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Ansalons Ranged Weapon Tier List

Guide Weapon Unique Ranged Tier List

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83 replies to this topic

#41
Boeroer

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As feared. ;)

How high is the lash with 20 Metaphysics (which would be realistic in an uncheated playtrough)? Or let's put it differently: what is the gain per point of Metaphysics?

#42
Kaylon

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As feared. ;)

How high is the lash with 20 Metaphysics (which would be realistic in an uncheated playtrough)? Or let's put it differently: what is the gain per point of Metaphysics?

In fact the whole point was to give you a nice round number, easy to remember, so you can do the math by yourself.  ;)



#43
Dorftek

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0.5 per point is truly bad. Most players who play this game who don't look into these kind of things might think ""scales with metaphysics", nice I'll put it on my *insert class* because she has 8 metaphysics how awesome" not realising they would only get a measly 4% lash :p
1% per point wouldn't be OP especially not for the majority of players
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#44
Boeroer

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As feared. ;)

How high is the lash with 20 Metaphysics (which would be realistic in an uncheated playtrough)? Or let's put it differently: what is the gain per point of Metaphysics?

In fact the whole point was to give you a nice round number, easy to remember, so you can do the math by yourself. ;)
I couldn't because I'm not home and don't know how high the lash starts. And last time I checked the Essence Interruptor wasn't in a wiki yet. So I assumed one could get a simple answer instead of trying to search for that stuff.

Since I guessed that the bow doesn't start at 0 lash but rather starts at something like 10 or so and then reaches 20 with 40 Metaphysics it was impossible for me to do any math with a definite outcome. You needed to provide either the value for 20 Metaphysics or even better the value for each point of Metaphysics - I mean between lifting the jester's cap and pulling up the smarty-pants. :p

But I've checked again and found the bow in the fextralife wiki. It starts at 5. So if it reaches 20 at Metaphysics 40 that would mean each point of Metaphysics will add 0.375. Is that correct?

Edited by Boeroer, 23 August 2018 - 02:07 AM.


#45
Kaylon

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Yes, it's 0.375%/point for a total of 12.5% at lv20.


Edited by Kaylon, 23 August 2018 - 03:07 AM.

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#46
Dorftek

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Holy **** that's even worse

#47
Teclis23

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I ran both an essence interupter and redhand build in my last playthrough.

It was extremely obviously clear that the red hand out dps it. I kept checking the total damage done on both characters regularly because i was very interested in the outcome.

I did not find the summons on the bow that useful. If anything the summons just got in my way and it was not consistently summoning anything powerful. Most of the time just trash.

The red hand is clearly a better weapon but the essence bow is also very powerful.

#48
thundercleese

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On my tests with IIRC 23 Metaphysics the lash was about 12.5% so yeah it's pretty underwhelming.



#49
Teclis23

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Aamiina's Legacy (and probably Essence Interrupter too) should be in the god tier with the Red Hand. Dual damage, no blunted criticals, no reduced range, with 20%lash it hits almost as hard as the Red Hand and Rapid Shot allows to easily attack under 2s... Rapid Shot penalty is less harsh than for pistols because hunting bows have +5 accuracy bonus (hunting bow with Rapid Shot has only 5 less accuracy than an arquebus). The only drawback is the penetration, but with the right choices you can overcome it rather easily.

 

You don't take into account the fact that the base damage for Arquebus is much higher. You mention a lot of the weapon effects of Hunting Bow but if you compare a normal Arquebus next to a Hunting bow thoughs effects are balanced around having different recovery, base dmg, penetration, modals etc.It's simpler to just look at what additional modifiers the weapons of themselves get, to get a comparison on the relative strength of the weapons. Basically  the total theoretical dmg output of Red Hand is gonna roughly double that of Essence Interrupter if you have a lot of Guilty Conscience stack.  If you compare it to a standard Arquebus it attacks twice (bit less then doubling its dps, due to having two attack animations), then another 40% from max stacked Guilty Conscience.

 

Essence Interrupter gets a 20% Lash effect, which is multiplicative dmg, making it decent. This is obviously simplified and won't translate 100% into game but its close enough to see the massive disparity. Got some feedback on the summon for Essence Interrupter on reddit and it was better then my initial assumption (summoned creature does scale with enemy level), so Im planning to move it into B - Tier atleast but my post seems to be bugged atm.

 

Well, then you don't understand very well how it works...

 

The 20% lash damage basically compensates for the lower base damage. The main dmg advantage of the Red Hand is given by Guilty Conscience which can be used by ALL weapons (and by itself it represents overall only a 10-20% dmg increase - depending on your total dmg bonuses). On the other hand Aamiina's Legacy will shoot at least 10% faster (based on the average attack of a double shot with the Red Hand).

 

That means Aamiina's Legacy has 10% lower dps than the Red Hand in the worst scenario and 20% higher dps in the best scenario (if you're using Guilty Conscience with Aamiina's Legacy)

 

If I understand you correct, you mean that you first stack The Red Hand to max THEN swap to Aaminas Legacy and you retain the buff? That obviously does complicate the calculation, but seems very cumbersome especially since the buff resets on rest. There might be something i'm missing but attacking twice should be a much more powerful effect unless you have insane recovery time compared to a 20% lash. Are you making the case that Hunting Bows are just way better weapons then Arquebus and that compensates for a weaker effect, or that the Lash effect is stronger then shooting twice? It just seems you are only taking into account the positve effects of a Hunting Bow and not the negative effects like lower pen, weapon modal giving a huge accuracy penalty, lower base dmg etc.

The main damage advantage of the Red Hand is the ability to shoot twice, not Guilty Conscience.

 

Shooting twice without reloading is like having an arquebus with half reloading time. Rapid Shot does nearly the same thing for the recovery time of the bow.

 

The average base damage of the Red Hand is 23. The average base damage of the hunting bow is 19. That's 21% higher base damage for the arquebus, but Aamiina's Legacy has 20% lash which is almost as good.

 

After that the Red Hand has 3 more penetration and 5 more accuracy but less range and blunted criticals, only a damage type and, of course, the buff (which can be considered an advantage or not). 

 

PS. Playing without resting is perfectly viable and the buff is easily obtained if you have a chanter.

 

An extra 3 PEN is a pretty huge. Like out of this ballpark huge

 

Ive played hundreds of hours on POE1 and alot of Deadfire and in the whole time ive been playing these games the red hand is the only weapon i have ever wanted obsidian to nerf. I personally will never use it ever again because you can win most encounters with it by just auto-attacking which is super boring.

 

The fact you can do all this DPS from range without entering combat has IMO been overlooked. It would be far more fun to have a OP melee weapon like the redhand so it actually encouraged you to engage in melee and not just hover on the outskirts of battle blasting everything with it.


Edited by Teclis23, 23 August 2018 - 09:34 PM.


#50
Dorftek

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The red hand doesn't need a nerf, it just needs to be fixed so it doesn't keep giving u the dmg buff indefinitely because that's where things start getting out of hand.
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#51
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I'm using it right now and don't find it overwhelmingly good. Only against lower level vessels Double Tap is really great. But I often do higher level encounters, so even that doesn't help me too often.

It has half the reloading time, which is nice but nothing too powerful. At the same time I can't be bothered to plan my rests based on that annoying damage bonus which is rather low per kill. For a solo run this might be nicer. In a party it isn't worth the hassle.
I have Watershaper's Focus + Ondra's Wrath in the party which is used by my Spellblade Aloth - so nothing too fancy - and it does a LOT more damage than the Red Hand. I also have a Nalpasca/Berserker with the Espirs Estoc who triggers Ghost-Blade-Cascades with Torment's Reach and my backstabbing Edér deals tremendous AoE alpha strikes with Oathbreaker's End if he manages to kill a squishy enemy right out of stealth.
Those two also feel more powerful than the single-target Red Hand. Against lower level vessels it's truly awesome though.

It's also really nice on an Essential Phantom. Since it doesn't need special abilities to be good it works very well on that summon.

What I noticed: the Red Hand works with Cleave although Cleaving Stance clearly says "melee weapon". It that the case with all ranged weapons now or is it just the Red Hand?

Edited by Boeroer, 23 August 2018 - 11:11 PM.

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#52
Teclis23

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You dont find the red hand overwhelmingly good?

I smell a biased opinion there. Maybe you dont want the devs to read this and nerf it? Or some other reason?

It is pretty clear the gun is ridiculous. You spend alot of time discovering rare synergies aswell remember. The average joe playing this game would never come across ways of achieving dps anywhere near as high as this gun. Maybe this is why you find it not so good.

#53
Manveru123

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I have Watershaper's Focus + Ondra's Wrath in the party which is used by my Spellblade Aloth - so nothing too fancy - and it does a LOT more damage than the Red Hand.

In similar circumstances? By auto-attacking? Or do you have to work for it a bit instead of just right clicking? :p



#54
Teclis23

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The WS focus is currently bugged. Read boererers deep leep build and the comments under it.

#55
Boeroer

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Dude for the third time: it is not bugged! It works as intended but that's just too powerful.

The Red Hand on the other hand is bugged.
That the damage bonus works with all weapons and when handig the arquebus around can't be intended. Also the Knockback is bugged.

I told you why I think it's not overwhelmingly good. I can't help it if you can't follow.

In similar circumstances? By auto-attacking? Or do you have to work for it a bit instead of just right clicking?

Don't know how "you have to work for it" is defined, but Aloth casts Infuse and then fires an Arterial-Strike Blast at the enemies that surround my tank. End of Story. :) Things that you would do with any ranged AoE attack. No luring or other stuff involved. Still eleminates 50 % of the enemies around the tank right where they stand (the more the better it works).

The disadvantage of the Red Hand is that it's restricted to single target damage. Against single enemies it's great, as I already said, but not so ridiculously good that it needs a nerf besides the bugfixig I guess. Maybe a lower base dmasge instead of reduced range would have been better Balance-weise, but I think it's not gamebreaking how it is.

Other weapons simply have a bigger impact.

Of course if you use a Scout to build around it with Driving Flight/Damage bonuses, reloading bonuses and whatnot it's going to perform a lot better than if a wizard is using it. But that's not the fault of the weapon. All arquebuses (besides Three Bells Through) do that (with twice the reloading time).

Edited by Boeroer, 24 August 2018 - 03:11 AM.

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#56
thundercleese

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I also showed you video proof that other weapons (Frostseeker in this example) perform far better on an identical build. The Red Hand even had an advantage in that example in that it a) has the Gunner talent and b) Maia's armour provides 20% reload speed vs Miscreant's 10% recovery.

 

As Boeroer said above and I also said in the other thread; it is a good weapon, especially against vessels and single targets. But in the vast majority of fights any weapon that can do AoE damage is going to vastly outperform it.


Edited by thundercleese, 25 August 2018 - 02:26 PM.


#57
Teclis23

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I had a rogue/ monk set up with dual hand mortars and the redhand blew it away in dps.

I dont think the frost bow out dps it by the way either. Maybe on trash mobs it might

#58
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How one can simply ignore math and video evidence is beyond me. But then: voting for Trump and being anti-vaxxer also is.
So I have to accept that there are people out there who have a totally different perception of (virtual) reality than I have. ;)

However - we already went through this twice: with the "rogue vs. druid" and "rogue vs. ranger" debates in the PoE forums long time ago. Where you wouldn't accept that a rogue does not "vastly out-dps" a druid or ranger - despite detailed explanations from mutiple forum members that were based on math, in game data and common sense. So I guess also in this case further arguing is futile. The points were made, people can reread it and decide who backed their claims better.

I (and others here) don't think the Red Hand deserves a nerf besides the obvious bugfixes that messes up its dmg bonus and its Knockback. You think it's the best weapon in the game (accompanied by the inevitable hyperbolic adverbs) and therefore needs a nerf. Let's just leave it there...

Edited by Boeroer, 26 August 2018 - 01:50 AM.


#59
mant2si

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How once can simply ignore math and video evidence is beyond me. But then: voting for Trump and being anti-vaxxer also is.
So I have to accept that there are people out there who have a totally different perception of (virtual) reality than I have. ;)

 

However - we already went through this twice: with the "rogue vs. druid" and "rogue vs. ranger" debates in the PoE forums long time ago. Where you wouldn't accept that a rogue does not  "vastly out-dps" a druid or ranger - despite detailed explanations from mutiple forum members that were based on math, in game data and common sense. So I guess also in this case  further arguing is futile. The points were made, people can reread it and decide who backed their claims better.

 

I (and others here) don't think the Red Hand deserves a nerf besides the obvious bugfixes that messes up its dmg bonus and its Knockback. You think it's the best weapon in the game (accompanied by the inevitable hyperbolic adverbs) and therefore needs a nerf. Let's just leave it there...

Math, heartless you bitch :D I missed debates around Red Hand, but I didn't find anything special about this weapon except cool 40% DM bonus for Unbending and BDD builds. Even single handed ranger / x with Scordeo's Trophy will overcome Red Hand DPS far away ;D



#60
Haplok

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Well, it is really cool for single target damage for classes without Full Attack signature moves (like Cipher). I agree its not broken though.







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