Dual-wielding, full attacks, and recovery

[MaxQuest]

Well, The Red Hand only procs special abilities once. For me it actually seems to stop once the first shot is completed while using Stunning strike (need to issue attack command again to get the shot from the second "barrel").

Frostseeker's aoe is a separate attack also, I think.

That's why I added "depending on implementation") With PoE we never know for sure how some of the stuff works until we test it ^^

[Boeroer]

Yes, Red Hand only skips reload on every second shot - it's not like Twinned Shot or something.
 

The reason Dual Wield are also way better than others is the fact that 90% of the martial art skills are full attacks.

That's hyperbole.
 
Full Attacks:

1. Flames of Devotion
2. Penetrating Strike
3. Crippling Strike
4. Blinding Strike
5. Wounding Shot
6. Finishing Blow
7. Strike the Bell
8. Withering Strike
9. Gambit
10. Vanishing Strike
11. Whirling Strikes
12. Barbaric Blow
13. Heart of Fury
14. Vengeful Defeat
15. Cleave (Cleaving Stance)
16. Stunning Blow
17. Flagellanth's Path
18. Shared Pain
19. Launching Kick
20. Whispers of the Wind

Primary Attacks:

1. Knock Down
2. Mule Kick
3. Torment's Reach
4. Sap
5. Concussive Shot
6. Twinned Shot
7. Clear Out
8. Power Strike
9. Sundering Blow
10. Force of Anguish
11. Skyward Kick
12. Taste of the Hunt

 

That's hardly 90%... and surely not a "fact". Why do so many people use that term for anything but actual facts nowadays?
But it's also more than 50% - so the basic direction of your statement is right.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Because we mostly only use full attack abilities, it gives people a feeling that 90% of martial abilities are full attack ones.

 

If you click cripple attack 9 times and sap times 1 times in average, it’s 90% against 10%. It’s not true in RAW, but from practical experience, it feels like to be so.

Edited August 1, 2018 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

If you’re a Fighter, Monk, or Brawler chances are you’re making way more Primary Attacks though.

[Boeroer]

I think it's undisputed that Full Attacks are a lot better with dw setups (and that there are a lot of them) and thus dw has an advantage over most other setups in general - which is not good. If you play a rogue/ranger/barb with a great sword/estoc etc. you feel a bit gimped and rightfully so.

 

I think that's what we all agree on - and that something has to be done.

 

Doesn't matter if it's actual 90% or 60% or "felt" 90% or whatever - so let's move on and focus our attention towards nudging Obsidian to do something about it (that isn't a nerf).

 

@OBSI: *nudge-nudge*

Edited August 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[mant2si]

Obsidian - `We read all your wishes, this make us thought a lot - 'how to improve 2H game-play' ... we took some ideas from forum, real life and D & D  games and make ... DW style suffer -15 ACC and -5 MIG penalty, good luck in your Deadfire adventures `

Edited August 1, 2018 by mant2si

[dunehunter]

Obsidian - `We read all your wishes, this make us thought a lot how to improve 2H game-play ... we took some ideas from forum, real life and D & D games and make ... DW style suffer -15 ACC and -5 MIG penalty, good luck in your Deadfire adventures `

Actually this is easier to implement

[gGeorg]

My solution would be some kind of penalty when dual wielding (less damage/accuracy/pen) which is what other games have done, including the IE series of games. This way you don't gimp one-handed style (which is probably the most underused atm). Something like 5-10% less base damage, 5-10 less accuracy, or 1-2 less pen. This also makes sense as you're having to coordinate two full sized weapons; of course you're not going to be as efficient. They could even make the penalties steeper, with talents to reduce them.

Offhand weapon is in your weak arm. So, dual-wielding penalty should focus there. And only there.

Also I would like to add a modal for dual-wield, "use the main hand only". So you focus/use just main hand with all the consequences.

 

"

two handed weapons should just get a max dmg roll with Full Attacks. I found that pretty interesting. Basically it's a base damage increase for Full Attacks with two handers and makes them very predictable (when it comes to dmg output). I liked that suggestion best so far. It would still not compete with dual wielding - but one could always add a short interrupt on crit or so."' I Like it.

Edited August 1, 2018 by gGeorg

[Veolfen]

Yes, Red Hand only skips reload on every second shot - it's not like Twinned Shot or something.

 

The reason Dual Wield are also way better than others is the fact that 90% of the martial art skills are full attacks.

That's hyperbole.

 

Full Attacks:

1. Flames of Devotion
2. Penetrating Strike
3. Crippling Strike
4. Blinding Strike
5. Wounding Shot
6. Finishing Blow
7. Strike the Bell
8. Withering Strike
9. Gambit
10. Vanishing Strike
11. Whirling Strikes
12. Barbaric Blow
13. Heart of Fury
14. Vengeful Defeat
15. Cleave (Cleaving Stance)
16. Stunning Blow
17. Flagellanth's Path
18. Shared Pain
19. Launching Kick
20. Whispers of the Wind

Primary Attacks:

1. Knock Down
2. Mule Kick
3. Torment's Reach
4. Sap
5. Concussive Shot
6. Twinned Shot
7. Clear Out
8. Power Strike
9. Sundering Blow
10. Force of Anguish
11. Skyward Kick
12. Taste of the Hunt

 

That's hardly 90%... and surely not a "fact". Why do so many people use that term for anything but actual facts nowadays?

But it's also more than 50% - so the basic direction of your statement is right.

 

20 vs 12, still much more full attacks than primaries, especially when the most useful ones are mainly in full attack category.

Also I was pointing out the fact we use way more full attacks then primaries like dunehunter said :

 

Because we mostly only use full attack abilities, it gives people a feeling that 90% of martial abilities are full attack ones.

 

If you click cripple attack 9 times and sap times 1 times in average, it’s 90% against 10%. It’s not true in RAW, but from practical experience, it feels like to be so.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Veolfen

[lameover]

1handed(without shield) must give +15%dmg and +10acc.

2handed must give +25%dmg

dual-wield must give -15acc and dmg scale with DEX  dual-wield talent must give +5acc than +15%action speed

*d&d mechanics*

Edited August 1, 2018 by lameover

[Purudaya]

I've generally been kind of anti-nerf on this, but just for the sake of argument - why not just get rid of full attacks? Two-weapon style would still have plenty of advantages/use cases (more attacks, faster application of damage bonuses and debilitating effects, dual enchantment synergies), but other styles would be much more competitive and the differences would no longer shoehorn certain classes (like rogues) into TWS. Seems easier than finding ways to make 1handed and 2handed compete with the very hard-to-beat current TWS implementation. 

[mosspit]

Plenty of suggestions here. But if the purpose is to balance full attacks and with the intention make it so with the easiest implementation, the lowest hanging fruit I can think of is just the lowering of Offhand Accuracy by x (10 will be a reasonable number for me).

 

After all, if memory serves me correctly, that's how BG2 and IWD2 did it. DW Full Attacks still get the full advantage of the Primary Hit, it is the Secondary Hit that seems to throw off the numbers here and lowering the Acc for the Offhand helps to bring the dmg (and effects) more inline with the status quo. Also it gives slightly more thought on which weapons should placed in the main hand and offhand.

 

I'm not a big fan of nerfs but if I had to choose between the lesser of 2 evils...

Edited August 1, 2018 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

I don't think that putting an accuracy malus on the offhand will balance things unless it's a huge malus - and that's just not a very pretty thing to do.

 

Doing max dmg roll (two hander) and enhanced crit damage (single one hander) is already pretty low hanging and easy enough to implement I think.

 

And it sets Primary and Full Attacks apart. If you solve the problem by nerfing DW Full Attacks then for two handers and single one hander those two forms of attack will still be the same. I mean if that's one's design goal then fine of course. It's just a little... boring?

[AndreaColombo]

^ Agreed.

[mosspit]

I don't think that putting an accuracy malus on the offhand will balance things unless it's a huge malus - and that's just not a very pretty thing to do.

 

Doing max dmg roll (two hander) and enhanced crit damage (single one hander) is already pretty low hanging and easy enough to implement I think.

 

And it sets Primary and Full Attacks apart. If you solve the problem by nerfing DW Full Attacks then for two handers and single one hander those two forms of attack will still be the same. I mean if that's one's design goal then fine of course. It's just a little... boring?

True, I don't deny it is gonna be ugly. But to me and at the risk of digressing, it is the nature of DW being too good and not only for Full Attacks. And Obs already done some not very pretty things at this point.

 

I don't see too much difference between the suggestions. It is mostly about shifting the reference point. But ultimately, it about toning down 1 of the styles vs buffing the other 2. Changing just that 1 style seems like the easiest.

Edited August 2, 2018 by mosspit

[AndreaColombo]

I’d still rather go for the max damage roll suggestion. It sounds interesting and promising.

[gkathellar]

I've generally been kind of anti-nerf on this, but just for the sake of argument - why not just get rid of full attacks? Two-weapon style would still have plenty of advantages/use cases (more attacks, faster application of damage bonuses and debilitating effects, dual enchantment synergies), but other styles would be much more competitive and the differences would no longer shoehorn certain classes (like rogues) into TWS. Seems easier than finding ways to make 1handed and 2handed compete with the very hard-to-beat current TWS implementation. 

 

... I must reluctantly suggest that doesn't sound half bad.

[jww]

I think major nerfs to full attacks (such as eliminating them) or dual-wielding at this point in the game's life would make a lot of people angry. Far angrier than regular nerfs. The time for that kind of change would really be in the initial game design, or at the latest, before the game is released publicly. I think the solutions presented to improve how two-hand and single-weapon styles work with full attacks would be much more reasonable, and some of them don't sound overly difficult to implement.

 

That said, I think there is a fundamental design issue with full attacks and dual-wielding that should be addressed during the design phase if there is another sequel. Perhaps only making full attacks available to certain specialized dual-wielding sub-classes and placing limits on weapon size for dual-wielding, and for everyone else, improving the primary attacks or lowering their cost. But I don't think that sort of change would be appropriate for a game that's already released.

[grasida]

Thinking it over, I think an accuracy nerf to dual wield (-7, say, off the top of my head) really does make the most sense. It’s the simplest, most straightforward solution and doesn’t make an already complicated, imposing game even harder to understand for people new to rpgs.

 

But there’s absolutely a contingent of posters that would scream bloody murder about a nerf like that.

Edited August 3, 2018 by grasida

[gkathellar]

I think major nerfs to full attacks (such as eliminating them) or dual-wielding at this point in the game's life would make a lot of people angry. Far angrier than regular nerfs.

 

Oh, for sure. People would throw fits. There'd be riots. Riots! (There would not be actual riots.) I think Obsidian knows that, and I doubt they'll make any grand structural changes for that reason among others - although nerfing individual full attack abilities seems like it could happen.

 

But from an armchair designer perspective, I think full attacks do need some kind of structural reexamining.

[Boeroer]

As stated above: in terms of dps all three styles are pretty balanced when it comes to auto-attacks and primary attacks.

 

It's only the Full Attacks that set them apart. So, giving DW an accuracy malus in general is not conductive. Only giving Full Attacks with DW an accuracy malus is kind of weird: why should I hit less often when doing a Full Attack than when doing auto-attacks?

 

I still think improving the Full Attacks ot two handers and single handed weapons is the way to go to a) prevent major butthurt with players and b) to balance Full Attacks a bit while not touching the ok balance of auto-attacks. It's ok if DW is a bit better with Full Attacks - like Primary Attacks are better (or more effective) with two handers - but at the moment the difference is just too big.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Boeroer

[grasida]

If dual wield had an accuracy penalty, it would be a little worse with normal attacks but a little better if you have strong access to full attacks. That’s not much different from how it was in a lot of cases in PoE 1. And it would prevent dual wielding from being superior to single weapon when you’re trying to be accurate, too. I think separate bonuses to different styles with full attacks could solve the problem without offending the feelings of people that don’t like numbers to go down, but it also adds a lot of complexity. I don’t know what the right answer is. I’m glad I’m not the person who has to make the call.

[gkathellar]

As a partial complete aside, I will be really pleased the day I see a game where dual wielding does not mean, "alternates between swinging one weapon and the other." That's not how it works, guys!

 

Combat realism in games is impossible, but it's just ... I'm offended by how ubiquitous the gameplay trope is, if nothing else.

[baldurs_gate_2]

As stated above: in terms of dps all three styles are pretty balanced when it comes to auto-attacks and primary attacks.

 

It's only the Full Attacks that set them apart. So, giving DW an accuracy malus in general is not conductive. Only giving Full Attacks with DW an accuracy malus is kind of weird: why should I hit less often when doing a Full Attack than when doing auto-attacks?

 

I still think improving the Full Attacks ot two handers and single handed weapons is the way to go to a) prevent major butthurt with players and b) to balance Full Attacks a bit while not touching the ok balance of auto-attacks. It's ok if DW is a bit better with Full Attacks - like Primary Attacks are better (or more effective) with two handers - but at the moment the difference is just too big.

This. Don't nerf the full attacks of DW, just buff the full attacks of one handed style and two handed style, that is just easy and everyone would be happy.

[draego]

Here is the 2.1 solution for now in beta:  

Full Attacks made while dual wielding will now receive a -35% penalty to the damage they deal.

 

The nerf gods have spoken

Edited August 30, 2018 by draego