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Percent has its problems like:

- low values do too little, high values do too much

- DPH doesn't matter, DPS is everything

 

Changing penetration to % OTOH would certainly be an improvement.

Agreed.

And a mixed system where a percent (which depends on weapon type) of incoming damage ignores armor; or a system where armor has both flat and percentage reduction could be the next step.

 

seldom see his post anymore. is he gone?

Well, not gone.. Am still lurking)

 

Just felt burnt-out a bit, and switched to something else for a time. Specifically am having a blast with Total War: Rome 2)

And btw, there is a defense/armor system too.

 

A unit first makes an attack_vs_defense roll in order to check if weapon connects.

If it does, unit's damage value is checked.

> A predefined percentage of it (usually 10-40% depending on weapon / unit type) is called armor-piercing and goes through enemy armor.

> While the second portion (i.e. the remaining 90-60%) does check for enemy armor. And is percentually decreased by it.

 

Also there are shields, whose strengh is added to unit armor (and also provides a chance to mitigate ranged damage), if attacked from front or from the left.

 

Additionally:

- defenses are lower when flanked and especially when attacked from the rear

- accuracy is lower and armor is less effective when fatigued

 

 

 

@MaxQuest

 

Any suggestions about values? I'm interested in your professional opinion)

I don't have a solid opinion on this matter yet. Since there is many things to take into account. But here are a few unfinished lines of thought:

> Gradual approach will feel more natural. And will partially decrease the "all-or-nothing" effect.

> Comparing base damage and pen values of weapons (especially those of Great Swords and Pollaxes) it looks like there is a 16.666% decrease in base damage for every +2 PEN. So a -10% step is somewhat fitting. It might not be perfect math-wise, but it's easier to use since 0.1 is short/finite and easy to add/substitute.

> I would perhaps limit the bottom threshold at -70% damage taken instead of -80%. Because having a situation where enemy benefits from x5 damage reduction can result in slow and boring fight. And if there is a situation when your character face tanks at that reduction - could result in "can tank forever" effect.

 

> Personally I rarelly had the under-penetration problem. But that's because I pre-planned my parties. Plus, enchanted weapons quality asap and used +PEN items, food, flanked status and occasionally Body Attunement. So if I will use your mod and load a save, all it will do for me is: just make my party squishier. And from some PoV it could even be a good thing, since it ups the difficulty,..(which would be welcome in late game) but we would need a slight buff to crowd-control speed or accuracy to compensate for that.

> Late game difficulty could actually be partially addressed by lowering hp-per-level gain a bit, because player hp pool increases faster than enemy weapon quality and other bonuses.

> Overpenetration is weird because we can't understand at which PEN-AR it actually penetrates through armor; at which it penetrates the skin; at which it penetrates muscle / breaks bones; and at which it penetrates the body completely. As Boeroer said: "You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...". And I do agree, it looks silly if it would. On the other hand if at PEN == AR, a sabre only cuts the armor and just scratches the skin; an "overpenetration" that cuts skin, muscle, tendons, arteries, makes sense to "deliver" extra damage. That's why I think that different types of weapons could have different overpenetration damage bonus. And different minimum underpenetration malus. Underpenetration from morning star kinda should be more sensible than underpenetration from rapier. All that kinetic energy still hit you. And overpenetration from great sword perhaps should have higher damage bonus than from a fist. On the other hand if a character can overpenetrate with his fist... *thinking...*

Edited by MaxQuest
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https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

 

 

 

There a two versions of mod.

1. Reduces Underpenetration penalties and keeps default Overpenetration bonus (130% dmg at x2 PEN/AR ratio)

Underpenetration values (PEN minus AR):
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

2. Reduces Underpenetration penalties and provides slight Overpenetration bonuses

Underpenetration values (PEN minus AR):
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

Overpenetration values (PEN/AR ratio):
x1.0 = 100% dmg
x1.2 = 105% dmg
x1.4 = 110% dmg
x1.6 = 115% dmg
x1.8 = 120% dmg
x2.0 = 130% dmg (same as default bonus)

 

 

 

Well...we'll see how it goes. Honestly, i don't know if this changes fits the game - needs testing in different situations. One for sure - damage output of all characters will increase.

 

Thanks for this! will test it in the Oathbinder Sactum, don't have any late game saves but with the variety of encounters thought this would be a good start.  Always looking for new ways to get wiped out in these games ... :cat:

Edited by aaronghowell
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“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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Okay!!! So I played the last fight in the Oathbinders Sactum ... it was a lot easier with the mod, so I think on early levels it is just making the game a little easier.  Can't say anything for later levels :(

 

I am guessing that 7 levels of penetration is too many, maybe keep to 4 or 5 - need to find a middle ground.  When I get over level 12 on this game will test it again on some battles ...

 

I will say that with the experience reduction mod set to 25 percent less on PoTD - I have been having a great time - at level 8 right now :)


“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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"I am guessing that 7 levels of penetration is too many, maybe keep to 4 or 5 - need to find a middle ground." - agreed. I will upload such version tomorrow. Just need to think about exact values. Maybe i shall return to first version with 5 levels, -15% dmg on each step with -75% cap.

 

After lvl12 most battles, exept few, are very easy. I hope enemies will deal more damage to player too with this mod.

Edited by Phenomenum

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Keep in mind that 15% reduction is going to have increasing returns. I.e 40% to 25% is actually a 37% reduction

A linear reduction to 25% would actually be as follows.

 

0 - 100

1 - 76

2 - 57

3 - 44

4 - 33

5 - 25

 

Given the recovery penalty I'd suggest medium/heavy armor should always offer some protection, I'm not sure if the coding would allow this as a mod but it'd be pretty cool if different armors had different reductions.

 

Light Armor  

0 - 100

1 - 76

2 - 57

3 - 44

4 - 33

5 - 25

 

 

Medium Armor  

0 - 90

1 - 70

2 - 54

3 - 42

4 - 32

5 - 25

 

 

Full Plate  

0 - 100

1 - 61

2 - 46

3 - 35

4 - 26

5 - 20

 

In regards to over penetration it'd be pretty cool if it could translate to a graze to hit, hit to crit mechanic as this would be a bit more realistic

Edited by Erik Dirk

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"Given the recovery penalty I'd suggest medium/heavy armor should always offer some protection, I'm not sure if the coding would allow this as a mod but it'd be pretty cool if different armors had different reductions." - nope, this is not available.

 

"In regards to over penetration it'd be pretty cool if it could translate to a graze to hit, hit to crit mechanic as this would be a bit more realistic" - can't implement this too(


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Okay, a've added additional two versions (4 versions for now)

 

 

 

There a 4 versions of mod.

1.UnderPEN_window 0-5_v1_default_OverPEN_bonus

0 = 100% dmg
-1 = -15% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -50% dmg
-4 = -65% dmg
-5 = -80% dmg

2.UnderPEN_window 0-5_v2_default_OverPEN_bonus

0 = 100% dmg
-1 = -24% dmg
-2 = -43% dmg
-3 = -56% dmg
-4 = -67% dmg
-5 = -75% dmg

3.UnderPEN_window 0-7_additional_OverPEN_bonuses

0 = 100% dmg
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

Overpenetration values (PEN/AR ratio):
x1.0 = 100% dmg
x1.2 = 105% dmg
x1.4 = 110% dmg
x1.6 = 115% dmg
x1.8 = 120% dmg
x2.0 = 130% dmg (same as default bonus)

4.UnderPEN_window 0-7_default_OverPEN_bonus

0 = 100% dmg
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

 

 

Edited by Phenomenum

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I'm using the version that scales for under and over pen, playing on PotD. I'm not a theorycrafter and this is only my first playthrough, so I can only comment on how it 'feels' rather than offering any detailed mechanical discussion. So far it's been good - the combat remains challenging, some fights may actually be more difficult because enemies get damage bonuses when their pen exceeds but does not double my AR. On the flipside, I get a damage bonus when that situation is reversed. I like that abilities that raise my AR by a small amount are now always useful instead of only having an effect if they cause my AR to hit the threshold points.

 

I haven't got high AR armours yet, so right now enemy pen is more likely to exceed my AR. Once I do get better armour, it's possible that the mod will make things easier compared to the vanilla position. I don't know what the typical difference is between enemy pen and my AR in later stages of the game.

Edited by Rooksx

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cool... I was interested in scaling armor penalties and ideally no over pen bonus at all (cause it makes no sense to me).

I am thinking of using the second version with 5 iterations

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So I'm also playing with Deadly Deadfire (Lite). The Oathbinder Sanctum fight is very difficult with a level 9 party. The overpen scaling means that the enemy rogues always get an ovepen bonus. Deadly Deadfire's level scaling compounds that as their accuracy is so high that they crit a lot, which leads to them hitting the max 30% overpen bonus. The more fragile members of my party do not live long under these conditions.

Generally speaking, the overscaling pen has made me rethink party composition. I don't have a proper tank, and I think I need one. Building Serafen as a dual-wielding DPS Witch has been problematic because he just takes too much damage. I don't think there's much space for DPS builds with weak defences, at least not until you get enchanted heavy armour.

Edited by Rooksx

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After countless sleepless night in thoughts about PENETRATION i've changed my mod. But let's start from far - i want to explain what downsides of vanilla system was fixed.

There is a several scenarios in vanilla that looks...far from perfect (in my opinion, of course).

#1. Balanced scenario, when Attacker's PEN = Defender's AR (which is not often). Attack deals listed damage (good for Attacker), but Defender's armor not working (at this moment you thinking: "What for this armor needed?!") In fact, Armor just protect you from possible Overpenetration bonus damage.

Resolution: I remember PoE 1 system (which was far from perfect anyway), when armor always give some protection. So i've changed PEN=AR Damage - now attack deals only 75% damage (-25% Damage penaly). Even the Light Armor will reduce some damage and protect Defender from attack. Good for Defender, bad for Attacker you say, but...

#2. Attacker's PEN exeeds Defender's AR by 1 or 2 points or whole bunch of points, but less than x2 (13,5 Pen vs 7 AR etc.) In vanilla game Attacker gains nothing and armor still don't give any protection to Defender. Literally, there 2 breakpoints – PEN = AR and PEN = x2 AR – everything between gives nothing to both Defender and Attacker.

Resolution: Since game counts OVERPEN as PEN/AR ratio, i've added progressive damage boost with 5% step. This how it looks:

(PEN/AR ratio)
x1.0 = 75% dmg (PEN = AR)
x1.2 = 80% dmg
x1.4 = 85% dmg
x1.6 = 90% dmg
x1.8 = 95% dmg
x2.0 = 100% dmg (PEN = x2 AR)

#3 (implies from #2). Bonus Damage from OVERPEN no longer exist. On Obsidian forums people often wondering, what is "Overpenetration" - probably, when your sword drivening through enemy stomach... up to the hilt.

So, Attacker will deal full damage only when his PEN exeeds Defender's AR x2 or more. On one side, Attacker will be rewarded for every PEN point, on the other side Defender still receive some protection from armor, which reduces with higher Attacker's Penetration, so EVERY AR point willbe useful. Pure and simple.
Overall damage output for all charachers will be slightly reduced, but not drastically.

#4. Vanilla UNDERPEN damage penalties was changed. UNDERPEN 'window' slightly increased. When Attacker's PEN less than Defender's AR, Attacker receivess additional -10% Damage penalty per point under the target's Armor, Max -75% at 5 points).

TOTAL VALUES:

PEN > AR (PEN/AR ratio):
x2.0 = 100% dmg (vanilla: 130%)
x1.8 = -5%    dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.6 = -10%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.4 = -15%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.2 = -20%  dmg(vanilla: 100%)
x1.0 = -25%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)

PEN < AR
-1 PEN: -35% dmg (vanilla: -25%)
-2 PEN: -45% dmg (vanilla: -50%)
-3 PEN: -55% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-4 PEN: -65% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-5 PEN: -75% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

So, this variant of Penetration system have several goals:
Light Armor and clothing will be useful, even on POtD, and give protection not only from OverPen +30% bonus damage
Attacker gains reward for every Penetration point that exeeds Defender's AR
Every AR point for Defender will be useful and give additional protection even when Attacker's Pen exeeds AR by 1 or 2 points
More smooth UnderPenetration damage penalty progression

Cyclopedia entries and tooltips were also changed.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

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So I tried the Oathbinder Sanctum fight again with this new version of the mod. Managed to beat it this time, although that could partly be due to finding a chokepoint on the map. The fight took a long time as damage output from everyone was obviously a lot lower, plus they've got a bunch of healers. I think overall it was easier than with the underpen/overpen scaling version of the mod because the enemy isn't getting overpen bonuses all the time, so can't kill me so quickly. I guess the main question is: who benefits more from overall lower damage - the player or enemy mobs? I do wonder if this mod could make high health characters too strong. 

Edited by Rooksx

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After countless sleepless night in thoughts about PENETRATION i've changed my mod. But let's start from far - i want to explain what downsides of vanilla system was fixed.

 

There is a several scenarios in vanilla that looks...far from perfect (in my opinion, of course).

 

#1. Balanced scenario, when Attacker's PEN = Defender's AR (which is not often). Attack deals listed damage (good for Attacker), but Defender's armor not working (at this moment you thinking: "What for this armor needed?!") In fact, Armor just protect you from possible Overpenetration bonus damage.

 

Resolution: I remember PoE 1 system (which was far from perfect anyway), when armor always give some protection. So i've changed PEN=AR Damage - now attack deals only 75% damage (-25% Damage penaly). Even the Light Armor will reduce some damage and protect Defender from attack. Good for Defender, bad for Attacker you say, but...

 

#2. Attacker's PEN exeeds Defender's AR by 1 or 2 points or whole bunch of points, but less than x2 (13,5 Pen vs 7 AR etc.) In vanilla game Attacker gains nothing and armor still don't give any protection to Defender. Literally, there 2 breakpoints – PEN = AR and PEN = x2 AR – everything between gives nothing to both Defender and Attacker.

 

Resolution: Since game counts OVERPEN as PEN/AR ratio, i've added progressive damage boost with 5% step. This how it looks:

 

(PEN/AR ratio)

x1.0 = 75% dmg (PEN = AR)

x1.2 = 80% dmg

x1.4 = 85% dmg

x1.6 = 90% dmg

x1.8 = 95% dmg

x2.0 = 100% dmg (PEN = x2 AR)

 

#3 (implies from #2). Bonus Damage from OVERPEN no longer exist. On Obsidian forums people often wondering, what is "Overpenetration" - probably, when your sword drivening through enemy stomach... up to the hilt.

 

So, Attacker will deal full damage only when his PEN exeeds Defender's AR x2 or more. On one side, Attacker will be rewarded for every PEN point, on the other side Defender still receive some protection from armor, which reduces with higher Attacker's Penetration, so EVERY AR point willbe useful. Pure and simple.

Overall damage output for all charachers will be slightly reduced, but not drastically.

 

#4. Vanilla UNDERPEN damage penalties was changed. UNDERPEN 'window' slightly increased. When Attacker's PEN less than Defender's AR, Attacker receivess additional -10% Damage penalty per point under the target's Armor, Max -75% at 5 points).

 

TOTAL VALUES:

 

PEN > AR (PEN/AR ratio):

x2.0 = 100% dmg (vanilla: 130%)

x1.8 = -5% dmg (vanilla: 100%)

x1.6 = -10% dmg (vanilla: 100%)

x1.4 = -15% dmg (vanilla: 100%)

x1.2 = -20% dmg(vanilla: 100%)

x1.0 = -25% dmg (vanilla: 100%)

 

PEN < AR

-1 PEN: -35% dmg (vanilla: -25%)

-2 PEN: -45% dmg (vanilla: -50%)

-3 PEN: -55% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

-4 PEN: -65% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

-5 PEN: -75% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

 

So, this variant of Penetration system have several goals:

Light Armor and clothing will be useful, even on POtD, and give protection not only from OverPen +30% bonus damage

Attacker gains reward for every Penetration point that exeeds Defender's AR

Every AR point for Defender will be useful and give additional protection even when Attacker's Pen exeeds AR by 1 or 2 points

More smooth UnderPenetration damage penalty progression

 

Cyclopedia entries and tooltips were also changed.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

Personally I liked your previous version of over\underpen. I get the logic behind this new setting, but I think some kind of bonus for overpen feels right from a game perspective. Having to double the enemies armor just to get "normal" damage feels like a nerf really.

 

Maybe 125% at 2.0 overpen, reducing by 5% each .2 down to 100% at 1.0. Could do the same for each step of underpen too.

 

Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?


"As the murderhobo mantra goes: 'If you can't kill it, steal it.'" - Prince of Lies

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So I tried the Oathbinder Sanctum fight again with this new version of the mod. Managed to beat it this time, although that could partly be due to finding a chokepoint on the map. The fight took a long time as damage output from everyone was obviously a lot lower, plus they've got a bunch of healers. I think overall it was easier than with the underpen/overpen scaling version of the mod because the enemy isn't getting overpen bonuses all the time, so can't kill me so quickly. I guess the main question is: who benefits more from overall lower damage - the player or enemy mobs? I do wonder if this mod could make high health characters too strong. 

 

I'm not dividing charachers like this: 'player' and 'enemies'. Both sides have benefits as you can see from description. Remember that enemies use the same rules and now also have additional protection. In fact, this version is very similar with OverPen bonus version - i just shifted PEN=AR point to make it more balanced in terms of armor efficiency and to make armor protection similar to PoE 1. In PoE 1 you have almost never deal 100% (only with weapons with DR reduction and Raw damage).

About overall damage output - without OverPen +30% bonus damage overall dmg output lower by 10-15%, becose not you neither enemies don't constantly Overpenetrate each other (actually im some fights this bonus became very situational).

 

Still, you can use old version if you like it more :)

Edited by Phenomenum

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"Personally I liked your previous version of over\underpen. I get the logic behind this new setting, but I think some kind of bonus for overpen feels right from a game perspective. Having to double the enemies armor just to get "normal" damage feels like a nerf really.

Maybe 125% at 2.0 overpen, reducing by 5% each .2 down to 100% at 1.0. Could do the same for each step of underpen too.

Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?"

 

1. Old version still aviable for downloading, becose i understand that different peoples might have different tastes. So if you like old version, just use it. :)

2. "Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?" - I don't know, it's in the game code. You better ask Obsidian about it.

Edited by Phenomenum

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I've done with testing, everythigs seems work fine. So i've uploaded 2.1 version.

 

More precise damage calculation (10 steps)

Increased PEN bonus of weapons modals (+2 > +3) to better match wider UnderPen 'window'.
Reduced -N% incoming damage effects from food and some items, becose of increased armor protection.


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My general take on the penetration system is that it's more a difficulty level issue than a problem with the system itself. 

 

There was a brief window where it worked "well" -- after beta, before PotD was upscaled in difficulty, most fights had challenging Pen/AR but if you used buffs and debuffs appropriately you could get around the system and make it work for you.

 

PotD definitely needed the upscaling in difficulty but they changed lots of things at once, and one of the things they changed was increasing enemy AR dramatically across the board.

Net result, you now had to engineer every possible Penetration buff in a stack just to scratch anything, you'd often still underpenetrate or graze even after stacking every possible armor debuff, and the practical result was that the optimal approach was to bypass the AR/Pen system entirely via things like the combusting wounds / mind blades combo that just stack huge amounts of tiny damage dot's until it doesn't matter whether you're penetrating or not.

 

Problem is the fix for that would be to go through the whole game and renorm all the AR levels encounter by encounter back down again to sane levels -- basically, AR shouldn't scale with difficulty level the way other stats do.

 

All the other buffs and debuffs are a lot more granular but there's only so many points the AR scale can move on and the current PotD values are an overcorrection to the point of annoyance. I mean, I literally plan out my parties beforehand with a spreadsheet to make sure I get every available bonus and damage type and so forth and I still routinely run into PotD enemies where I'm better off just CW+MB than I am even attempting to bother to reduce their AR to manageable levels. 

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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"Problem is the fix for that would be to go through the whole game and renorm all the AR levels encounter by encounter back down again to sane levels -- basically, AR shouldn't scale with difficulty level the way other stats do." - i'm totally agree with you, but you know: it will never happen.

 

On the other side, i've tried just to remove POtD AR&PEN buffs from enemies and this make game far easier, so this is not work, becose problem is more complex. Also Armor still don't work in this case.

Edited by Phenomenum

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}

Edited by Phenomenum

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}

 

 

Well then, https://i.imgur.com/05QX74O.jpg 

 

At the risk of an overly simplistic solution, I'd suggest trying out just setting the armor and penetration bonuses to the same as they are on Veteran instead. 

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}

 

 

Well then, https://i.imgur.com/05QX74O.jpg 

 

At the risk of an overly simplistic solution, I'd suggest trying out just setting the armor and penetration bonuses to the same as they are on Veteran instead. 

 

 

It solves almost nothing, as i said before (i've tried of course): Penetration values still clutched between two points, armor still didn't work


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