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Melusina

OBS made melee class in multi desireable too much

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Some of us want to choose caster+caster combo, but Deadfire makes that kind of multiclass undesirable.

 

I had nice time with my Celebrant, but I don't see anything else worth my time, besides Tempest, Inquisior, Templar... I want to try Oracle, Spiritualist, Mystic, Hierophant, Sorcerer (there should be better name), Theurge...

 

but on this link every marital class multiclass has it's own page: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98193-the-obsidian-boards-build-list-last-modified-20-july-2018/

Edited by Melusina

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My experience of this kind of game is that players who like character optimization, especially those who like to multiclass, like Spellswords. If you've got a fun Caster/Caster multibuild, post it, you may be the first in your category. :)

Edited by Walstafa

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Every MC is good.

 

Oracle is a great support, combining CC with powerful healing. Spiritualist trades healing for passive support auras and summoned monsters. Mystic can be a powerful DPS if you go Ascendant, but it peaks late because the most kickass buffs are high level. Hierophant works if you go Soul Blade and use Wizard for defensive spell buffs. Theurge can be as strong as Herald when tanking. All you need to do is pick correct subclasses.

 

Sorcerer is the one I'm not sure about, but there's nothing stopping you from buffing yourself like a fat pig with Wizard spells and going Shifter pewpew.

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The problem with caster/ caster multis is that casters dont have many good passives.

 

So all you are achieving is substituting one spell for another

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The problem with caster/ caster multis is that casters dont have many good passives.

 

So all you are achieving is substituting one spell for another

Yeah, and most caster passives are the same (outside of very specific stuff like shapeshifting passives). So you end up with plenty of spells to use but they all compete with your time economy. Martial classes buffs are all instants and you don't have that many active attacks, so you can just take the best one and focus on passives.

 

Each caster class need some uniques passives that allow customization outside of the spell list. Having lot of spells isn't really great since you only have limited casting per level. Passives are a big part of martial builds/MC.

 

Another thing that make caster/martial better than caster/caster, is the synergy you can have with martial abilities/attacks. You can use them when you can't cast spells (citzal martial power of shifter subclass), they work with summoned weapons (all casters have some summoned weapons), they don't have cast time, they allow you to use your weapon special enchantment (you don't have caster weapons that affect/work with spells).

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The caster + caster is very boring. As pure caster you can face only 2 situations - 1. You can kill enemies with AOE, 2. You can't kill enemies with AOE.
Okay you can build something like Soul-blade + Priest Of Skaen, but this class combination has at least x3 full attack and unlimited primary attack spamming and a lot of CC

The problem is encounters design :D

Edited by mant2si
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Solo PotD builds: The Glanfathan Soul Hunter (Neutral seer. Dominate and manipulate your enemies), Harbinger of Doom (Dark shaman. Burn and sacrifice, yourself and enemies for Skaen sake)

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I once played Ascendant/Wizard and it was a good mix. Blights and later spirit Lance built focus very fast for whatever I wanted to use from cipher class

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I once played Ascendant/Wizard and it was a good mix. Blights and later spirit Lance built focus very fast for whatever I wanted to use from cipher class

But cipher isn't a 'pure' caster like wizard/druid/priest. It don't use the same resource system and have different passives than other casters. But i'm not sure playing with cipher offensive spells and other caster spells work that great (casting time compete each other). Spells don't generate focus. So it's really using spells to buff you and help build focus (or use soul annihilation with conjured weapons).

 

Wizard work with everything because it have lot of selfbuffs that are instant or fast cast + utility spells (like eora pull). The fast selfbuffs can complement any class even other caster that don't have them.

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Casters in general are a weaker pick as opposed to melee builds, it kind of comes down to a number of issues, some of which are unavoidable duo to the way casters are set up and function in games in general

 

1) sucky early game

 

Early game casters are usually set up with weak defences and a general lack of (casting) things to do, making them for the most part feel like dead weight until a certain lvl is reached. Double the penalty for multiclassing as it makes reaching these magical spots harder and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

2) lack of (spellcasting) actions

 

Spells are to limited in both number of uses and utility. Proper casters should always be using vaporous (wonder why) and both druids and priest are just out of luck. In all cases class abilities do not make up for this, although spiritshift is a half hearted attempt.

 

3) lack of proper action economy

 

With no proper metamagic and / or prebuffing in the game casters are forced to stand around for upwards of 10 seconds before actuallly being able to contribute to other functions / damage, all the while melee have already ended the encounter (this problem only increases as the game is not that demanding so most fights are over before casters are actually directly contributing.) 

 

Also chaining spells, placement of spells and general magical control does not get executed well by the ai, forcing the player to micro which makes having multiple (full) casters a workout instead of a gaming session. Add the fact that spells are by their nature exclusive, you can only cast so much per encounter, and having access to a wide array of spells becomes much less useful.

Most non-casters suffer less because they have many instant abilities and are prone to spamming the same thing over and over, both options which the casting classes sorely lack. (part of the reason monks are the best class and can never get truly balanced sits in the fact that they have unlimited resources (wounds) next to a fixed resource)

 

4) general lack of utility

 

No magic in dialogues, magic in encounters is usually a cheap trick. No metamagic, No invisibility, rope tricks, contingencies outside of combat etc etc. This world has magic but does not properly utilize it.

 

5) lack of proper itemization

 

Some evocation / fire / lightning support AND..... that's it............

 

6) improper scaling methods

 

So i can meta (empower) my low lvl missiles and still do nothing useful or i can take my 9th missiles and auto-win, that is some award winning design right there.... Ps if i empower a non - damage spell i'm getting what exactly?

 

7) lack of casting passives

 

Casters should have access to more passives then the singular "pick your color"  passive, we need talents for increased duration / number of projectiles / aoe range / aoe into foe aoe (less ........ micro) / extra chaining etc etc, give us metamagic in passives. Next to that make casters work with empower more, and make it more interesting to use outside of damage. If i want to make a caster who uses ultra wide foe only fireballs i should be able to do so, or chain lightnings who jump across an entire room because i have magic chaining, extra chaining and ultra chaining. Hell, that signature spell i chose which i can spam to my hearts desire, or those auto defences that pop up when i get into combat (because i can cast in plate but it still makes me suck so why bother)

 

And yes most of these issues get mitigated when using a non caster / caster combo, or just ignoring casters altogether but casters need quite a bit of help to become on par with kitted out melee in this game.

 

This is not to say that you can not make it work or that it can't be fun, you can, if you're willing to jump through a lot of hoops, but in the end that fighter / monk guy in your party will still shred you a thousand times over.

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Some of us want to choose caster+caster combo, but Deadfire makes that kind of multiclass undesirable.

Melee martial classes often do have cross synergy.

Take a fighter/rogue, and sneak attack bonus is applied even if he uses knockdown.

Take a rogue/barbarian, and carnage is apllied even when he uses rogue strikes.

 

While caster classes usually lack this. As no1fanboy mentioned, this is partially due to lack of unique and impactful casting passives. And another reason is isolated subclass percs.

 

For example:

- a conjurer/druid is not better with firebrand than any other wizard/druid.

- a shifter doesn't get a spiritshift bonus from being specialized transmuter.

- a beguiler/illusionist cannot cast illusion spells farther than a regular wizard.

- a lifegiver/priest heals with priest spells the same as let's say assassin/priest.

- a priest of Magran doesn't benefit from master degree in evocation.

- a multi-classed ascendant doesn't get a free spell usage with vancian spells when reaching max-focus.

and so on.

Edited by MaxQuest
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But there is a good reason for that. It's the Empower mechanic. Due to Empower, caster classes are actually immensely powerful. Sure, early game they suck, but mid-to-late everything changes. Empowered high level spells deal massive amounts of damage, and I personally find casters much more fun to play (most melee I can safely set to AI script and they do just fine).

 

I can recognize the issue with multiclassing tho, most of the time offensive casters are actually better as a single class due to power level, and if they multi, they want a class that directly boosts the power of their spells. At the moment that just means you either multi with a Helwalker for huge MIG and INT bonuses, or maybe an Assassin for Fireballs from stealth.

 

But the multiclasses themselves are not an issue. As I've posted earlier, every single MC in the game is good, assuming you pick correct subclasses and use them in a role that fits said MC instead of trying to force them into one.

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Attributes are general, might/dex/perception/int works with weapons, wizard, druid spells alike.

Worse in BG1/2 when you had to have almost all stats Str/Dex/Con + Int/Wis/Cha. And none of them boosted both roles of a F/M or F/T/M or even a C/M.

 

And buffs and debuffs are still crossing over,

 

Wizard self buffs, Mirror Image, still helps a Priest/Druid/Cipher/Chanter survive better.

Chanter and priest have good AoE buffs, Devotion of the Faithful -> +4 Might, +10 Accuracy to sub-sequent spells cast

 

Cipher/Wizard debuffs help the other type of spells to land.

Ex.

Mental Binding -> Fire Ball (or any other Reflex spell)

Secret Horros -> Killing Bolt (or any other Will/Fortitude)

and countless other combos.

 

Sorcerer has Mirror Image + Spirit Shift, definitely no push-over in melee.

 

 

And some power-levels are just super-weak, Wizard power level 4 is a quite notable one where you wish you could use the resources on power level 3 spells instead.

Spend that time casting good spells from the other class instead of fiddling going *plink*, *wiff*, *wiff* with a ranged weapong.

Ex. on the same power-level: Druid's Moonwell, Priest's Devotion of the Faithful or Shining Beacon Ciper's/Chanter's anything really.

 

 

... I want to try Oracle, Spiritualist, Mystic, Hierophant, Sorcerer (there should be better name), Theurge...

 

but on this link every marital class multiclass has it's own page: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98193-the-obsidian-boards-build-list-last-modified-20-july-2018/

 

Why doesn't this make you inspired to fill in the gap.

Play it, make it work, then tell us how by posting your experiences. We would love to hear about it.

The next player who logs in to these forums feels the same way as you do now, "I want to try a Caster + Caster Multiclass, who can give me advice?"

 

And we simply reply, go read Melusina's guides, she always know how to make them work.

 

So, go fill those gaps, we know you can do it!!!

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I don't see why this is specifically a problem though? Sure, caster-caster multi's may not necessarily have the most synergy, so what? Doesn't mean you can't play them if the combination appeals to you thematically, or you just want to try to make it work well. No one's stopping you from using them, and I have no doubt any combination is perfectly viable. 

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Attributes are general, might/dex/perception/int works with weapons, wizard, druid spells alike.

Worse in BG1/2 when you had to have almost all stats Str/Dex/Con + Int/Wis/Cha. And none of them boosted both roles of a F/M or F/T/M or even a C/M.

 

And buffs and debuffs are still crossing over,

 

Wizard self buffs, Mirror Image, still helps a Priest/Druid/Cipher/Chanter survive better.

Chanter and priest have good AoE buffs, Devotion of the Faithful -> +4 Might, +10 Accuracy to sub-sequent spells cast

 

Cipher/Wizard debuffs help the other type of spells to land.

Ex.

Mental Binding -> Fire Ball (or any other Reflex spell)

Secret Horros -> Killing Bolt (or any other Will/Fortitude)

and countless other combos.

 

Sorcerer has Mirror Image + Spirit Shift, definitely no push-over in melee.

 

 

And some power-levels are just super-weak, Wizard power level 4 is a quite notable one where you wish you could use the resources on power level 3 spells instead.

Spend that time casting good spells from the other class instead of fiddling going *plink*, *wiff*, *wiff* with a ranged weapong.

Ex. on the same power-level: Druid's Moonwell, Priest's Devotion of the Faithful or Shining Beacon Ciper's/Chanter's anything really.

 

 

... I want to try Oracle, Spiritualist, Mystic, Hierophant, Sorcerer (there should be better name), Theurge...

 

but on this link every marital class multiclass has it's own page: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98193-the-obsidian-boards-build-list-last-modified-20-july-2018/

 

Why doesn't this make you inspired to fill in the gap.

Play it, make it work, then tell us how by posting your experiences. We would love to hear about it.

The next player who logs in to these forums feels the same way as you do now, "I want to try a Caster + Caster Multiclass, who can give me advice?"

 

And we simply reply, go read Melusina's guides, she always know how to make them work.

 

So, go fill those gaps, we know you can do it!!!

The problem, is that for each caster + caster combinaison you're talking about, there is a martial + caster MC that do better. Sorcerer? A trickster + shifter will just be better and you can cast the illusions spell while in beast form, and you have all rogues passives + rogues skills that combo with your forms.

 

Same with ciphers, the passives help to boost a martial class not another caster (+1pen with weapons, + x% weapon dmg). You can have some synergy with a shifter/wizard buff/weapons, but less effective than with another martial class with more passives and active weapon attacks.

 

The lack of passives is a problem. I'm not even sure cipher spells work well with other caster passives (and vis versa) because of the keywords (Cipher spells only have mind, deception, echo, shred keywords, lack the element keywords, so no synergie ?).

 

Another problem with caster in general, martial classes have cool effect with weapons & items that modify their active abilities : use a weapon with an AOE and all your martial abilities do now AOE dmg. Caster really lack some metamagic modifiers. Same martial classes have lot of passives that proc stuff on critic, kill, hit etc... The magic system feel really rigid in comparaison.

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Attributes are general, might/dex/perception/int works with weapons, wizard, druid spells alike.

Worse in BG1/2 when you had to have almost all stats Str/Dex/Con + Int/Wis/Cha. And none of them boosted both roles of a F/M or F/T/M or even a C/M.

 

And buffs and debuffs are still crossing over,

 

Wizard self buffs, Mirror Image, still helps a Priest/Druid/Cipher/Chanter survive better.

Chanter and priest have good AoE buffs, Devotion of the Faithful -> +4 Might, +10 Accuracy to sub-sequent spells cast

 

Cipher/Wizard debuffs help the other type of spells to land.

Ex.

Mental Binding -> Fire Ball (or any other Reflex spell)

Secret Horros -> Killing Bolt (or any other Will/Fortitude)

and countless other combos.

 

Sorcerer has Mirror Image + Spirit Shift, definitely no push-over in melee.

 

 

And some power-levels are just super-weak, Wizard power level 4 is a quite notable one where you wish you could use the resources on power level 3 spells instead.

Spend that time casting good spells from the other class instead of fiddling going *plink*, *wiff*, *wiff* with a ranged weapong.

Ex. on the same power-level: Druid's Moonwell, Priest's Devotion of the Faithful or Shining Beacon Ciper's/Chanter's anything really.

 

 

... I want to try Oracle, Spiritualist, Mystic, Hierophant, Sorcerer (there should be better name), Theurge...

 

but on this link every marital class multiclass has it's own page: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98193-the-obsidian-boards-build-list-last-modified-20-july-2018/

 

Why doesn't this make you inspired to fill in the gap.

Play it, make it work, then tell us how by posting your experiences. We would love to hear about it.

The next player who logs in to these forums feels the same way as you do now, "I want to try a Caster + Caster Multiclass, who can give me advice?"

 

And we simply reply, go read Melusina's guides, she always know how to make them work.

 

So, go fill those gaps, we know you can do it!!!

The problem, is that for each caster + caster combinaison you're talking about, there is a martial + caster MC that do better. Sorcerer? A trickster + shifter will just be better and you can cast the illusions spell while in beast form, and you have all rogues passives + rogues skills that combo with your forms.

 

Same with ciphers, the passives help to boost a martial class not another caster (+1pen with weapons, + x% weapon dmg). You can have some synergy with a shifter/wizard buff/weapons, but less effective than with another martial class with more passives and active weapon attacks.

 

The lack of passives is a problem. I'm not even sure cipher spells work well with other caster passives (and vis versa) because of the keywords (Cipher spells only have mind, deception, echo, shred keywords, lack the element keywords, so no synergie ?).

 

Another problem with caster in general, martial classes have cool effect with weapons & items that modify their active abilities : use a weapon with an AOE and all your martial abilities do now AOE dmg. Caster really lack some metamagic modifiers. Same martial classes have lot of passives that proc stuff on critic, kill, hit etc... The magic system feel really rigid in comparaison.

 

The level 1 cipher passive +1 penetration with spells works for all spells not just cipher, but the other passives do not ie the +10 will spell accuracy does not work with non cipher spells. 

 

Also I tested how it would be to get focus from non cipher spells in that I changed some druid spells to "treat as weapon" - and the result is too good as these are aoe/ over time attacks which pretty much guarantee that you are at max focus after 1 spell, so it has to be balanced differently and not just 1 point spell damage = 1 point of cipher focus. 

Edited by 1TTFFSSE

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I don't see why this is specifically a problem though? Sure, caster-caster multi's may not necessarily have the most synergy, so what? Doesn't mean you can't play them if the combination appeals to you thematically, or you just want to try to make it work well. No one's stopping you from using them, and I have no doubt any combination is perfectly viable. 

 

Indeed, "any combination is perfectly viable", which sounds like Josh "not necessarily an optimal character but viable character", in short "no bad builds". Too bad that it does not prevent "bad game design".

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It's less that multiclassing martials is too strong, more that high level abilities are extremely lackluster.  The idea was that high level abilities (and higher power level) would make up for the lack of multiclass synergy and combos.  In practice, most of the time your best abilities are your first level ones, and outside of Barbarian, those get upgraded soon enough to become your pure bread and butter, while the higher level powers are...well, let's be frank, typically absolute garbage, at least compared to lower level ones.  I think either higher level abilities need substantially more love, or lower level abilities need higher level upgrades to make getting those higher levels more tempting, or potentially to downgrade some of those lower level abilities because it's possible they're legitimately too strong to balance stuff around.  Or hey, several of the above, but my point is, if you want multiclassing to be less tempting, you have to make those higher level abilities stand out far more.

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nvm.

Edited by AndreaColombo

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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They need more combat in the game to test things out.

Custom Adventurers, ship battles, bounties, and random exploration. I see no issue at all.

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