Ranged vs Melee Cipher?

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Hey guys, 

 

So, I want to make a Cipher/martial multiclass as my main character primarily for RP reasons (I love the idea of a character that can get into others' heads and do incredibly devastating damage to their souls) and was considering a couple of different options. I really want a Cipher that's allowed to make full use of their powers, including some of the DPS powers like Soul Ignition and Mind Blades. Right now, it's seeming like the best way to do that is through playing a Cipher at range. So, my two options for that are...

 

1. Mindstalker (Ascendant/Trickster): The issue I run into with this one is that there's way too many good Rogue powers and passives to take that work equally well at range as compared to melee. Otherwise, it's a really solid choice - Soul Whip and Sneak Attack go together really well, and there's obvious thematic synergy between Rogue and Cipher (One's a thief of your worldly possessions, the other's a thief of your secrets). 

 

Pros - Sneak Attack and Soul Whip synergize really well, even if I go with Trickster. Access to Trickster gives me some Wizard Illusion powers to supplement my Cipher toolkit. 

 

Cons - Aside from the Trickster "Domain" spells which I get for free, there's a load of really good Rogue options to take at different levels, which makes the choice between them and Cipher powers a lot harder. They can also be used at both melee and ranged for the most part. Squishier, by a degree, than the Transcendent too. 

 

2. Transcendent (Helwalker/Ascendant): This build would focus a lot more on Cipher powers, but using Swift Strikes/Flurry to reduce cast and recovery times and Dance of Death for accuracy and wound generation, as well as Stunning Blow/Surge as a Full Attack. The biggest downside to this build is that, while it would allow me to use most of my favorite Cipher abilities, I'm really limited on choices from the Monk side when I'm forced to pick something, because so many of their powers require melee range. 

 

Pros - Absurd Intellect and respectable Might with Duality of Mortal Presence, 20% burning lash to Ranged attacks, solid boosts to Dexterity/Attack Speed, allows for me to more freely pick Cipher abilities.

Cons - Lose out on a lot of really good Monk powers because they're melee only. 

 

Weapons: Xefa's Imperial Explication/Kitchen Stove (Blunderbusses... Blunderbussi?) Scordeo's Trophy/Thundercrack Pistol (Pistols... if it weren't immediately obvious). I like the idea of dual wielding both for the aesthetic and for the action speed boost, but I've also considered Spearcaster, especially if I decide to go with the Sharpshooter's Garb. 

 

Equipment: Garari Cuirass/Miscreant's Leathers (7% Recovery Time with Cutthroat Cosmo)/Sharpshooter's Garb (For Return Fire)

- Ring of the Marksman (Pickpocket from RDC sailors. This character is pro-Rauatai, so I can't kill them) and Chameleon's Touch

- Acina's Tricorn

- Precognition

- Cloak of Greater Protection

- Bracers of Greater Deflection

-Belt of Eoten Constitution

 

Pros to Ranged Cipher: 

 

- Don't have to micromanage the Cipher as much

- Similar to the character I actually played in the first game, so that's a plus

- More of a flow between attacking and using Cipher powers

- Blunderbusses deal Slash/Pierce damage

 

Cons to Ranged Cipher: 

 

- Pistols deal pure piercing damage which, against Pierce immune/Pierce resistant targets, equals low Focus

- Low Focus means I can't Ascend, and if I can't Ascend I deal significantly less damage

- Blunderbusses deal low damage and have low accuracy

 

There IS something to be said for melee multiclass Ciphers, especially now that a lot of their powers have gotten some much needed love. That being the case, I've played around with mixed melee/spellcasters before, and it seems like, unless the spell you're using has a 0.4 second cast time, there's a bit of a disconnect with attacking, then casting a spell, then attacking again. For this, I would go with the Soul Blade class. Aside from the Rogue/Monk multiclasses I've discussed previously, which would work equally well in melee, I think, with some adjustments, I've considered Paladin as an option. Paladins can get pretty good defensive buffs as is, and can be outfitted with Cipher spells to steal more defenses from enemies. The only issue with this is being bound to a Paladin order RP wise. 

 

[MaxQuest]

I see that both #1 and #2 are ascendants. Since soulblade is not considered, I'd say definitely go for a ranged build.

Because currently you can max focus in 3-6 seconds from the start of combat with firearms, and thus there is no need to put yourself in melee range.

 

Even in the early game, one can take Hand Mortar in main hand, Scordeo Tropy in off hand; enable both proficiency modals and spam Crippling Strike.

Mainhand reload is waved. Offhand reload (with modal and streetfighter passive) is around 1.3s. So you basically make 2 shots every 3s.

 

Moreover, if you need max focus even faster, there are per-rest abilities:

- Wild Barrage from Kitchen Stove

- Storm Rune Shot from Thundercrack Pistol

[lameover]

Ranged Cipher vs Melee Cipher? Hmmm.... 

Gunslinger is an answer!

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I see that both #1 and #2 are ascendants. Since soulblade is not considered, I'd say definitely go for a ranged build.

Because currently you can max focus in 3-6 seconds from the start of combat with firearms, and thus there is no need to put yourself in melee range.

 

Even in the early game, one can take Hand Mortar in main hand, Scordeo Tropy in off hand; enable both proficiency modals and spam Crippling Strike.

Mainhand reload is waved. Offhand reload (with modal and streetfighter passive) is around 1.3s. So you basically make 2 shots every 3s.

 

Moreover, if you need max focus even faster, there are per-rest abilities:

- Wild Barrage from Kitchen Stove

- Storm Rune Shot from Thundercrack Pistol

 

I was thinking Trickster... But that works too, I suppose! 

 

Is the Thundercrack Pistol not worth going for? 

[MaxQuest]

I was thinking Trickster... But that works too, I suppose!

I don't quite see how Trickster can work with Ascendant.

Character wants to max focus asap and start spamming cipher powers.

If he uses trickster spells instead... than he's not better than trickster/fighter.

 

P.S. Cipher dd powers have mediocre base damage. That's why spell-damaging ascendant wants max MIG, since it's one of the best ways to boost spell damage. And either go helwalker for even higher MIG (+lightning strikes) or streetfighter (for faster cast-spamming).

 

Is the Thundercrack Pistol not worth going for?

Thundercrack may be not the best per-encounter focus-generating weapon.

But it has the shock lash and can be enchanted with per-rest Storm Rune Shot. Rune Shot can max your focus alone, also it can win majority of deck-to-deck fights, which is nice in the early game.

Edited July 12, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

I was thinking Trickster... But that works too, I suppose!

I don't quite see how Trickster can work with Ascendant.

Character wants to max focus asap and start spamming cipher powers.

If he uses trickster spells instead... than he's not better than trickster/fighter.

 

P.S. Cipher dd powers have mediocre base damage. That's why spell-damaging ascendant wants max MIG, since it's one of the best ways to boost spell damage. And either go helwalker for even higher MIG (+lightning strikes) or streetfighter (for faster cast-spamming).

 

Is the Thundercrack Pistol not worth going for?

Thundercrack may be not the best per-encounter focus-generating weapon.

But it has the shock lash and can be enchanted with per-rest Storm Rune Shot. Rune Shot can max your focus alone, also it can win majority of deck-to-deck fights, which is nice in the early game.

 

 

So, would you recommend Cipher/Streetfighter or Cipher/Monk? I'm leaning toward Cipher/Streetfighter primarily because of the support for ranged combat (Pierce the Bell)/Crippling Strike) and additional bonus damage. Does the accuracy penalty from Distracted hamper the build too much? 

[arkane83]

Trickster is a great pairing. You will be a much more durable ranged damage dealer thanks to defensive illusion spells.

 

Streetfighter is great too. Use blunderbus modal and you can self trigger their speed boost.

 

 

Assassin isnt bad either. Use an arquebus and open from stealth.

 

 

Go with what sounds fun

[arkane83]

Edit: oops duplicate post

Edited July 12, 2018 by arkane83

[Dorftek]

Kitchen stoves thunderous report is per encounter and vs 2+ targets it will instantly fill your focus.

 

I'd also go streetfighter for the 50% action speed. The affliction is no big deal when u have +20acc from borrowed instincts.

 

In other hand I'd use Scordios trophy for more recovery speed. With the modal on ofc

 

U can put thundercrack pistol in second weapon set to use its per rest shot for another instant full focus.

 

Or u can go monk and use Thundercrack and Scordios Trophy with stunning surge. Helwalker would be my choice here if your playing in a grp.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Kitchen stoves thunderous report is per encounter and vs 2+ targets it will instantly fill your focus.

 

I'd also go streetfighter for the 50% action speed. The affliction is no big deal when u have +20acc from borrowed instincts.

 

In other hand I'd use Scordios trophy for more recovery speed. With the modal on ofc

 

U can put thundercrack pistol in second weapon set to use its per rest shot for another instant full focus.

 

Or u can go monk and use Thundercrack and Scordios Trophy with stunning surge. Helwalker would be my choice here if your playing in a grp.

 

It's a really hard choice. 

 

Monk (Helwalker) gives a ton of Might, Stunning Surge, and Swift Flurry, but I can't use most of the other skills since they're melee only.

 

Rogue (Streetfighter) gives an insane attack speed boost, has attacks that synergize really well with ranged weapons (Pierce the Bell), and really good additional damage (80% as long as I'm under the effects of the modal/the enemies are Sneak Attack vulnerable). 

 

I'm leaning toward Rogue for the thematic appropriateness for the character I want to play - Spy/Assassin. 

[Haplok]

It is very difficult. A choice I recently had to make

 

I'd lean more on Streetfighter for more physical damage focus and Helwalker for more spell damage focus.

That said, Streetfighter can still churn those damage spells at a much faster pace, reaches Ascension faster and contributes way more to physical party damage.

Definitely much easier to play at the critical early levels (particularly before Monk reaches Stunning Surge).

But there are some inconveniences involved: deliberately debuffing your Perception (plus being unable to buff it, so the net Accuracy loss might be like -10). In case of Powder Burns, timing the reloading of your Blunderbuss and activating the effect with reaching Ascension.

 

One reservation about monk I can't really agree with, though. About their abilities being melee only. Of course that's true for many great ones, BUT I'm struggling choosing between ones that are actually useful anyway. Honestly you don't need that much: Duality of Mortal Presence+Burning Wheel, Stunning Blows+Surge (though it does come online pretty late, Rogue can spam Crippling Strike from level 1), Swift Strikes, Dance of Death, Thunderous Blows. But I do like the Cipher powers and mostly fill the levels with them (don't even have space for most Cipher passives).

One thing I haven't tested yet, but looks promising for end-game at least is to pick Long Pain+Instruments of Pain and be able to mix some ranged melee as well.

[MaxQuest]

So, would you recommend Cipher/Streetfighter or Cipher/Monk? I'm leaning toward Cipher/Streetfighter primarily because of the support for ranged combat (Pierce the Bell)/Crippling Strike) and additional bonus damage. Does the accuracy penalty from Distracted hamper the build too much?

Hard to tell. Both Streetfighter and Helwalker have their pros and cons.

The biggest cons of Streetfighter for me is that you can't use Captain's Banquet; and have to pay attention when using Suppress Affliction.

And those of helwalker: enemy rogues being able to focus-fire you; and slower 'ascension'.

 

I'd say roll with the one you want from RP point of view.

 

 

P.S. Regarding rogue abilities: I don't really find Pierce the Bell that useful on ranged ascendant/streetfighter.

There is Devastating Blow - as one of the most time-efficient ways to max focus.

And there is Confounding Blind which is quite decent with a multi-pellet blunderbuss in main hand. Enemy gets around 30 deflection malus, and Stormcracker from offhand greatly benefits from it.

And lastly there is Debilitating Strike - which first of all is cheap (1 guile) and can instantly satisfy conditions for deathblows.