A question about Pallegina in Deadfire (spoilers)

[lmao_zedong]

I started Deadfire with a history where Pallegina did not broker a trade deal with the Eir Glanfathans and was consequently exiled by her country.

But when I recruited her in Queen's Berth, she seems to harbor no resentment at all towards the Valian Republics and is all too happy to work for them again. This is despite her detailing exactly how rough her life had been the past few years since her exile.

I've yet to reach Ukaizo, so I'm wondering if there's something I've missed or if she's really so nonplussed by how badly she was treated by her country. I don't know if this is an oversight, or if it was meant to show how unconditionally loyal she is.

What do you all think?

 

 

ThoT

[Silent Winter]

Honestly? I think they figured it would've been too much work to write twice the dialogue for her.

In-game, I figure she was treated badly but she still loves her country (which is part of why she disobeyed the ducs - she figured it was better for VR to not screw over the Dyrwood and maintain good relations - she figured they'd understand...they didn't).  She still believes in the VR and wants them to succeed and she'll happily go along with their plans.

[lmao_zedong]

I posted a similar topic on the PoE subreddit and someone posted this:

 

"They did the opposite of what you would think, she only holds reservations about Vallia, if she followed her orders."

 

It sounds like she comes to regrets her decision regardless of her choice. I hope this was intentional, but I'm not sure why it's not made clearer through dialogue (or maybe I've yet to come across it).

[Achilles]

Josh has addressed this before. Pallegina is in an abusive relationship with the Republics. They can do whatever they want to her and she'll blame herself for upsetting them.

[Tick]

Achilles - I didn't know about that! Is there a quote or something somewhere?

 

---

 

I suspect it conveniently works out as slightly less work, but they *did * put in different content based on what you did. At least in the beginning. And it doesn't surprise me even slightly that Pallegina remains loyal to the Republics. I'm sure if there would have been a notable difference based on her previous paths, they would have written that in.

[Achilles]

Achilles - I didn't know about that! Is there a quote or something somewhere?

 

---

 

I suspect it conveniently works out as slightly less work, but they *did * put in different content based on what you did. At least in the beginning. And it doesn't surprise me even slightly that Pallegina remains loyal to the Republics. I'm sure if there would have been a notable difference based on her previous paths, they would have written that in.

I'm sure there is, but between his twitter feed, tumblr account, SA posts, interviews, dev Q&As etc, there's no way I'm going to find the "salty' version of his comment again.

 

Here's a very cleaned up version: "Pallegina is dedicated to the Vailian Republics as a whole, a spirit that transcends individual ducs and city-states, but which represents (in her view) the best and greatest promise of the world's cultures."

 

https://www.mmorpg.com/interviews/pillars-of-eternity-2-the-lore-with-josh-sawyer-1000011536

[XEternalXDreamsX]

How does she react if she followed orders and Dyrwood wasn't strengthened? Anything memorable?

[Tick]

How does she react if she followed orders and Dyrwood wasn't strengthened? Anything memorable?

She has three possible variations of a conversation when you ask how she's been doing. I think.

 

In the case you're referring to, she got a huge reward /rewards from it and was promoted /assigned to a good duc. That's not exactly what she said but I'm going off memory. *But* it was definitely at the expense of the Dyrwood.

 

What's interesting is if she followed orders and the Dyrwood was strengthened. I think she still was rewarded but it resulted in an all out war that sounds pretty ****ed up.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Tick

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Pallegina is established as a nationalistic zealot. In Deadfire that quality is possibly more accentuated than anything else in her character. After all, when you first meet her in Deadfire she is kind of detached from the Watcher, despite their previous ordeals. Also, bear in mind that in PoE she doesn't broker the deal for the Republics because she is afraid that could spell future conflict for her nation.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

 

How does she react if she followed orders and Dyrwood wasn't strengthened? Anything memorable?

She has three possible variations of a conversation when you ask how she's been doing. I think.

 

In the case you're referring to, she got a huge reward /rewards from it and was promoted /assigned to a good duc. That's not exactly what she said but I'm going off memory. *But* it was definitely at the expense of the Dyrwood.

 

What's interesting is if she followed orders and the Dyrwood was strengthened. I think she still was rewarded but it resulted in an all out war that sounds pretty ****ed up.

It seems like someone "loses" no matter the choice. I heard the Watcher returns to the Dyrwood following the ending slides. Maybe it is best to save it if she acts the same either way aside from opening conversations.

[Tick]

 

 

How does she react if she followed orders and Dyrwood wasn't strengthened? Anything memorable?

She has three possible variations of a conversation when you ask how she's been doing. I think.

 

In the case you're referring to, she got a huge reward /rewards from it and was promoted /assigned to a good duc. That's not exactly what she said but I'm going off memory. *But* it was definitely at the expense of the Dyrwood.

 

What's interesting is if she followed orders and the Dyrwood was strengthened. I think she still was rewarded but it resulted in an all out war that sounds pretty ****ed up.

It seems like someone "loses" no matter the choice. I heard the Watcher returns to the Dyrwood following the ending slides. Maybe it is best to save it if she acts the same either way aside from opening conversations.

Again going off memory, but if she disobeys orders and the Dyrwood is strengthened, she's either essentially spared or rewarded. I can't remember exactly.

 

But yeah, making sure Pallegina is okay without doing it at the expense of others is hard. . Which is part of what makes her interesting to me. The player has to decide if they care more about a companions well being or a huge number of faceless people. It's also atypical for a companion quest to be so counterintuitive.

 

Edit : but yes, the large majority or all of her dialogue related to Deadfire - not her past (her initial conversations) - are the same I think.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Tick

[Vitalis]

 

 

 

How does she react if she followed orders and Dyrwood wasn't strengthened? Anything memorable?

She has three possible variations of a conversation when you ask how she's been doing. I think.

 

In the case you're referring to, she got a huge reward /rewards from it and was promoted /assigned to a good duc. That's not exactly what she said but I'm going off memory. *But* it was definitely at the expense of the Dyrwood.

 

What's interesting is if she followed orders and the Dyrwood was strengthened. I think she still was rewarded but it resulted in an all out war that sounds pretty ****ed up.

It seems like someone "loses" no matter the choice. I heard the Watcher returns to the Dyrwood following the ending slides. Maybe it is best to save it if she acts the same either way aside from opening conversations.

Again going off memory, but if she disobeys orders and the Dyrwood is strengthened, she's either essentially spared or rewarded. I can't remember exactly.

 

But yeah, making sure Pallegina is okay without doing it at the expense of others is hard. . Which is part of what makes her interesting to me. The player has to decide if they care more about a companions well being or a huge number of faceless people. It's also atypical for a companion quest to be so counterintuitive.

 

Edit : but yes, the large majority or all of her dialogue related to Deadfire - not her past (her initial conversations) - are the same I think.

If she made a new deal with the Dyrwoodn strenghtened she is banished from her order, but when trade finally resumes the Republic realizes that the new deal was far better than the original deal so she's reinstated.

[Tick]

Thank you! I appreciate the clarification. :D

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Hey, Tick. What's the best way in your opinion to have Pallegina not really disgraced? Hmm..if you don't care about the Dyrwood, maybe follow her orders?

[Tick]

Hey, Tick. What's the best way in your opinion to have Pallegina not really disgraced? Hmm..if you don't care about the Dyrwood, maybe follow her orders?

If you don't care about the Dyrwood, then have her follow orders. I'd recommend *not* pledging to Galawain or strengthening the Dyrwood with Hollowborn souls in that case (because that'll result in war), but Pallegina herself will be fine no matter what you do I think (if she follows orders).

 

There's two ways though:

 

A) Have her *disobey * orders, then pledge to Galawain, then strengthen the Dyrwood with the Hollowborn souls.

 

B) Have her follow orders and do anything *but * strengthen the Dyrwood with Hollowborn souls (don't pledge to Galawain). (for ideal results)

 

 

The consequences for each are -

A:

*She gets exiled, but then reinstated when they realize she made the right decision (so she's fine)

*Dyrwood and the Valian Republics have good trade relations /Dyrwood isn't screwed over.

*The Hollowborn children will be Hollowborn for the rest of their existence. Also, as I understood it, their souls are basically *fed* to the rest of the Dyrwood souls. Which is the most permanent death you can get in the PoE universe.

 

B)

*Pallegina is greatly rewarded and well off.

*The Dyrwood gets screwed over but can't do anything about it.

*What happens to the Hollowborn souls depends on whatever other choice you make.

 

 

Personally, I don't feel comfortable strengthening souls with other souls (with my understanding of what's happening), especially when they have no choice in the matter. I also really don't want to hurt the people of Dyrwood. But you can't have both without kind of ruining Pallegina's life.

[Zap Gun For Hire]

Pallengina's reasoning become a lot clearer during her personal quest regarding Giacolo.   The Watcher can also try to probe her seeing just how far she would take her pro-Vailian Republic stances and see how her personal desires versus her homeland's actions really shake out.

 

There's also a few hints of this if she is around during either the slaver questine or the Poko Kohara questline.

 

IMO, it's too simplistic to say Pallengina is "My Country, Right or Wrong".  Instead she is of the opinion that she wants to build something that not only is greater than herself, but is worthy of being great.  Something that can be truly great in the fullness of time.

 

She's not blind to the fact that her country is capable of some tremendously ****ty things. But she also thinks that she and folks of similar mindset can make the Vailian Republics something worthy of being supported, if they are good enough examples.

 

As to why, this is a person who has/had tremendous self-loathing issues.  So many that her issues have issues.  But beyond that she's also sublimated her inability to have children into a desire to see that the entirety of the Republics will be her children.  So she has a tremendous parental/motherly instinct toward the Republics as a whole.  Her children might disappoint her.  Greatly even.  But it's damned hard for her to ever not love her children and not to try to mold them into the best possible children they can be.

 

On the flip side, this doesn't mean her choices in PoE I don't have further consequences in Deadfire.  I haven't seen it personally, but if she was temporarily exiled in PoE I's ending, I understand she is a little bit more skeptical of the Watcher taking a rebel-against-the-Republics stance as she's already been burned  a bit once by this, even if things turned out okay in the end.

 

So it's not that she's a zealot.  It's that she truly thinks the Republics can be a Force For Good, even if they have to be pushed in the right direction.  And, to be fair, she has pretty solid reasons for thinking that when her personal history is looked at.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Zap Gun For Hire

[lmao_zedong]

Damn, I was under the impression that she saw a greater good outside of the Republics in PoE 1 when she changed the contract. My memory of what it took to convince her is hazy, though. 

 

If she changed the contract to benefit the VR, shouldn't she eventually be unbanished when the Dyrwood economy recovers? Did they just forget to unbanish her or does Dyrwood never recover in Pallegina's lifetime if you didn't side with Galawain?

 

Either way, I'm glad to see that I underestimated the depth of her character.

Edited August 2, 2018 by lmao_zedong

[lmao_zedong]

Pallengina's reasoning become a lot clearer during her personal quest regarding Giacolo.   The Watcher can also try to probe her seeing just how far she would take her pro-Vailian Republic stances and see how her personal desires versus her homeland's actions really shake out.

 

There's also a few hints of this if she is around during either the slaver questine or the Poko Kohara questline.

 

IMO, it's too simplistic to say Pallengina is "My Country, Right or Wrong".  Instead she is of the opinion that she wants to build something that not only is greater than herself, but is worthy of being great.  Something that can be truly great in the fullness of time.

 

She's not blind to the fact that her country is capable of some tremendously ****ty things. But she also thinks that she and folks of similar mindset can make the Vailian Republics something worthy of being supported, if they are good enough examples.

 

As to why, this is a person who has/had tremendous self-loathing issues.  So many that her issues have issues.  But beyond that she's also sublimated her instability to have children into a desire to see that the entirety of the Republics will be her children.  So she has a tremendous parental/motherly instinct toward the Republics as a whole.  He children might disappoint her.  Greatly even.  But it's damned hard for her to ever not love her children and not to try to mold them into the best possible children they can be.

 

On the flip side, this doesn't mean her choices in PoE I don't have further consequences in Deadfire.  I haven't seen it personally, but if she was temporarily exiled in PoE I's ending, I understand she is a little bit more skeptical of the Watcher taking a rebel-against-the-Republics stance as she's already been burned  a bit once by this, even if things turned out okay in the end.

 

So it's not that she's a zealot.  It's that she truly thinks the Republics can be a Force For Good, even if they have to be pushed in the right direction.  And, to be fair, she has pretty solid reasons for thinking that when her personal history is looked at.

Whoops, I was writing my previous post when yours was submitted. (Can't edit it either because it's not approved yet). That's really damn interesting, and leaves me more than a little bit disappointed that she doesn't have a romance with a companion or protagonist.

 

I hope we see more of her somehow, she's really one of my favorite characters now.

[Tick]

Pallengina's reasoning become a lot clearer during her personal quest regarding Giacolo.   The Watcher can also try to probe her seeing just how far she would take her pro-Vailian Republic stances and see how her personal desires versus her homeland's actions really shake out.

 

There's also a few hints of this if she is around during either the slaver questine or the Poko Kohara questline.

 

IMO, it's too simplistic to say Pallengina is "My Country, Right or Wrong".  Instead she is of the opinion that she wants to build something that not only is greater than herself, but is worthy of being great.  Something that can be truly great in the fullness of time.

[...]

 

I truncated just because my own post should be short, but that was really really well put.  I don't entirely agree about the children angle, but everything else I think is pretty spot on.  I actually feel pretty much the same way - my apologies if I made it sound like Pallegina is completely blind.  My experience with her has been that she notices various issues, but those issues are always outweighed by her dedication to her country and what she thinks it can do for the world.  I also suspect that she doesn't care at all what the Republics do to her, on an ethical standpoint, from what I've seen.  She assumes full responsibility for whatever happened.

 

As I mentioned before, she definitely has conversations about doubts in what you believe in - either directly or indirectly about the Vailian Republics.  I never had her around for the slaver or Poko Kohara stuff, so I didn't know about that.  I'd also love to see her show some reticence about a Watcher repeating the behavior that got her in trouble - she was fine in my game because of a premade save, so I never got to see anything else.

[Tick]

Whoops, I was writing my previous post when yours was submitted. (Can't edit it either because it's not approved yet). That's really damn interesting, and leaves me more than a little bit disappointed that she doesn't have a romance with a companion or protagonist.

 

 

 

I hope we see more of her somehow, she's really one of my favorite characters now.

 

 

(My apologies, this might come off as me being contrary)

 

I'd love to see more Pallegina too!  On the romance angle, I actually liked the way she was written in regards to romance (from what I saw).  Anytime you pull her into a situation where she is involved in or approximate to a romantic situation, she is extremely uncomfortable - in a way that I find very appropriate for her character and personally relatable.  Pallegina very much comes off as this person that has a stoic exterior but is very passionate and generous beneath that, and also as someone that probably isn't used to intimacy (at least straightforwardly).  

[Zap Gun For Hire]

Damn, I was under the impression that she saw a greater good outside of the Republics in PoE 1 when she changed the contract. My memory of what it took to convince her is hazy, though. 

 

If she changed the contract to benefit the VR, shouldn't she eventually be unbanished when the Dyrwood economy recovers? Did they just forget to unbanish her or does Dyrwood never recover in Pallegina's lifetime if you didn't side with Galawain?

 

Either way, I'm glad to see that I underestimated the depth of her character.

I like this added depth to her character but 

 

She wants to change the contract because, IIRC, she think the Vailians are being short sighted when it comes to the Dyrwood and wants a win-win situation.  That and she honestly thinks that the Vailians can be a force for good for Eora, and so she tries to curtail their more mercantile double dealing tendencies.

 

As for the Dyrwood situation there are three outcomes for Pallengina:

 

Outcome One: Don't change the contract and she is toasted and celebrated in the Republics no matter what else happens.

Outcome Two: Change the contract and the Dyrwood is strengthened, she will be exiled but in the fullness of time she'll be brought back as the Vailians will see that she was right after all.

Outcome Three: Change the contract and anything else happens, she will be exiled and not be back in the good graces of the Republics.

 

It's basically:

 

You did what we wanted; we love you.

You didn't do what we wanted but turned out to be right; we respect you.

You didn't do what we wanted and turned out to be wrong; we don't like you at all.

 

Haven't really played much at all with Option Three when it comes to Pallengina, but I don't think it changes her attitude to the Republics all that much.  From looking at various dialogues in the data files it appears that if anything she's more upset with the Watcher than anything else.  Call it transference if one must (she's angry that the situation she wanted didn't turn out like she expected so she takes it out on the person who helped convince her to take the path she wanted).

 

===

 

IMO, a big reason why she is so pro-Republic is that the Republics are very pro-Animancy.  Deadfire will show just why Pally is so enamored with Animancy as an art.  To the point where, again IMO, she has a much bigger blind spot in regards to Animancy and its failings than the Republics.

 

And again, this makes sense.  She knows all to well what the Republics are capable of.  But since Animancy to quote her own words "made her life worth living" it's a much harder thing to get her to see that maaaaaaaaaybe there are a few nutjobs in the field of Animancy.

[Zap Gun For Hire]

 

Pallengina's reasoning become a lot clearer during her personal quest regarding Giacolo.   The Watcher can also try to probe her seeing just how far she would take her pro-Vailian Republic stances and see how her personal desires versus her homeland's actions really shake out.

 

There's also a few hints of this if she is around during either the slaver questine or the Poko Kohara questline.

 

IMO, it's too simplistic to say Pallengina is "My Country, Right or Wrong".  Instead she is of the opinion that she wants to build something that not only is greater than herself, but is worthy of being great.  Something that can be truly great in the fullness of time.

[...]

 

I truncated just because my own post should be short, but that was really really well put.  I don't entirely agree about the children angle, but everything else I think is pretty spot on.

 

 

Have you seen the banter between Eder and Pallengina when it comes to children?  That was that I was thinking of.

 

It goes  like this:

 

Eder:  "Hey Pallegina, I know your kind, you can't have children. But... would you have wanted them?"

Palengina:  "Ac. It is because I cannot give my country children that I give them so much of the life I have."

 

That banter really stayed with me when I saw it.  Maybe seeing the Republics as her children is a bit overstated.  On the other hand, it DOES explain an fair amount, I think.

[Tick]

I didn't encounter that before! I can see your point, then! 

 

I can also see it as Pallegina feeling she has failed to contribute to her country in the way "she's supposed to" and trying to compensate for that.  I say this in part because (on a recent replay of PoE1), Pallegina mentions that for most women that cannot bear children in the Vailian Republics, the "sun has set on their futures."  Or something along those lines.  When so much of your value and use in your society is based on something that you can't do, and you already have the kind of self-loathing I think Pallegina does, I could imagine how she might feel she has to make up for it.

 

I do have a slight bias against the childless motherly woman trope though, so that for sure impacts how I think on this.

[Zap Gun For Hire]

I didn't encounter that before! I can see your point, then! 

 

I can also see it as Pallegina feeling she has failed to contribute to her country in the way "she's supposed to" and trying to compensate for that.  I say this in part because (on a recent replay of PoE1), Pallegina mentions that for most women that cannot bear children in the Vailian Republics, the "sun has set on their futures."  Or something along those lines.  When so much of your value and use in your society is based on something that you can't do, and you already have the kind of self-loathing I think Pallegina does, I could imagine how she might feel she has to make up for it.

 

I do have a slight bias against the childless motherly woman trope though, so that for sure impacts how I think on this.

 

Yeah, I used the term sublimation for a reason. It's not exactly a healthy way for Pallengina to deal with that facet of her self-loathing, but it beats a fair few of the alternatives.

 

And, yes, the childless motherly woman trope can be a bit overplayed.  Thankfully I think the needle is fairly well threaded when it come to Pallengina, especially since one can never be quite sure if she is just a Patriot or a Blind Zealot unless one really gets to know her.

 

I was also thinking of another comment she made about where she wants the Republics to be in a few generations.  I don't think I'll be able to find it immediately to quote it exactly, but it sure sounded similar to how someone would talk about how they want their children and grand children to be great and how someone would take personal pride in shaping them into being good people.  So if she can steer the Republics into being the best they can be, she would take great personal satisfaction in being a part of that process, even if history had all but forgotten her name.

 

But I admit I might be stretching the point here a bit.

[lmao_zedong]

I think I found it! Just had this conversation between Aloth and Pallegina:

 

A: Nothing seems to shake your faith in the Republics, Pallegina.

P: Some people believe in gods. I believe in the Republics. They will endure long after I am gone.

A: But do you ever wonder what they will become?

P: Of course, but my place is to protect the Republics for those who will come in the future.

 

I understand her devotion to the Republics better, but in her situation it sounds like blind faith (which I guess is appropriate for paladins).

 

I do wonder what about her upbringing made her so fond of the VR. She's only mentioned some negative things so far, like how she was treated like a pet in her academy due to her godlike status (and in the same conversation, she says that those changes made her want to die).

 

It's a shame that I can't bring myself to like the Republics... As far as I'm aware, they're essentially the East Indian Company in the 1800s.