discussions on Pillars' game mechanics are led, and where people will be interested in using every single item to its fullest potential. Under these conditions your lists are bound to fail, because you cannot hope to compile all the best use cases for every single unique item within a lifetime (at least as someone who is not paid to do this for 40 hours a week).



#22
Ansalon

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I'm already wrote this in your armor post, but just group weapon by their type and give advise which build can or cannot use it, i'm sure most of the people on this forum will help you with your guide then

You can mark from A - D for example amount of builds which can use this weapon 

Then the intention of the guides becomes very different then what I had intended. No one is forcing you to contribute to the discussion. There is always gonna be different preferences on how things should be done. I will listen to feedback, but in the end it is my guide based on my opinions/experiences and I can format it however I see fit. I'm not sure but it kinda seems like some people doesn't like the fact im trying to make value judgments about the viability of different items? Then this guide and my future guides will probably not be your cup of tea and thats fine. You can chose to hate on it, contribute to it or ignore it. Noone is gonna stop you.



#23
Boeroer

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.
And you are using a personal attack to express your frustration.

I never said that you did 0 tests. You said you didn't test them all - I say that the list is rather pointless then. Because some of your opinions are based on tests and some not. And we can't say which ones. So we can't trust your judgement on all of them because we always must fear that you didn't test that one particular item I'm interested in.

This is not personal - I just don't think your list is good. If you will improve it in the future with edits, based on feedback then I will be happy to tap your shoulder - even though I generally think that tier lists in Deadfire are... difficult. Better make an informative list of pros and cons and recommendations for which build/role a certain item would be useful. But even a tier list would be ok. It will always be biased but as long as the infos around it are correct it's good enough.

Edited by Boeroer, 12 August 2018 - 07:42 AM.

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#24
Ansalon

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.
And you are using a personal attack to express your frustration.

I never said that you did 0 tests. You said you didn't test them all - I say that the list is rather pointless then. Because some of your opinions are based on tests and some not. And we can't say which ones. So we can't trust your judgement on all of them because we always must fear that you didn't test that one particular item I'm interested in.

This is not personal - I just don't think your list is good. If you will improve it in the future with edits, based on feedback then I will be happy to tap your shoulder - even though I generally think that tier lists in Deadfire are... difficult. Better make an informative list of pros and cons and recommendations for which build/role a certain item would be useful. But even a tier list would be ok. It will always be biased but as long as the infos around it are correct it's good enough.

 

You said among other things; "As with the other two lists: no point when having no in-game experience with them or reading about in-game experience." and "Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well." How is this not claiming I did 0 tests? If you actually read the entirety of the posts you will see very clearly i discuss things in detail. I'm willing to drop this matter and move forward. Its pretty difficult to have a discussion when we are both typing across multiple posts. It just seems like a big waste of time. I will try my best to update the lists, but it might take me some time due rl responsibilities.



#25
Vitalis

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.

He's taken your statement and applied it to the weapons that you think are ****. How do I know that? Your very description and ranking of Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning indicates that you think very poorly of them, however testing indicates that they are quite powerful.

He didn't make a strawman argument, maybe you should learn what one is before you start throwing it around.

#26
Ansalon

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.
And you are using a personal attack to express your frustration.

I never said that you did 0 tests. You said you didn't test them all - I say that the list is rather pointless then. Because some of your opinions are based on tests and some not. And we can't say which ones. So we can't trust your judgement on all of them because we always must fear that you didn't test that one particular item I'm interested in.

This is not personal - I just don't think your list is good. If you will improve it in the future with edits, based on feedback then I will be happy to tap your shoulder - even though I generally think that tier lists in Deadfire are... difficult. Better make an informative list of pros and cons and recommendations for which build/role a certain item would be useful. But even a tier list would be ok. It will always be biased but as long as the infos around it are correct it's good enough.

 

I'm not sure where I did a personal attack. It's abit hard to follow since we have posted in multiple places but if I did, I'm sorry. As i pointed out in another post you did make the claim serveral times that I had only based my information of wikis and had no ingame experience with it. But again, I'm willing to drop it and discuss the actual game.



#27
Boeroer

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You said among other things; "As with the other two lists: no point when having no in-game experience with them or reading about in-game experience." and "Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well." How is this not claiming I did 0 tests?



In a lot of ways: Interpret it as I meant it: "no point [making a tier list] when having no in-game experience with [several of] them" and "because judging weapons based on their description alone [and putting them into a tier list with others you did test] doesn't work well".

Don't read something mean(er) into my sentences than there is.

I never said you did zero tests nor that you have no in-game experience at all. I said a tier list is pointless because you put items in there that you have tested and ones that you haven't. The "no in-game experience" and "description alone" was aimed at those items, not all of your posts.

#28
Boeroer

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I'm not sure where I did a personal attack. It's abit hard to follow since we have posted in multiple places but if I did, I'm sorry. As i pointed out in another post you did make the claim serveral times that I had only based my information of wikis and had no ingame experience with it. But again, I'm willing to drop it and discuss the actual game.


You called me disingenous. But that's no problem, I'm not offended by it - so just forget it. :)

Edited by Boeroer, 12 August 2018 - 10:17 AM.


#29
Ansalon

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I'm not sure where I did a personal attack. It's abit hard to follow since we have posted in multiple places but if I did, I'm sorry. As i pointed out in another post you did make the claim serveral times that I had only based my information of wikis and had no ingame experience with it. But again, I'm willing to drop it and discuss the actual game.


You called me disingenous. But that's no problem, I'm not offended by it - so just forget it. :)

 

Ah yes sorry it came out abit wrong. I intended to say that strawman arguments are disingenous, not you as a person.



#30
Ansalon

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.
And you are using a personal attack to express your frustration.

I never said that you did 0 tests. You said you didn't test them all - I say that the list is rather pointless then. Because some of your opinions are based on tests and some not. And we can't say which ones. So we can't trust your judgement on all of them because we always must fear that you didn't test that one particular item I'm interested in.

This is not personal - I just don't think your list is good. If you will improve it in the future with edits, based on feedback then I will be happy to tap your shoulder - even though I generally think that tier lists in Deadfire are... difficult. Better make an informative list of pros and cons and recommendations for which build/role a certain item would be useful. But even a tier list would be ok. It will always be biased but as long as the infos around it are correct it's good enough.

 

You are entitled to think my list isn't very good. The only thing I ask is that you read the guide the way it's intended and stop taking things out of context. I think all of the factual statements are correct (I did go by ingame values after Patch 1.2 but obviosuly some might be incorrect). The rest of course, is subjective opinion, and is liable to change based on new information. A very clear cut example is if someone tries to imply I mean that Miscreant's Leather is the armor that is going to make you deal the most damage, which is a pretty far-fetched way of stretching the intention behind my comments for the armor.


Edited by Ansalon, 12 August 2018 - 12:08 PM.


#31
arkane83

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I'm already wrote this in your armor post, but just group weapon by their type and give advise which build can or cannot use it, i'm sure most of the people on this forum will help you with your guide then

You can mark from A - D for example amount of builds which can use this weapon


I was just typing a similar suggestion. I would rate how the weapons are useful to the various roles, striker, controller, tank, and support.

Try it like this:

Gladiator Sword
Striker *
Tank ****
Controller **
Support **
This is an early game sword found during the main quest on the starter island. While not the best, in terms of damage, this weapon is great for your tank when you find it. Make sure to buy the sharpening upgrade as soon as you find this. You will probably have the ingreadients, and the extra pen will help your tank contribute some damage. This can be given to anyone who may want a few extra deflection, but its use is fairly limited to early game. Strikers will have much better options, so they should give this to a companion.

#32
Ansalon

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I'm already wrote this in your armor post, but just group weapon by their type and give advise which build can or cannot use it, i'm sure most of the people on this forum will help you with your guide then

You can mark from A - D for example amount of builds which can use this weapon


I was just typing a similar suggestion. I would rate how the weapons are useful to the various roles, striker, controller, tank, and support.

Try it like this:

Gladiator Sword
Striker *
Tank ****
Controller **
Support **
This is an early game sword found during the main quest on the starter island. While not the best, in terms of damage, this weapon is great for your tank when you find it. Make sure to buy the sharpening upgrade as soon as you find this. You will probably have the ingreadients, and the extra pen will help your tank contribute some damage. This can be given to anyone who may want a few extra deflection, but its use is fairly limited to early game. Strikers will have much better options, so they should give this to a companion.

 

I will keep this in mind for when i make a weapons progression guide. Your idea seems more appropriate for that then for a guide that is discussing a weapon based on it's endgame enchantments.



#33
Ansalon

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You said among other things; "As with the other two lists: no point when having no in-game experience with them or reading about in-game experience." and "Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well." How is this not claiming I did 0 tests?



In a lot of ways: Interpret it as I meant it: "no point [making a tier list] when having no in-game experience with [several of] them" and "because judging weapons based on their description alone [and putting them into a tier list with others you did test] doesn't work well".

Don't read something mean(er) into my sentences than there is.

I never said you did zero tests nor that you have no in-game experience at all. I said a tier list is pointless because you put items in there that you have tested and ones that you haven't. The "no in-game experience" and "description alone" was aimed at those items, not all of your posts.

 

If you can't concede the point that you have made multiple overtly hostile and misleading claims about my post then I'm not sure we can come to an understanding. If it happened once or twice it could just be me misinterpreting but it has happened on so many occasions. You have repeated the same statements multiple times aswell, and when I call you out on it you backpedal. If you have any suggestions about placing an item in a different tier I will take your opinion into account, but at this point I feel like I have spent enough time and energy arguing with you on matters that are pretty pointless.



#34
Ansalon

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I haven't tested them all

Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.
You are taking the statement "I haven't tested them all" and turn it into "I have done 0 tests" which is a strawman argument and very disingenuous.

He's taken your statement and applied it to the weapons that you think are ****. How do I know that? Your very description and ranking of Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning indicates that you think very poorly of them, however testing indicates that they are quite powerful.

He didn't make a strawman argument, maybe you should learn what one is before you start throwing it around.

 

A strawman is when someone is trying to make it seem like they refuted someones argument, by misrepresenting their argument and then providing evidence against the misrepresented version. He has done that multiple times on several occasions.



#35
thundercleese

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If you have any suggestions about placing an item in a different tier I will take your opinion into account

You keep saying this, yet despite many suggestions and feedback there have been no changes made?



#36
Clerith

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If you have any suggestions about placing an item in a different tier I will take your opinion into account

You keep saying this, yet despite many suggestions and feedback there have been no changes made?

 

From what I see, no changes were made based on reddit "feedback" either.

 

The OP is also known for advertising his stream and other social media and donation link on reddit. It's not pure spam - he does have lists, some guides and high difficulty streams. So I think he's genuine. I think he's put some hours in. But in my personal opinion, everything seems just a little off, and the media follow spam gets a little annoying. I think he puts mediocre effort into creating content to try to get some views and money.


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#37
Ansalon

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If you have any suggestions about placing an item in a different tier I will take your opinion into account

You keep saying this, yet despite many suggestions and feedback there have been no changes made?

 

Its because I have spent effort on arguing pointless **** like this instead of actually making edits to the guide.



#38
Ansalon

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If you have any suggestions about placing an item in a different tier I will take your opinion into account

You keep saying this, yet despite many suggestions and feedback there have been no changes made?

 

From what I see, no changes were made based on reddit "feedback" either.

 

The OP is also known for advertising his stream and other social media and donation link on reddit. It's not pure spam - he does have lists, some guides and high difficulty streams. So I think he's genuine. I think he's put some hours in. But in my personal opinion, everything seems just a little off, and the media follow spam gets a little annoying. I think he puts mediocre effort into creating content to try to get some views and money.

 

Then you didn't look hard enough. Sometimes I made changes on feedback, the other times i argued against it and was unconvinced. One of my hopes of posting on this forum was to get more feedback to improve the list. If you think my content is mediocre that's fine. I have only been doing this about a month and I'm still looking to improve. I'm not ashamed to admit that I was hoping putting out content would lead to increased viewers. But that is not the sole reason I made the guides. It was mainly for my own enjoyment as a hobby. I do believe my content has value, even if there are several improvements to be made.



#39
Ansalon

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I haven't tested them all


Then the list is of little relevance, right?

Because judging weapons based on their description alone doesn't work well.

Take Scordeos Edge: you can't know that its bonuses work for all weapons you use unless you used it. You'd have to test it to find out.

Also that Grave Calling and Hel Beckoning can be used to summon imps that don't count towards the summon limit and let you create a huge imp army (if you pair it with the right classes) can only be experienced by testing (or reading people's posts about testing).

Another example (not one-handed though): the Espirs estoc will proc Ghost Blades on kill. That's the description. Sounds rather lame because Ghost Blades only have 8-11 base damage. What the description doesn't say and what you can only find out via testing is that those Ghost Blades profit from the enchantments of the blade, from all passive abilities that work with the blade (e.g. Sneak Attach, Two Handed Style etc.). And that not only kills with the Blade trigger those "empowered" Ghost Blades but all kills as long as you hold the weapon. This includes the Ghost Blades themselves which can therefore proc themselves. So, the difference between description and actual behavior is huge.

There are so many behaviors that only get revealed once you use an item - a tier list (partially) based on item description is rather pointless in my opinion.

 

Hel Beckoning and Grave calling only summon when killing spirits/Vessels no? So as in the preface to my guide, items like these will be very powerful in those rare circumstances but terrible in others.



#40
Ansalon

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Scordeo's Edge is the sabre with the stacking accuracy buff - Scordeo's Trophy is the pistol with the stacking recovery buff. Scordeo's Edge is very easy to stack the accuracy, which makes it synergize very well with on crit effects (like Rust's as I mentioned). Abilities that hit multiple times/multiple foes at once will grant one stack per hit, which makes it devastating in the hands of a monk with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming (again, as I already stated). Even if you don't use a crit weapon, more accuracy = more hits and crits = more dps. It applies to both weapons if you DW too.

 

The problem we have is that you are rating some very powerful weapons very lowly, because you obviously haven't tested them sufficiently. Easy fix is to remove anything you haven't properly tested from all the lists.

Wasn't aware that aoe abilities gave you muiltiple stacks with these weapons. My testing was done with single target damage. Updated the list.







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