What is the point of increasing returns in deflection? Or how much deflection is "enough"?

[grasida]

I haven't really made an effective deflection tank in this game before. At what point do you start to get enough defense that further gains make a noticeable improvement in effective health? For people unclear about the concept of increasing returns with this type of defensive stat in rpgs, check thelee's thread for a thorough and easy to follow explanation here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/102824-class-build-mechanics-101-lets-learn-with-umezawa-streetfighterwael/.
 
I'm planning a helwalker/soul blade transcendent using tuotilo's palm, the monk punching shield. That shield has a nice synergy with soul blade, since constantly repeatable primary attacks allow you to mostly avoid punching with the shield, meaning you enjoy the recovery boost from dual wielding with the defense boost of the shield without much downside. The shield itself can give up to +28 deflection and reflex (+4 small shield, +8 legendary, +6 shield style, +10 from the "balanced shield" enchant). Cipher can eventually give another +20 from borrowed instinct, for a total of +48. A chanter could give another +10, or a paladin could give +20. Between helwalker, duality of mortal presence and the shield, fortitude, reflex and will should also be very high. With that character, would I be able to hit a high enough deflection that way to significantly reduce incoming damage?

 

But this thread isn't meant only for that character. Looking at the various deflection buffs, it's incredibly hard to assess their value because I've never really tried to build heavily in deflection or payed too much attention to enemy accuracy. Any attempt at light investments have never payed off, so I guess I've never hit the point where you really start to gain a lot from each point. For example, I'm curious how much deflection you need to get from equipment and buffs before investment in resolve beats investment in constitution.

[AeonsLegend]

I'm not an expert on this subject, but it is directly related to the accuracy of the enemy. You have a D100 roll and you add accuracy to that. This is countered by deflection which is static. My Thief/Fighter Eder had about 160 deflection with some buffs, but he could go higher. Vs lower level enemies they would just riposte to death.

 

I think it is like this, deflection is enough if your enemy has about 50% chance of hitting you. The game is balanced to allow you to win this way.

[dunehunter]

Check what is the highest accuracy enemy can get in this game, and if you have 75 more deflection than that number, then it is enough.

[mant2si]

I'm not an expert on this subject, but it is directly related to the accuracy of the enemy. You have a D100 roll and you add accuracy to that. This is countered by deflection which is static. My Thief/Fighter Eder had about 160 deflection with some buffs, but he could go higher. Vs lower level enemies they would just riposte to death.

 

I think it is like this, deflection is enough if your enemy has about 50% chance of hitting you. The game is balanced to allow you to win this way.

PotD - L20

 

* 110 - 120 Is minimum 

* 130 - 140 Is good

* +150        Make you near invincible (only bosses can hit you)

 

If you can hit 160 deflection I suggest you to install mod that increase game difficult , all enemies will only graze you (which mean you will take only 50% of damage)

Edited June 24, 2018 by mant2si

[Marigoldran]

Once you hit 120+ deflection, armor rating is more important.  

[AeonsLegend]

Base stats have a big part in this. Base deflection is 20 (unless you play barbarian) and you gain +3 per level. That's 77 free deflection at max level. Throw in some equipment and buffs and you can easily get over 100 deflection without a shield.

 

Here's my level 17 eder without buffs. Main reason is Cadhu Scalth tower shield which provides 26 deflection

[Kaylon]

I think the last boss has something like 134 melee accuracy and 15 melee penetration on potd. You need 204 deflection to avoid all hits, 184 deflection to be hit only by grazes and 134 deflection to avoid criticals.

 

Based on that here are my potd tiers at lv20 (just for melee):

- 100+ deflection and 12+ melee AR - light tank

- 134+ deflection & 8+ melee AR - tank

- 134+ deflection & 16+ melee AR - master tank

- 184+ deflection & 8+ melee AR - superman

- 184+ deflection & 16+ melee AR - walking fortress

- 204+ deflection - god

Edited June 24, 2018 by Kaylon

[AeonsLegend]

I think the last boss has something like 134 melee accuracy and 15 melee penetration on potd. You need 204 deflection to avoid all hits, 184 deflection to be hit only by grazes and 134 deflection to avoid criticals.

 

Based on that here are my potd tiers at lv20 (just for melee):

- 100+ deflection and 12+ melee AR - light tank

- 134+ deflection & 8+ melee AR - tank

- 134+ deflection & 16+ melee AR - master tank

- 184+ deflection & 8+ melee AR - superman

- 184+ deflection & 16+ melee AR - walking fortress

- 204+ deflection - god

And this is why D&D has a dice roll of 20 with 20 being a hit no matter what your stats are. Also makes no sense, but at least it prevents people from cheesing too much.

[Boeroer]

Bonus ROFL points for using "D&D" and "prevents people from cheesing too much" in one sentence.

 

I'm still playing my Aloth as a high deflection Spellblade who wants to use Riposte and Offensive Parry of the WotEP. It's not too easy to get him to very high values during mid game without the use of a shield.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Bonus ROFL points for using "D&D" and "prevents people from cheesing too much" in one sentence.

 

I'm still playing my Aloth as a high deflection Spellblade who wants to use Riposte and Offensive Parry of the WotEP. It's not too easy to get him to very high values during mid game without the use of a shield.

Yea yea we all know the sorcerer cheese with over 80 armor class or the max (18)DR build with over 70 armor class. In general though if you don't go looking for the maximum obtainable defenses then your character is very respectable and doesn't feel broken. Plus if you play tabletop you have a DM to prevent you from cheesing. Also, in PoE any class becomes broken at higher level because any class levels up with +3 to defenses.

 

Still a monk/rogue with 14 attacks will have a decent chance of hitting even a maxed armor enemy even if his base attack bonus is too low. That 5%x14 will do the trick anyway.

 

I'm kind of in the middle between a d100 roll and a d20 roll. In any case deflection (or armor from D&D) the roll should have bigger impact, but it doesn't because the base values are so damn high.

[nstgc]

 I'm kind of in the middle between a d100 roll and a d20 roll. In any case deflection (or armor from D&D) the roll should have bigger impact, but it doesn't because the base values are so damn high.

The way I look at it the base defense is a counter to base offense. So its more of a level check. You could accomplish the exact same thing by adding 3*(defendersLevel - attackersLevel).

 

For what its worth, I'd rather see a crit/hit/graze > hit/graze/miss or hit/graze/miss > crit/hit/graze (depending on who's level is higher it either upgrades or downgrades).

Edited June 24, 2018 by nstgc

[SwanRonson]

How on earth do you even get near 204 deflection now that Cadhu and Casita Armor have been nerfed? Herald? Crusader?

[dunehunter]

How on earth do you even get near 204 deflection now that Cadhu and Casita Armor have been nerfed? Herald? Crusader?

 

Arcane Knight

[Marigoldran]

But the deflection is only temporary, until you run out of spells.  

[nstgc]

But the deflection is only temporary, until you run out of spells.  

Yeah. Learned this the hard way. . .

[aimlessgun]

Difficult to say when Resolve >= Con because presumably you'll be healing and increase your HP pool in that manner much more than Con ever can. However in a naive comparison you could say that at Deflection being 55 over enemy accuracy, they only hit you 20% of the time (all graze), 1 more deflection takes that to 19% of the time, so you've increased your EHP by ~5%. Though when you're removing the last of the enemy Hit rolls (from deflection +49 to +50) it's also approaching a 5% EHP increase. 

 

However if you're in this range the gains quickly ramp up from there, at the extreme going from Deflection +74 to +75 you become unhittable and gain infinite EHP

Edited June 26, 2018 by aimlessgun

[SwanRonson]

Think a Crusader could reach that 184 mark without having to use duration spells?