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Does anyone think the Kahanga are actually good for Deadfire?


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modern city still have millions struggle in poverty

 

the other outsiders already choose

so why not the outsider control by player

 

Poverty with an opportunity to rise is not nearly the same thing, and not all societies actively embrace classist thinking let alone put religious significance to their classes.

 

Well, to paraphrase the Durance, "the last thing the Deadfire needs is another foreign incursion." If you can convince yourself that you're doing good and that it's your place to decide, I guess there's no stopping you. I'm pretty comfortable with a free-for-all ending, myself. If the Huana want freedom, they're going to have to figure it out for themselves.

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modern city still have millions struggle in poverty

 

the other outsiders already choose

so why not the outsider control by player

 

Poverty with an opportunity to rise is not nearly the same thing, and not all societies actively embrace classist thinking let alone put religious significance to their classes.

 

Well, to paraphrase the Durance, "the last thing the Deadfire needs is another foreign incursion." If you can convince yourself that you're doing good and that it's your place to decide, I guess there's no stopping you. I'm pretty comfortable with a free-for-all ending, myself. If the Huana want freedom, they're going to have to figure it out for themselves.

 

when nobility are still a thing

class decided by birth are plaguing everyone and everything

ofcourse it must be corrected

but don't choose side between huana vtc and rdc has no significant effect on that

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modern city still have millions struggle in poverty

 

the other outsiders already choose

so why not the outsider control by player

 

Poverty with an opportunity to rise is not nearly the same thing, and not all societies actively embrace classist thinking let alone put religious significance to their classes.

 

Well, to paraphrase the Durance, "the last thing the Deadfire needs is another foreign incursion." If you can convince yourself that you're doing good and that it's your place to decide, I guess there's no stopping you. I'm pretty comfortable with a free-for-all ending, myself. If the Huana want freedom, they're going to have to figure it out for themselves.

 

when nobility are still a thing

class decided by birth are plaguing everyone and everything

ofcourse it must be corrected

but don't choose side between huana vtc and rdc has no significant effect on that

 

No. Nobility didn't litterally, at a systemic level, force the poor to eat garbage.

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To the main question, no the Kahanga are the worst of the factions, but all the factions are bad. The reasons have all been written here, the societal structure, backwardness, and the leadership are irrational, illiberal, non-egalitarian, and regressive. As for colonialism, there's two myths about the world that certain political forces have adopted, one is that the problems facing the people of the world were lesser before colonialism (nativism, anti-Western bias) and that groups like the Huana morally own property and people in a way that's better than colonial powers.

My view of the Deadfire and why I chose the independent route was that power vacuums are going to create disasters, and while knocking out some leaders from each faction was probably going to make things better as long as the other two factions were keeping them busy they couldn't do too much damage. The Huana was somewhat shielding the tribes from full-on exploitation, the Valians would eventually lead to progress, and the Rautai would enforce order in the chaos.

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To the main question, no the Kahanga are the worst of the factions, but all the factions are bad. The reasons have all been written here, the societal structure, backwardness, and the leadership are irrational, illiberal, non-egalitarian, and regressive. As for colonialism, there's two myths about the world that certain political forces have adopted, one is that the problems facing the people of the world were lesser before colonialism (nativism, anti-Western bias) and that groups like the Huana morally own property and people in a way that's better than colonial powers.

My view of the Deadfire and why I chose the independent route was that power vacuums are going to create disasters, and while knocking out some leaders from each faction was probably going to make things better as long as the other two factions were keeping them busy they couldn't do too much damage. The Huana was somewhat shielding the tribes from full-on exploitation, the Valians would eventually lead to progress, and the Rautai would enforce order in the chaos.

Obsidian really did a great job of showing more than one side to this. It would have been so easy to just take the easy route and have an ultimate bad guy, but this game lacks that.

 

I think that is what I found so appealing about the ending. There was no bad guy. There was a goal, but no villain.

 

As for creating a vacuum. . .the Deadfire seemed like a lost cause anyway.

Edited by nstgc
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To the main question, no the Kahanga are the worst of the factions, but all the factions are bad. The reasons have all been written here, the societal structure, backwardness, and the leadership are irrational, illiberal, non-egalitarian, and regressive. 

 

And I think that has a good chance of continuing, except under worse conditions, if the VTC or Rautai gain the upper hand. Colonial powers generally have to co-opt existing power structures to get and maintain control. The idea that the Rautai can somehow usher in some kind of superior, more egalitarian society across all of the Deadfire seems naive. The colonial powers will likely combine the worst of the Hauna with some extra oppression, murder and exploitation on top. 

 

It's possible, if the Rautai are truly committed, that after generations of war, blood and atrocity, that the Deadfire will be fully assimilated to a 'superior' society (though I'm sure Rautai has plenty of it's own problems which we don't get to see). But it's also possible that an independent Huana society will evolve for the better due to it's contact with the outside world. If I'm rolling the dice either way, I'd prefer the path with less atrocities and more self-determination. 

Edited by aimlessgun
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A lot of npcs mention that the awful conditions of the roparu in the gullet is relatively new. I would argue that much of that additional suffering is coming from the Kahanga having to allocate so many resources to keeping the foreign powers at bay. Every copper spent on undermining the RDC or the VTC means another copper that isn't being spent on helping the roparu. Islands are lost to slavers (who work together with the old Principi), the RDC, or the VTC which then causes people, most of them roparu, to relocate to Neketaka. 

The prize share system definitely needs to allocate more resources towards the roparu. The internal contradiction of the roparu being essential for feeding and housing the other castes while at the same time being fed the least needs to be addressed. But this can't happen while outside colonial forces are applying pressure. 

 

And it's important to not just focus on Neketaka. The two other major Huana settlements, Tikawara and Satahuzi, should be considered. In Tikawara the prize share is failing because the ranga is forcibly trying to establish a settlement on an island that simply cannot sustain them. And why? Because he desperately wants the VTC to save them. (Ironically, I think he's also forcing the lagufeaeth off of land that once belonged to them.)

 

On the other hand, Satahuzi is doing relatively well. None of the roparu there are starving. And the VTC mostly leaves them alone because of their strong leadership. When you do the coinbag quest for Rinco you can have an interesting conversation with Mokeha. If you mention that Rinco's family will starve without that money, she's shocked. Why would Rinco's ranga, the governor, let him, a "kuaru", starve? And I'd imagine that if she saw him as a roparu instead she'd still be shocked since Port Maje isn't exactly suffering from a famine. The idea that you have to buy food and housing is completely alien to her. She finds it completely absurd that any sensible society would commodify things required for survival.

Edited by topologista
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modern city still have millions struggle in poverty

 

the other outsiders already choose

so why not the outsider control by player

 

Poverty with an opportunity to rise is not nearly the same thing, and not all societies actively embrace classist thinking let alone put religious significance to their classes.

 

Well, to paraphrase the Durance, "the last thing the Deadfire needs is another foreign incursion." If you can convince yourself that you're doing good and that it's your place to decide, I guess there's no stopping you. I'm pretty comfortable with a free-for-all ending, myself. If the Huana want freedom, they're going to have to figure it out for themselves.

 

when nobility are still a thing

class decided by birth are plaguing everyone and everything

ofcourse it must be corrected

but don't choose side between huana vtc and rdc has no significant effect on that

 

No. Nobility didn't litterally, at a systemic level, force the poor to eat garbage.

 

ofcourse neketaka have problem feeding everyone

do they keep food for thousands extra population somewhere in the tropical island underground vault?

the struggle between faction force people flee to the new city huana doesn't have experience governing for centuries

the unrealistic part are not how awful the city can be are the fact such city exist at all

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modern city still have millions struggle in poverty

 

the other outsiders already choose

so why not the outsider control by player

 

Poverty with an opportunity to rise is not nearly the same thing, and not all societies actively embrace classist thinking let alone put religious significance to their classes.

 

Well, to paraphrase the Durance, "the last thing the Deadfire needs is another foreign incursion." If you can convince yourself that you're doing good and that it's your place to decide, I guess there's no stopping you. I'm pretty comfortable with a free-for-all ending, myself. If the Huana want freedom, they're going to have to figure it out for themselves.

 

when nobility are still a thing

class decided by birth are plaguing everyone and everything

ofcourse it must be corrected

but don't choose side between huana vtc and rdc has no significant effect on that

 

No. Nobility didn't litterally, at a systemic level, force the poor to eat garbage.

 

True, doing that has been the modus operandi of the worst class/caste system ever. The one touting about merit and freedom. The system where the "official" classes have been torn down but still de facto exist. The one that heaps praise and more wealth on the wealthiest while stomping down on the poor. Telling the poor it's their own fault.

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Coming from an Indian (and Hindu on top of that) background, the plot surrounding the Huana and the colonial powers was definitely a bit close to home, and I mean that in an absolutely complimentary way. The writers did an excellent job of portraying the real conflict beyond "bad outsiders/ heroic natives/ evil natives". 

 

Because my own culture had to deal with this very scenario first hand, it's a bit of a difficult one to look at, even in the context of a video game. On the one hand, the whole caste system is to this day  a thorn that occasionally rears its ugly head, and definitely something I personally find villainous. So on account of that, the Huana loose points. 

 

HOWEVER...

 

On the flip side, does a native land deserve to loose its independence to a foreign nation on account of having SOME laws and systems that don't morally hold up, but could potentially see change? In the real world, India was absolutely exploited and bashed into the ground by exploitative colonial powers. Britain might have done a few things right (pushed the caste laws further into the background, brought in a certain amount of technical innovation), but does it really justify the mountain of troubles it brought with it? Does it justify to the outright theft, killings, borderline enslavement and attempts to overthrow a native culture? 

 

For a lot of the above reasons, despite how sympathetic I was to the VTC's scientific endeavors, or the RDC's attempt to bring in  a "New Order", it's hard to say that they are in the "right". Given a choice, I lined up with VTC the first time over RDC, given the latter is more overtly imperialistic and aggressively trying to eradicate the Huana way of life. But the VTC essentially wants to loot the land in a more permanently effective way than the Principi, letting alone the fact that they're essentially mining souls. 

 

TL;DR: Huana caste system is terrible, but RDC and VTC are not promising to replace it with things that are necessarily better. RDC will turn the Deadfire into a colony of second class citizens, while VTC will just loot and plunder the land, to hell with the natives. They'll replace one evil with other kinds, and its hard to say that their brand of exploitation would be inherently better. 

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To be clear, I struggled whether to pick the Ruatai or the Valians.  The Valians don't really treat the Deadfire as a homeland and don't get rid of the pirates/undead/criminals.  But the Valians are open to animancy and have a better shot at replacing the wheel.  The Ruatai rid the Deadfire of pirates, criminals, slavers, and undead.  And the Ruatai lift up the Roparu and all Huana as future Ruatai citizens.

 

I don't agree that the Ruatai will treat the Huana like 2nd class citizens.  In game Ruatai all say they view the Huana as long lost cousins, and Kana/Maia are children of 1st generation Huana immigrants to Ruatai.  So the Huana are very accepted in Ruatai society, basically becoming Ruatai themselves.  Finally, although they are cautious about animancy and adra, they are no slouch in scientific progress.  And given enough time they too will replace the wheel.  

 

The Kahanga should not be allowed to dominate other Huana just because they are Huana themselves.  In fact the Huana in Tikawara, Poko Kahara, and Port Maje want nothing to do with the Kahanga.  The Kahanga being the most backward and weakest of the 3 just shuts them out in my book.  The Kahanga and the Principi are the 2 factions that probably won't replace the wheel anytime soon.  

Edited by cyberpunker
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All of the factions are bad currently.

 

Huana are all high and mighty and stuck in ancient ways that don't work anymore.

VTC collaborate with slavers and are in it only for the money.

Royal Deadfire Company are basically absorbing the Huana without respecting their herritage.

And the Principi, well let's not go there eh.

 

The only good change that can be made is through Queen Onekaza, but she needs to be willing.

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On the flip side, does a native land deserve to loose its independence to a foreign nation on account of having SOME laws and systems that don't morally hold up, but could potentially see change? does it really justify the mountain of troubles it brought with it? Does it justify to the outright theft, killings, borderline enslavement and attempts to overthrow a native culture? 

 

Morally, no. Historically, yes usually. 

 

My ancestors were conquered by Romans, Saxons, Normans and the Welsh before staging an rather unlikely revolution and subsequent annex of native lands on another continent. There was nothing wrong with the previous cultures, but it came down to force of arms and dumb luck. 

 

Who is conquered, and who conquers, isn't a matter of deserving. 

I guess that we have agency to decide, within the events of the game, what happens is for the best though. 

Edited by Parasol_Syndicate
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Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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ofcourse neketaka have problem feeding everyone

 

do they keep food for thousands extra population somewhere in the tropical island underground vault?

the struggle between faction force people flee to the new city huana doesn't have experience governing for centuries

the unrealistic part are not how awful the city can be are the fact such city exist at all

 

They're in a tropical paradise. There's no reason other than mismanagement that people should be starving. There's no reason for the Roparu to not go out into the wide world and hunt and grow their own food, except an archaic caste system convinces them that their suffering is ordained on religious grounds and if they try to alleviate it, they wouldn't benefit from their efforts anyway.

 

True, doing that has been the modus operandi of the worst class/caste system ever. The one touting about merit and freedom. The system where the "official" classes have been torn down but still de facto exist. The one that heaps praise and more wealth on the wealthiest while stomping down on the poor. Telling the poor it's their own fault.

So essentially what you're saying is that no choice makes any real difference in the end, it's all flavor. That being the case, I pick the flavor that at least gives lip service to people being able to change their circumstances. Though in the case of the game, there isn't much hope that the Huana are going to get there anytime soon.

Edited by Celan
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All of the factions are bad currently.

 

Huana are all high and mighty and stuck in ancient ways that don't work anymore.

VTC collaborate with slavers and are in it only for the money.

Royal Deadfire Company are basically absorbing the Huana without respecting their herritage.

And the Principi, well let's not go there eh.

 

The only good change that can be made is through Queen Onekaza, but she needs to be willing.

I'd like to point out, again, that Castol wasn't in it for the money. He talked money to the VT Board, but money is second in his mind. he did collaborate with slavers, which is reprehensible, however considering two of the other factions did the same I can't really hold it against him, especially since it seemed as if he genuinely disliked not only dealing with Pirates, but slavers as well.

 

@Daggerknight To me it isn't just what's best for the Deadfire. Frankly, the places seems pretty much ****ed no matter what. So I took a step back and looked at what would be best for the world. If all options are just about equally bad, may as well pick the one that benifits the good of the rest of the world. Besides, the Deadfire is part of the world.

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All of the factions are bad currently.

 

Huana are all high and mighty and stuck in ancient ways that don't work anymore.

VTC collaborate with slavers and are in it only for the money.

Royal Deadfire Company are basically absorbing the Huana without respecting their herritage.

And the Principi, well let's not go there eh.

 

The only good change that can be made is through Queen Onekaza, but she needs to be willing.

I'd like to point out, again, that Castol wasn't in it for the money. He talked money to the VT Board, but money is second in his mind. he did collaborate with slavers, which is reprehensible, however considering two of the other factions did the same I can't really hold it against him, especially since it seemed as if he genuinely disliked not only dealing with Pirates, but slavers as well.

 

@Daggerknight To me it isn't just what's best for the Deadfire. Frankly, the places seems pretty much ****ed no matter what. So I took a step back and looked at what would be best for the world. If all options are just about equally bad, may as well pick the one that benifits the good of the rest of the world. Besides, the Deadfire is part of the world.

 

Castol is one man, how many Vailian governors there are? How many of them are dedicated to what Castol wants? And Castol's position is precarious enough, even if the immediate threat is removed.

 

Don't get me wrong however. I think the VTC is the second least-worst. My love for science is quite possibly blinding me there. And even then, I see Deadfire getting screwed over. Vailians don't care about the Deadfire. It will be stripped bare of resources by Huana hands who see nothing of the gains, until there is no more resources and they are abandoned. The hope is for the rest of the world.

 

I consider the Huana the least worst, as I've made pretty clear before. That gives the natives of Deadfire a chance. It's a small chance, likely it won't be taken and Deadfire gets screwed over. But at least there was a possibility they could've made it work.

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The Huana caste system is really bad. I mean, even assuming their specific reincarnation system is true... the story shows us far more Roparu than any other caste combined, and we are repeatedly told that the Roparu numbers are swelling dramatically. That means the you have to spend several 'cycles' suffering as a Roparu before you get one 'cycle' as any other caste unless you are just put in some kind of soul-based time out.

On top of that, there are at least five times where the Huana reference being reincarnated as random animals and sea life. So they seem to believe that it's a valid consequence for at least really unpleasant people.

Then you have non Roparu who can't even contribute to their society without sneaking around, like that guy in Tikawara who knows common sense farming tips about seeds and can't do anything about it because of his caste, even though it's going to cause people to starve and die (starving being a pretty horrendous way to die).

For all the horrors of colonialism, at least the Castol VTC and RDC are going to dramatically raise quality of life for the majority of Huana citizens within a generation or two.

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For all the horrors of colonialism, at least the Castol VTC and RDC are going to dramatically raise quality of life for the majority of Huana citizens within a generation or two.

I don't think VTC cares about improving the region at all, unless it benefits them. I don't think Castol will strip-mine the place, but he isn't there to make nice with the locals. Also, as has been said, once VTC is done with the region, they will leave. The result will be a TERRIBLE power vacuum. VTC taking over, even Castol, leaves the Deadfire dead sooner or later.

 

edit: It has been pointed out that yes, the VTC does have a reason to invest in the area. They have been there for about 100 years now, and many Vallains call the Deadfire home. They may not be there to enrich the natives, but they are going to "improve" the property.

Edited by nstgc
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To anyone who doesn't want to support Kahanga because it's bad for Roparu: why do you think VTC or RDC would improve their lives? VTC exploits the power disparity of Huana by hiring Roparu for minimal wages for physical labor. Or use them in animancy experiments. Once they done mining adra they would pack up and leave, leaving the Huana forever changed and not for the better. RDC might materially change lives for better but at the same time they destroy their culture, which they also don't even try to understand and don't value. The Kahanga do not represent whole Huana and their claim to power and attempt to centralize Huana is a direct result of dealing with Vailians and Rauatai. So I suppose only a strong, centralized Huana might have a chance against foreign influences wanting to exploit them. And it's true that they're willfully ignorant of Roparu plight but I think the change of caste system should come from Roparu, not any foreigners who try to upend the society for their own goals. They don't care.

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I don't think VTC cares about improving the region at all, unless it benefits them. I don't think Castol will strip-mine the place, but he isn't there to make nice with the locals. Also, as has been said, once VTC is done with the region, they will leave. The result will be a TERRIBLE power vacuum. VTC taking over, even Castol, leaves the Deadfire dead sooner or later.

Castol cares about mass innovation, and the trickle down effect of their technology is certain to benefit the Huana the same way that the invention of electricity benefits countless people in our own world. And we're also forgetting that the VTC have been in the region for over 100 years, predating the entire Kahanga unification. They have plenty of 'natives' who consider Deadfire to be their home as well. They have been making 'moderate' with the locals for generations, and will probably never really leave. Not as long as the population of Deadfire needs their Walmart.

 

None of this is to say that the VTC are good people. They are essentially a fantasy mega corporation, with all the potential mustache twirling that implies. But the game makes it clear that the mustache twirlers are only some of the VTC.

 

Ironically, the Kahanga are the most racist faction in the game. We constantly hear the Huana tribes saying they want foreigners to get off their lawn. But many of those foreigners are natives to the Deadfire and have been their entire lives. They just aren't the same race. Even the the RDC has several non-Aumaua that seem pretty cool with things. How many non-Aumaua Kahanga do we see?

Edited by Incendax
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To anyone who doesn't want to support Kahanga because it's bad for Roparu: why do you think VTC or RDC would improve their lives? VTC exploits the power disparity of Huana by hiring Roparu for minimal wages for physical labor. Or use them in animancy experiments. Once they done mining adra they would pack up and leave, leaving the Huana forever changed and not for the better. RDC might materially change lives for better but at the same time they destroy their culture, which they also don't even try to understand and don't value. The Kahanga do not represent whole Huana and their claim to power and attempt to centralize Huana is a direct result of dealing with Vailians and Rauatai. So I suppose only a strong, centralized Huana might have a chance against foreign influences wanting to exploit them. And it's true that they're willfully ignorant of Roparu plight but I think the change of caste system should come from Roparu, not any foreigners who try to upend the society for their own goals. They don't care.

 

 

1.  The Roparu starving under the Kahanga or Prize-Share system (read the codex, it says Roparu are viewed by Huana society to have a responsibility for taking the starvation).   Those Roparu are hired by the VTC and able to buy food for themselves and family.  Also VTC doesn't use them for animancy experiments.  They specifically make clear that they need a Watcher or at least someone with soul manipulating techniques (like another animancer).  Also, Castol VTC do not pack up and leave, instead they actually want to develop their Deadfire trading posts to advance society at large.  Meaning the Roparu do continue to benefit.   Also, VTC do not discriminate against Roparu.  

 

2. The RDC, as you said and others noted, integrate the Roparu into their own society.  They become Ruatai, just like the Ocean Aumua.  That is literally the opposite of oppression, when you and them become one people.  So it would be a melting pot and the Roparu probably adapt like Kana or Maia (in other words, able to rise up above their "caste"). 

 

2-5. I don't know why you question the not starving and respect part over "culture".  The Huana culture leads to Roparu starvation, I think the Roparu would be the first ones to discard Huana culture in a heartbeat.  

 

3. You are talking about a Roparu revolution, like a class conflict.  Besides having thousands of years to do that and failing, those kinds of conflict are socially destructive in real life.  Finally, the Roparu are starving, they probably cannot enact a "peasant revolution" of the sorts. 

 

4.  Even the Principi would be better for the Roparu.  At least the Principi (as we are told in game and as we see in game) treat Roparu like equals and don't even see caste.  Roparu end up working as deckhands, cannoneers, etc. and can even rise up to captain under the Principi.  

 

5.  The Kahanga are the object of focus because they are literally the ones you are giving power to. 

Edited by cyberpunker
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It almost seems like you consider communism a negative?

 

 Of course it is. That experiment has been done in the real world multiple times on different continents by people with very different cultural backgrounds. Market economies lead to plenty; controlled economies lead to  starvation. For example, China made two changes; private property is allowed again and prices will be set by the market (for the most part; there is some government control of investment). They went from starvation under Mao to the world-class, fast growing economy they now have. Markets will always work better than controlled economies because they act as a self organizing system that makes better decisions about how to allocate resources. 

 

In addition to that whole starvation thing, governments that have enough power to take possession of all of the property in a society,  also have enough power to be tyrants. And they are, always. If the leaders of the revolution are nice people, bad people murder them after the revolution and take power.  This is so reliable it is almost a law of nature.

 

This is where somebody will chime in with "But that wasn't  REAL communism because reasons."

 

 Yes. Yes, it was real communism. That's how real communism works as opposed to theoretical communism. Karl Marx correctly identified some problems but his solution turned out to be wrong. Get over it.

 

Or, move to one of the existing communist countries but be sure to hide your passport so you can leave when you realize what you've gotten yourself into..

 

Until then, markets work better than government controls and governments that can take all of your property are powerful enough to do visit any amount of suffering on you that the most corrupt, sadistic member (you know, those people that want power) of that government wishes.

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The Huana caste system is really bad. I mean, even assuming their specific reincarnation system is true... the story shows us far more Roparu than any other caste combined, and we are repeatedly told that the Roparu numbers are swelling dramatically. That means the you have to spend several 'cycles' suffering as a Roparu before you get one 'cycle' as any other caste unless you are just put in some kind of soul-based time out.

 

On top of that, there are at least five times where the Huana reference being reincarnated as random animals and sea life. So they seem to believe that it's a valid consequence for at least really unpleasant people.

 

Then you have non Roparu who can't even contribute to their society without sneaking around, like that guy in Tikawara who knows common sense farming tips about seeds and can't do anything about it because of his caste, even though it's going to cause people to starve and die (starving being a pretty horrendous way to die).

 

For all the horrors of colonialism, at least the Castol VTC and RDC are going to dramatically raise quality of life for the majority of Huana citizens within a generation or two.

despite what most huana believe

that is likely not how caste work

mataru decide caste when a child birth by their soul

and queen are cipher

so more likely ciphers in mataru will decide their caste base on how powerful their soul are

like glanfathan decide who have the potential to be chieftain

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