Beta Patch 2.0 is live...and so far it looks more like a 1.5

[Purudaya]

 

D:OS 1 got an enhanced addition that completely shook up the balance of the game and D:OS 2 is slated to get the same. BG games were from an earlier time, before steam or GoG when frequent patching wasn't feasible. I didn't make it through dragon age origins and only tried it many years after it was released, so I don't know about that one.

 

DOS1 enhanced edition was released 1,5 years after the game itself. DOS2:EE is coming soon, so.. a year. Both are released as stand-alone games, not a forced update - sure, you get them for free, but they are a completey different game in your Steam library. While Pillars completely rebalanced its core game in the first effing patch! Saying that the difference is humongous would be an understatement.

 

 

Correct, and for the better. Making a dual-wielding Fighter/Monk and spamming charge/flagellant's path against groups of enemies for infinite Mob Stance/Swift Flurry procs was fun for like a day, but would you really have wanted that to remain in the final product? 

 

Thankfully, the class mechanics have been drastically improved since then, but there are still issues: one frequent complaint is that because one-handed and two-handed styles receive no benefit from full attacks (among other reasons), two-weapon style > everything else for most martial DPS builds. Wouldn't you want to see one-handed and two-handed receive a few more tweaks to be more attractive? If balance isn't important to you, how about difficulty - don't you want a game where the difficulty remains consistent and doesn't drop off just when your class abilities start to get interesting?

 

I haven't seen enough of your posts to know why you're so bitter about game balancing, but I don't think that players are 'entitled' for wanting the same mechanical refinement that was achieved for PoE1 or for expecting further PotD tuning as has been promised by the devs. Additional balance and difficulty changes ARE coming (sorry); I'd just like to see them sooner rather than later so I can get back to enjoying the game.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Purudaya

[AndreaColombo]

 Making a dual-wielding Fighter/Monk and spamming charge/flagellant's path against groups of enemies for infinite Mob Stance/Swift Flurry procs was fun for like a day, but would you really have wanted that to remain in the final product?

 

FWIW, I view the removial of the infinite recursive procs as a bugfix, rather than a rebalancing act.

[Purudaya]

 

 Making a dual-wielding Fighter/Monk and spamming charge/flagellant's path against groups of enemies for infinite Mob Stance/Swift Flurry procs was fun for like a day, but would you really have wanted that to remain in the final product?

 

FWIW, I view the removial of the infinite recursive procs as a bugfix, rather than a rebalancing act.

 

 

Fair enough, but making a full attack against every enemy in a path/every surrounding enemy were intended features and were a big part of what made those builds so ridiculous. Even without recursive procs, 1.0 mob stance and charge trivialized most other martial classes/abilities.

[Hassat Hunter]

I haven't seen enough of your posts to know why you're so bitter about game balancing, but I don't think that players are 'entitled' for wanting the same mechanical refinement that was achieved for PoE1 or for expecting further PotD tuning as has been promised by the devs.

Don't know about who you replied to, but too many mechanical changes can be very off-putting. I played PoE1, all fine. White March part 1? All fine.

 

Part 2? Suddenly the game was changed MASSIVELY. UI was changed, I had no idea what every new statistics and all meant, all spells were changed, many changed from rest > per encounter. It basically forced me to re-learn the entire game... as a max level party.

My reponse? **** this... I just put it to the easiest difficulty and auto-attacked my way through the entire expansion. It was extremely off-putting, and I certainly don't hope for a repeat experience here.

[dunehunter]

I wanna use two handed weapons, but my soul of optimizing tells me no don’t do that they suck

Edited July 29, 2018 by dunehunter

[M4xw0lf]

I wanna use two handed weapons, but my soul of optimizing tells me no don’t do that they suck

But they come with +2 coolness. Beat that, dual wielding!

[Teclis23]

Some people believe the frequent posters on these boards are “entitled” or “elite,” but the reality is devs don’t have the time (or interest) to play 300 hours of POE2 at this point in the release cycle. However, you have numerous dedicated and rational players that are seeking to make the game more enjoyable.

 

With that said. I’m perplexed by the devs’ choice to skip the balancing issues this patch, especially with the expansion content coming. My biggest concern with the game is the number of useless skills, abilities, and spells. To clarify, “useless” is defined as one or more of the following issues inherent in a skill/spell:

1) cast/activation time is too long for the power output

2) resource cost too high for the power output

3) duration being too low, regardless of time/resource

4) power output (damage, healing, debuffs, buffs, etc.) being too low, regardless of time/resource

 

I believe the majority of spells/skills can be fixed by simply tweaking activation costs or cast times (#1 and #2 above). This might be the easiest and most expedient fix. If a power is substandard, moving the cast time down or cutting resource costs are equally efficient for balance. If spell and ability useage is/was tracked, you could let the data from veterans players answer this question (Which spells/skills are rarely used?) This isn’t a great fix, but it would go a long way if done correctly.

 

Think about the time it takes a dev to design and animate a skill/spell from cast animation to output/effect. An investment of time was made and all existing skills/spells should be made an asset (or for the inexperienced player, don’t make it a liability if selected).

 

In summary, why offer a skill or ability if it offers little benefit relative to time or resource cost? I was hoping this would be addressed pre-expansion, but now we must either ignore the expansion or simply play with the understanding that some classes still have 50% useless skills/spells. Yes mods help, but mods shouldn’t be the answer to questions successful games rarely ponder.

 

The game is good, but it could be great with some much needed balancing fixes.

My thought exactly. Man this game is so good but so annoyingly frustrating at the same time because of all the stupid balancing implementations that make probably 60-70% of all spells and abilities just not worth using.

 

Try playing a front line multiclass Melee/ Caster. They just dont work because of the long casting times. Look at a melee cipher for example: If you try and cast any of the ciphers affliction applying spells while on the front line there is a really big chance you will be dead before the full cast and recovery cycle is finished. In the 6-7 seconds it take you to cast and recover you will probably get hit at least two or three times if you are engaged by one enemy and probably 4 or 5 times if engaged by two or more In other words your dead.

[Manveru123]

 

I haven't seen enough of your posts to know why you're so bitter about game balancing, but I don't think that players are 'entitled' for wanting the same mechanical refinement that was achieved for PoE1 or for expecting further PotD tuning as has been promised by the devs.

Don't know about who you replied to, but too many mechanical changes can be very off-putting. I played PoE1, all fine. White March part 1? All fine.

 

Part 2? Suddenly the game was changed MASSIVELY. UI was changed, I had no idea what every new statistics and all meant, all spells were changed, many changed from rest > per encounter. It basically forced me to re-learn the entire game... as a max level party.

My reponse? **** this... I just put it to the easiest difficulty and auto-attacked my way through the entire expansion. It was extremely off-putting, and I certainly don't hope for a repeat experience here.

 

There we go. This man gets it.

 

Also I'm pretty sure two-handed and DW were not at the same level in POE1 too, so that's nothing new.

 

EDIT: Also, I'm not bitter about game balancing. I'm bitter about doing complete overhauls to classes in a random patch, because it ****s on my gameplay experience. At least wait for DLC to make my character unplayable plz.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Manveru123

[Haplok]

Try playing a front line multiclass Melee/ Caster. They just dont work because of the long casting times. Look at a melee cipher for example: If you try and cast any of the ciphers affliction applying spells while on the front line there is a really big chance you will be dead before the full cast and recovery cycle is finished. In the 6-7 seconds it take you to cast and recover you will probably get hit at least two or three times if you are engaged by one enemy and probably 4 or 5 times if engaged by two or more In other words your dead.

 

Considering that most Cipher spells, including large aoe debuffs like Secret Horrors, Eyestrike or some hard disables, like Mental Binding, take only 0,5 second to cast... this is simply wrong. There's still the recovery, but that's more like 3 seconds, not 6 (and can be further reduced with buffs/special abilities).

[Teclis23]

 

Try playing a front line multiclass Melee/ Caster. They just dont work because of the long casting times. Look at a melee cipher for example: If you try and cast any of the ciphers affliction applying spells while on the front line there is a really big chance you will be dead before the full cast and recovery cycle is finished. In the 6-7 seconds it take you to cast and recover you will probably get hit at least two or three times if you are engaged by one enemy and probably 4 or 5 times if engaged by two or more In other words your dead.

 

Considering that most Cipher spells, including large aoe debuffs like Secret Horrors, Eyestrike or some hard disables, like Mental Binding, take only 0,5 second to cast... this is simply wrong. There's still the recovery, but that's more like 3 seconds, not 6 (and can be further reduced with buffs/special abilities).

 

The vast majority of them are a 3 sec cast plus the recovery. Plus the armor penalty on top of that.

[Takkik]

 

Try playing a front line multiclass Melee/ Caster. They just dont work because of the long casting times. Look at a melee cipher for example: If you try and cast any of the ciphers affliction applying spells while on the front line there is a really big chance you will be dead before the full cast and recovery cycle is finished. In the 6-7 seconds it take you to cast and recover you will probably get hit at least two or three times if you are engaged by one enemy and probably 4 or 5 times if engaged by two or more In other words your dead.

 

Considering that most Cipher spells, including large aoe debuffs like Secret Horrors, Eyestrike or some hard disables, like Mental Binding, take only 0,5 second to cast... this is simply wrong. There's still the recovery, but that's more like 3 seconds, not 6 (and can be further reduced with buffs/special abilities).

 

I think for a MC martial/caster, a short recovery vs a longer casting could be better for benefit longer from effect like paralyse. Short casting is great for interrupt but the recovery limit the time you have to attack the target after.

More options for the player could be great, like a modal that allow you to switch the recovery/casting time. Some metamagic abilities that allow you to make some spells instant cast/recovery. Give it a limited per encounter use, a special resource (we already have dual resources classes) or increase the spell level (and use a highter spell slot) or make it use 2 spell uses instead of one. As an hybrid MC, less casting but with instant casting or more powerfull casting could be usefull.

[Haplok]

 

 

Try playing a front line multiclass Melee/ Caster. They just dont work because of the long casting times. Look at a melee cipher for example: If you try and cast any of the ciphers affliction applying spells while on the front line there is a really big chance you will be dead before the full cast and recovery cycle is finished. In the 6-7 seconds it take you to cast and recover you will probably get hit at least two or three times if you are engaged by one enemy and probably 4 or 5 times if engaged by two or more In other words your dead.

 

Considering that most Cipher spells, including large aoe debuffs like Secret Horrors, Eyestrike or some hard disables, like Mental Binding, take only 0,5 second to cast... this is simply wrong. There's still the recovery, but that's more like 3 seconds, not 6 (and can be further reduced with buffs/special abilities).

 

The vast majority of them are a 3 sec cast plus the recovery. Plus the armor penalty on top of that.

 

 

No they are not. I just provided 3 good fast cast examples. Some other include Phantom Foes, Psychovampiric Shield, Borrowed Instinct, Pain Block, Echoing Shield, Tenuous Grasp, Body Attunement.

And offensive damage powers also: Mind Blades, Ectopsychic Echo, Mind Lance.

 

In fact, fewer Cipher spells are long cast then fast cast. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Haplok

[Kian]

From the beta 2.0 patch notes:

• Wizard Subclass locked spell restrictions no longer apply to variants of wizard spells (such as Trickster, Priest subclass, and item granted spells).

What does "item granted spells" mean? Because it does not include grimmoire spells, and those are "item granted spells". If it's only referring to single spells/skills given by some items, and doesn't include grimmoires, they need to rephrase.

[Takkik]

From the beta 2.0 patch notes:

• Wizard Subclass locked spell restrictions no longer apply to variants of wizard spells (such as Trickster, Priest subclass, and item granted spells).

What does "item granted spells" mean? Because it does not include grimmoire spells, and those are "item granted spells". If it's only referring to single spells/skills given by some items, and doesn't include grimmoires, they need to rephrase.

Grimoires are trinkets. It refer to think like the mask that give you illusion spells I think. Perhaps scrolls too?

[Baldiedash]

Why are people surprised that the beta patch doesn't include balance changes? It addresses bugs which hinders proper gameplay. Isn't that what a beta patch should do?

 

The balance changes can come with the full patch, when they have figured out which would be best to implement and have tested them.

 

Besides, isn't a beta patch between 1.0 and 2.0 almost literally 1.5?

[Purudaya]

Why are people surprised that the beta patch doesn't include balance changes? It addresses bugs which hinders proper gameplay. Isn't that what a beta patch should do?

 

The balance changes can come with the full patch, when they have figured out which would be best to implement and have tested them.

 

Besides, isn't a beta patch between 1.0 and 2.0 almost literally 1.5?

Well, we've had two patches and a hotfix and we're currently on 1.2x. Typically a jump to a new X.0 version number indicates some major iterative change, while this patch appears to do less for the game than 1.1 did.

 

So far, the balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements have been included in each patch beta. Given that we're two days from release, an absence of balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements at this stage of the beta almost certainly means that we're not going to see them in the release either. Which, again, fine – I'm glad to see bugs squashed (although 2.0 seems to have introduced its fair share of new ones) as long as I know that the devs are actively working in response to gameplay feedback as well.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Purudaya

[Hassat Hunter]

Typically a jump to a new X.0 version number indicates some major iterative change, while this patch appears to do less for the game than 1.1 did.

*Cough* Beast of Winter *cough*

[Purudaya]

 

Typically a jump to a new X.0 version number indicates some major iterative change, while this patch appears to do less for the game than 1.1 did.

*Cough* Beast of Winter *cough*

Beast of Winter is an optional DLC and isn't part of the patch – they've even been advertising the two as separate features that happen to be dropping on the same day. PoE1's jump to 3.0 was similarly advertised as being about UI and gameplay changes dropping universally alongside optional White March content and not due to the content itself.

 

Come to think of it, I don't think optional DLC ever increases a game's version # by itself unless changes to the core game had to be made in order to implement it.

 

---

 

At the end of the day, I'm not a developer and can only speak to "common practices" to the extent that I've experienced them as a consumer. But I bet if we looked at X.0 version iterations for PoE1 or other recent CRPGs we'd typically find more than bug fixes (whether they drop alongside optional DLCs or not).

Edited July 31, 2018 by Purudaya

[Baldiedash]

 

 

Well, we've had two patches and a hotfix and we're currently on 1.2x. Typically a jump to a new X.0 version number indicates some major iterative change, while this patch appears to do less for the game than 1.1 did.

 

So far, the balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements have been included in each patch beta. Given that we're two days from release, an absence of balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements at this stage of the beta almost certainly means that we're not going to see them in the release either. Which, again, fine – I'm glad to see bugs squashed (although 2.0 seems to have introduced its fair share of new ones) as long as I know that the devs are actively working in response to gameplay feedback as well.

 

True, the version jumps usually indicate major changes, but to my mind the patches so far has contained some fairly hefty balance changes. Especially, nerfing some fairly OP abilities and items that allowed for somewhat game-breaking recursive proccing. Those things are almost bugs in of themselves since they are most likely the result of typing errors or misunderstanding of what the results of the proc would actually be, and they really have priority over other balance considerations.

 

There have been some significant of other balance and easy-of-use changes that weren't even in the patch notes, as far as I could tell. So it's not like Obsidian have been lazy and ignored its costumers.

 

It seems though that what people are actually irritated by is that the changes weren't as major in this BETA patch as the ones in previous patches, yet. Now it could be that the balance people at Obsidian are currently somewhat busy with potential problems with the new DLC, and there must be some new mistakes in there that won't be discovered until it is unleashed upon the horde of gamers. They will be quite busy trying to figure out everything that needs doing.

 

My point is, why the surprise? Obsidian isn't the largest studio out there with the resources to infinitely prolong the development cycle to test its products to destruction. That is unfortunately our job as consumers and gamers. It wouldn't surprise me if the balance patch would arrive fairly soon after the 2.0, after they have more data to properly address concerns. 

[Baldiedash]

 

 

Beast of Winter is an optional DLC and isn't part of the patch – they've even been advertising the two as separate features that happen to be dropping on the same day. PoE1's jump to 3.0 was similarly advertised as being about UI and gameplay changes dropping universally alongside optional White March content and not due to the content itself.

 

 

True, the DLC's are optional but so far pretty much all of the free DLC's have coincided with patches as well. Haven't they?

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, you know Part II came along with 3.0 (which, IMO, was utter garbage)... and Part 1? Came along with 2.0

https://steamcommunity.com/games/291650/announcements/detail/132080773557782343

Guess the increments ARE due to DLC... logically. Only you deny it for... I have no clue, why are you?

 

And suuuuure... 2.0 and DLC (and DLC) launch all on August 2... but are not part of the exact same update? Do you really believe that yourself?

 

True, the DLC's are optional but so far pretty much all of the free DLC's have coincided with patches as well. Haven't they?

It's been a while but aren't these like a few kb installs (aside from maybe the portrait pack). Which would mean it's already ingame so you just unlock it with a few kb 'flag' rather than download the actual content itself, which means it HAS to be inside a patch to add the content itself. Edited July 31, 2018 by Hassat Hunter

[Baldiedash]

 

 

It's been a while but aren't these like a few kb installs (aside from maybe the portrait pack). Which would mean it's already ingame so you just unlock it with a few kb 'flag' rather than download the actual content itself, which means it HAS to be inside a patch to add the content itself.

 

 

 

Sure but the official release of the DLCs have coincided with patch releases, I think. The DLC's could very well be a small patch as well to release already imbedded content, but honestly I don't know.

[Hassat Hunter]

I seriously doubt they insert the BoW DLC and just make it a flag to unlock. Makes little sense in a SP-game, only just makes your DLC that much easier to pirate.

[Purudaya]

Well, you know Part II came along with 3.0 (which, IMO, was utter garbage)... and Part 1? Came along with 2.0

https://steamcommunity.com/games/291650/announcements/detail/132080773557782343

Guess the increments ARE due to DLC... logically. Only you deny it for... I have no clue, why are you?

 

And suuuuure... 2.0 and DLC (and DLC) launch all on August 2... but are not part of the exact same update? Do you really believe that yourself?

 

Um, yes? When your car gets a free transmission repair due to a manufacturer recall and the mechanic offers to sell you new windshield wiper blades on the same day, you do understand how the latter is not an interdependent feature of the former, right?

 

Beast of Winter is not a feature of 2.0. If someone could please point me to any Twitch stream, announcement, or release where Obsidian has referred to it as such (and in fact not as explicitly independent), please let me know and I'll gladly retract my argument. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, we've had two patches and a hotfix and we're currently on 1.2x. Typically a jump to a new X.0 version number indicates some major iterative change, while this patch appears to do less for the game than 1.1 did.

 

So far, the balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements have been included in each patch beta. Given that we're two days from release, an absence of balance/gameplay/difficulty improvements at this stage of the beta almost certainly means that we're not going to see them in the release either. Which, again, fine – I'm glad to see bugs squashed (although 2.0 seems to have introduced its fair share of new ones) as long as I know that the devs are actively working in response to gameplay feedback as well.

 

True, the version jumps usually indicate major changes, but to my mind the patches so far has contained some fairly hefty balance changes. Especially, nerfing some fairly OP abilities and items that allowed for somewhat game-breaking recursive proccing. Those things are almost bugs in of themselves since they are most likely the result of typing errors or misunderstanding of what the results of the proc would actually be, and they really have priority over other balance considerations.

 

There have been some significant of other balance and easy-of-use changes that weren't even in the patch notes, as far as I could tell. So it's not like Obsidian have been lazy and ignored its costumers.

 

It seems though that what people are actually irritated by is that the changes weren't as major in this BETA patch as the ones in previous patches, yet. Now it could be that the balance people at Obsidian are currently somewhat busy with potential problems with the new DLC, and there must be some new mistakes in there that won't be discovered until it is unleashed upon the horde of gamers. They will be quite busy trying to figure out everything that needs doing.

 

My point is, why the surprise? Obsidian isn't the largest studio out there with the resources to infinitely prolong the development cycle to test its products to destruction. That is unfortunately our job as consumers and gamers. It wouldn't surprise me if the balance patch would arrive fairly soon after the 2.0, after they have more data to properly address concerns. 

 

 

Yeah, that's reasonable. I guess some minor disappointment is more justified than surprise - as I've said before, I'm confident that Deadfire is going to get there with future updates but it would have been nice if some of the more glaring balance/difficulty issues could've been addressed this time around (and yes, its possible that they may still be). Despite the title of my OP, it's less about whether the patch is called 1.5 or 2.0 and more about what it does/doesn't do and my reaction to that as a player. Should've left the conversation about version #'s/what "should" be in an X.0 out of it.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Purudaya

[Hassat Hunter]

It is indeed not a "feature" of 2.0. It's the entire DAMN REASON it's 2.0. As you've been told on the Steam announcement too apparently. I figured it didn't need saying but apparently it does. The reason it's mentioned seperate is cause you don't need to own the DLC to get the patch. But it's still the "major iterative change" that increments the version. As I've looked up was the same for PoE1.

 

And to use your analogy. Do you think your mechanic would install your transmission, then waits 8 hours, then does the windshield? Or instead waits for both to be present, then do both of them at the same time. Now tell me which of these 2 is the more logical choice to you.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Hassat Hunter