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As we all know, the resting system is terrible to the point that it ruins the game mechanics like empower or wound system. I would like to see it reworked to work as following:

 

- when leaving ship you can take only so much food with you that will be enough for 2-3 rests

 

- during exploration you can collect resources like food and water to refill your "temporary" stash similiary to camping resources in POE1

 

- all excess resources that you collect "on foot" will be transfered to ship

 

- possibly introduce weight or some other limits to give a choice to either take alot of weak supplies like water that give little resting bonuses or less amount of strong supplies that give big bonuses. You could either have around 2 rests with good bonuses or 4-5 rests with weak bonuses

 

 

Thoughts?

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The resting system isn't terrible - it just doesn't pretend this time around that there is any long term resource management. 

The issue with the system you are proposing is, that it doesn't really add anything. Do you find yourself resting too much? I barely rest outside inns. That a possible issue within itself, but the system is designed that if you play well, you don't have to rest. To be honest, rather than your system I would return to "camp supply" system - it clearer and easier to manage. The reason Obsidian departed from that idea, is that it didn't add anything beyond wasting time - you play as intended (aka. more or less amount of rests devs predicted) you don't need to go back to town, you play poorly (aka. use too much resources, take too much damage) you just need to go back to town to get some supplies (or food in your system). All it adds is that if you are playing poorly you waste more time for travelling. 

 

For a meaningful (actual game system) resource management we would need to redesign structure of the game - ability to run out of supplies and feel consequnces of it (having to reload autosave and try again sounds like a horrible idea). There is certainly appeal to that, but I don't think that story focused RPG is a good place to experiment with that - you want your companions to be essencially immortal and you don't won't to be stuck or reload distant save and damage flow of the narrative. 

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I don't think it "ruins" anything, it's just completely pointless (as is the injury system). It doesn't even take time to do so it just ends up feeling like some time-wasting routine I have to carry out every couple of minutes without even thinking about it. If they aren't going to completely overhaul the system (personally I'd like them to make eating quality food essential to winning fights), I'd honestly prefer them to ditch it entirely. It's just a minute distraction that doesn't add anything to the game.

 

Empowers on the other hand... those things need to go as far as I'm concerned. They're the only mechanic which actively harms the gameplay (because it systematically removes the punishment for wasting your resources when the fight starts), and on higher difficulties it encourages some really tedious playstyles (use all of your empowers every fight then rest with Hardtack once you run out). I know I can just ignore it, but it's a rather big part of the UI so it's a constant temptation. Maybe one of the God Challenges can disable them...

Edited by Novem
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I agree its pointless and I think you may all be right that it cant be fixed. It requires total overhaul. All injury does is it prevents some strategies/tactics that involves someone dying like paladin + cipher combo (immolation + pain link then resurrect and repeat).

Edited by nemesis205bw
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Well, I kind of like the rest mechanics and the different kinds of food, so resting isn't all bad, it just makes the game a bit easier than perhaps it should be. You could certainly limit the resting and therefore empowerment as well, two features that many complain make the game too easy.

 

My idea was to limit access to your infinite party chest. If you limited the party chest to be accessible only at the ship (and possibly within cities) and forced you to bring along food for resting (with reasonable stack sizes), and added injuries when resting without food, you would have a fairly effective limit to the amount of resting you could do. I think these would be realistic changes, enhancing role-play immersion as well. 

 

Sure you could return to your ship, and you would perhaps have to select loot with more care, but returning all the time instead of using better tactics would undeniably be more difficult and tedious, as well as immersive. Now I recognise that this sort of feature would not be liked by the nerf police who complains whenever they get disadvantaged, but perhaps adding changes to party chest accessibility and resting mechanics could be a challenge feature?

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I think what is needed is another OPTIONAL difficulty setting where limited resting, dehydration and hunger are a thing. And if you don't treat them wounds quickly, it gets worse. Also, some injuries should leave the character in a state of recovery, such as a wrenched shoulder, which, even if treated and taken care of, will quickly bring complications again if somebody goes on swinging a sword.

 

Just two cents.  

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If you start adding a finite resource (eg food) for resting, then you run into the same problem as in PoE1: the stash. When you give the player what is basically a bottomless, portable bag of holding capable of storing infinite sets of plate mail from the start, it's hard to justify capping them at X bowls of mariner's porridge for resting.

 

I actually wish they had done away with the stash in Deadfire, or at least made it only accessible while on the ship. It had a purpose in PoE1 to prevent players from having to run back to shops/the stronghold all the time, but now that your stronghold is also your primary means of transportation it really isn't necessary. A ship-based stash would've also helped them stagger the economy better as players would have to be more discerning about what loot to pick up rather than returning to port after every level 12+ quest with 50k worth of exceptional armor to sell.

 

The game could instead add an 18-hour rest cooldown or at least designate certain areas/circumstances where resting is not allowed. You can currently rest on the bridge at Ashen Maw, the Scourge-infested last level of the White Void, just about anywhere outside of combat on Splintered Reef, etc - even just denying rest in maps with active enemies would be enough to add some depth/strategy to the empower system, at least for the few larger dungeons. 

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If you start adding a finite resource (eg food) for resting, then you run into the same problem as in PoE1: the stash. When you give the player what is basically a bottomless, portable bag of holding capable of storing infinite sets of plate mail from the start, it's hard to justify capping them at X bowls of mariner's porridge for resting.

 

I actually wish they had done away with the stash in Deadfire, or at least made it only accessible while on the ship. It had a purpose in PoE1 to prevent players from having to run back to shops/the stronghold all the time, but now that your stronghold is also your primary means of transportation it really isn't necessary. A ship-based stash would've also helped them stagger the economy better as players would have to be more discerning about what loot to pick up rather than returning to port after every level 12+ quest with 50k worth of exceptional armor to sell.

 

The game could instead add an 18-hour rest cooldown or at least designate certain areas/circumstances where resting is not allowed. You can currently rest on the bridge at Ashen Maw, the Scourge-infested last level of the White Void, just about anywhere outside of combat on Splintered Reef, etc - even just denying rest in maps with active enemies would be enough to add some depth/strategy to the empower system, at least for the few larger dungeons. 

Oddly similar to what I wrote  :biggrin:

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Any solution needs to deal with the opposite problem too; the "no rest" tactic, which means a party can permanently run around with all the immoral joys of Vailia (Luminous Bathhouse and Luminous Adra Potion buffs), a food buff of choice whose scarcity is no issue since you only need to eat it once, all wardstones so you can run into any sigil zero ****s given, plus the Watcher gets +2 all attributes (Alchemic _______), +2 Religion and +50% healing done (Dawnstar Blessing), +2 Resolve and +10 Accuracy (Nature's Resolve), and an inn/courtesan bonus of choice. Oh and, some people managed to stack food buffs on top of each other.

 

To address both problems I would:

- Keep injuries

- Reinstitute fatigue

- Have no resting limitation, just more or less favorable forms of rest

- Banish "per rest" to Ondra's darkest depths

- Make the Hand Occult focus exclusively on causing "accidents" for people trying to explore said darkest depths

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Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip.
Waukeen's Berth: Make all your basic purchases at Queen's Berth.

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If you start adding a finite resource (eg food) for resting, then you run into the same problem as in PoE1: the stash. When you give the player what is basically a bottomless, portable bag of holding capable of storing infinite sets of plate mail from the start, it's hard to justify capping them at X bowls of mariner's porridge for resting.

 

I actually wish they had done away with the stash in Deadfire, or at least made it only accessible while on the ship. It had a purpose in PoE1 to prevent players from having to run back to shops/the stronghold all the time, but now that your stronghold is also your primary means of transportation it really isn't necessary. A ship-based stash would've also helped them stagger the economy better as players would have to be more discerning about what loot to pick up rather than returning to port after every level 12+ quest with 50k worth of exceptional armor to sell.

 

The game could instead add an 18-hour rest cooldown or at least designate certain areas/circumstances where resting is not allowed. You can currently rest on the bridge at Ashen Maw, the Scourge-infested last level of the White Void, just about anywhere outside of combat on Splintered Reef, etc - even just denying rest in maps with active enemies would be enough to add some depth/strategy to the empower system, at least for the few larger dungeons. 

Oddly similar to what I wrote  :biggrin:

 

 

Ah, that's what I get for not reading through the whole thread first.

 

Great minds and all that :)

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Any solution needs to deal with the opposite problem too; the "no rest" tactic, which means a party can permanently run around with all the immoral joys of Vailia (Luminous Bathhouse and Luminous Adra Potion buffs), a food buff of choice whose scarcity is no issue since you only need to eat it once, all wardstones so you can run into any sigil zero ****s given, plus the Watcher gets +2 all attributes (Alchemic _______), +2 Religion and +50% healing done (Dawnstar Blessing), +2 Resolve and +10 Accuracy (Nature's Resolve), and an inn/courtesan bonus of choice. Oh and, some people managed to stack food buffs on top of each other.

 

To address both problems I would:

- Keep injuries

- Reinstitute fatigue

- Have no resting limitation, just more or less favorable forms of rest

- Banish "per rest" to Ondra's darkest depths

- Make the Hand Occult focus exclusively on causing "accidents" for people trying to explore said darkest depths

Sure, why not just have a fatigue injury? Run it on a timer so you have to rest or die eventually. Integrates well with my previous idea, I think. The combination would essentially force you to rest and eat, you know like in real life, and in much the same way you would die if you don't and didn't.

 

EDIT: If you wanted to be extra mean you could scale timers and food stack sizes with difficulty level.

Edited by Baldiedash
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I'm not a fan of your idea because it's a return to PoE1 where you have limited access to resting except you don't really, unless you're in the final dungeon. You can technically always double back to your favorite inn unless you can't return the way you came or there's actual urgency.

 

I think what I suggested was actually the BG/IWD rest system except with resting bonuses being possible :p

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Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip.
Waukeen's Berth: Make all your basic purchases at Queen's Berth.

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If you start adding a finite resource (eg food) for resting, then you run into the same problem as in PoE1: the stash. When you give the player what is basically a bottomless, portable bag of holding capable of storing infinite sets of plate mail from the start, it's hard to justify capping them at X bowls of mariner's porridge for resting.

 

I actually wish they had done away with the stash in Deadfire, or at least made it only accessible while on the ship. It had a purpose in PoE1 to prevent players from having to run back to shops/the stronghold all the time, but now that your stronghold is also your primary means of transportation it really isn't necessary. A ship-based stash would've also helped them stagger the economy better as players would have to be more discerning about what loot to pick up rather than returning to port after every level 12+ quest with 50k worth of exceptional armor to sell.

 

The game could instead add an 18-hour rest cooldown or at least designate certain areas/circumstances where resting is not allowed. You can currently rest on the bridge at Ashen Maw, the Scourge-infested last level of the White Void, just about anywhere outside of combat on Splintered Reef, etc - even just denying rest in maps with active enemies would be enough to add some depth/strategy to the empower system, at least for the few larger dungeons. 

Oddly similar to what I wrote  :biggrin:

 

 

Ah, that's what I get for not reading through the whole thread first.

 

Great minds and all that :)

 

No biggie.

 

And I was just about to write that  :biggrin:

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I'm not a fan of your idea because it's a return to PoE1 where you have limited access to resting except you don't really, unless you're in the final dungeon. You can technically always double back to your favorite inn unless you can't return the way you came or there's actual urgency.

 

I think what I suggested was actually the BG/IWD rest system except with resting bonuses being possible :p

Yeah, I know that's why I wrote that it would be tedious if nothing else, but I guess you could have dungeon re-spawn and diminishing xp rewards. If you wanted to be real nasty you could re-spawn more low-level minions, just to annoy players. Like a call-to-arms penalty for going back and forth your ship - you cowardly bastard!  :yes:

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I'm not a fan of your idea because it's a return to PoE1 where you have limited access to resting except you don't really, unless you're in the final dungeon. You can technically always double back to your favorite inn unless you can't return the way you came or there's actual urgency.

 

I think what I suggested was actually the BG/IWD rest system except with resting bonuses being possible :p

Also you could just lose all your resting buffs when you travel by ship. Why they haven't implemented that already is slightly beyond me.

Edited by Baldiedash
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The fundemental problem with resting is thus.

 

Player 1: I want to be mechnically forced to manage my resources like AD&D made spellcasters do.

 

Player 2: I don't want to be mechnically forced to manage my resources like AD&D made spellcasters do.

 

There is never a point at which the twain will meet, so all you will ever get is a compromise or fracking off a significant fraction of your player base.

 

I personally thought PoE 1, with the camp and health/endurance, was an excellent compromise and I found it a shame they didnt keep it,

 

But, basically, at the end of the day it boils down to this: the ONLY way to can make resting mean anything other than self-imposed restriction or merely adding tedium to take the choice of out completely of of the player's hands, either by having no resting at all or only allow it at explicitly fixed points (basically bringing game levels back). Otherwise, any amount of restrictions you put on will be circumnavigated by tedious backtracking which just annoys people, (Anything which relies on "increase player tedium as a punishment" is a Bad Thing.)

 

Heck, you can make a reasonable argument that introducing all the inn-based resting buffs is exactly the same problem - it encourages people to go back to the inn to rest for the Neat Buffs, regardless of how much wasted time there is clicking the route back.

 

 

 

 

Even AD&D never really got it work (or any of D&D's later incarnations) - because, ultimately, it is a self-imposed restriction on the players. If they want/need to rest, they will, and all you as DM can do to stop them is basically send monsters at them to kill them when they rest (when they're at, likely, their weakest), meaning they will want to rest more and so on, until you either have to simply end the game with a total party kill (which is basically you as the DM taking your ball and going home with it because the players won't do exactly what you want them to) or you just let the 15-minute adventuring day Be A Thing and prepare accordingly. And there are, I suspect, far fewer players and DMs who want to be going through the hassle of generating new parties and new games every other session because someone is insistent on trying to enforce a resting mechanic. It is, as they say, not a good hill to be dying on in a tabletop game.

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The fundemental problem with resting is thus.

 

Player 1: I want to be mechnically forced to manage my resources like AD&D made spellcasters do.

 

Player 2: I don't want to be mechnically forced to manage my resources like AD&D made spellcasters do.

 

 

I cant remember where I read it, or if Ive made it up in my head, but doesn't Obsidian have access to the PoE telemetry? Iirc, the Resting and Health / Endurance changes came about because they noticed players were manipulating them, not because they were working awesome and Obs wanted to throw a wrench into the game.

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I overall liked the changes they made, especially as someone that doesn't like the rest to regenerate spells thing. I will say it feels slightly more shallow or something, somehow.

 

I do really like the idea of *rewarding* players for not resting while still applying things like fatigue, injuries, and a total health bar to create the pressure to rest. I thought it was cool how battles would slowly wear your team down, because it seemed more believable.

 

But I think bringing back the limit or anything requiring tedious travel is a really bad idea. They took it out specifically because fans complained about the tedium.

Edited by Tick
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I cant remember where I read it, or if Ive made it up in my head, but doesn't Obsidian have access to the PoE telemetry? Iirc, the Resting and Health / Endurance changes came about because they noticed players were manipulating them, not because they were working awesome and Obs wanted to throw a wrench into the game.

 

Fair point, I guess, but shouldn't the Deadfire telemetry tell a tale of innumerable hordes of immortal insomniacs by now? Proposing a change to resting is more a suggestion so that breaking the game by using an inherent feature would be more difficult. No wrenches need to be thrown, nor is there really a suggestion that any have been, but some kind of tool to tighten the games mechanics could be used to great effect.

 

Also, if tedium is the concern then add proposed changes to resting, or anyones Obsidian actually would like, as a challenge feature, a triple crown merit badge is not won by people who have a problem with tedium. Fallout: New Vegas, had a hardcore feature that insure more tedium and micromanagement by messing with the food and resting, I always played with that on.

 

Besides removing resting buffs when boarding your ship just seems sensible. A minor change that would be quite easy to implement. I think, even though I'm not a programmer.

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I think theres no need for a resting in exteriors mechanic...but getting injuries in your group should force you return to the inn to heal them. Getting knocked out in battle should be treated as a big deal, so you are forced to use your escape mechanisms like invisibility, escape and that priest that you cant get below 1hp.

Empower should be per encounter just like every spell, theres no need for having 2, 3 or 4 empowers availables. A button that you can use once per battle to empower a single spell or get more resources. 
 

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No thanks. Your idea only makes the game slightly more tedious and frustrating. To each their own I guess, but I do not find resource management mini games fun.

 

Sounds like you are arbitrarily adding resources to manage just for shts and giggles.

 

I like my rpgs to have fun combat and character development. Poe 2 has done a wonderful job at both. Your idea doesn't bring anything positive to either.

 

Poe2 has fun battles that are challenging yet possible. All the resource management is per battle. I have options each battle. I can use my skills and execute my strategy each battle. All my party members have their role and ability to fulfill it each battle. This is fun. Sorry. I love what they've done.

 

Managing my empowers and magic missles over the course of a dungeon is not fun. If the entire game is built around it then sure. Poe2 is not a scavenging survival type game where you use whatever you have on hand.

 

wounds are different story. I somewhat agree that wounds are pointless since you can rest with food anytime you acquire one. However, id much rather they lean on the side of useless and carry on rather than stop everything and return. Until a better solution can be found.

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