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Armor penetration is a pain in the ass. Stacking armor is OP.

Armor Armor penetration

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#81
Erik Dirk

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Keep in mind that 15% reduction is going to have increasing returns. I.e 40% to 25% is actually a 37% reduction

A linear reduction to 25% would actually be as follows.

 

0 - 100

1 - 76

2 - 57

3 - 44

4 - 33

5 - 25

 

Given the recovery penalty I'd suggest medium/heavy armor should always offer some protection, I'm not sure if the coding would allow this as a mod but it'd be pretty cool if different armors had different reductions.

 

Light Armor  

0 - 100

1 - 76

2 - 57

3 - 44

4 - 33

5 - 25

 

 

Medium Armor  

0 - 90

1 - 70

2 - 54

3 - 42

4 - 32

5 - 25

 

 

Full Plate  

0 - 100

1 - 61

2 - 46

3 - 35

4 - 26

5 - 20

 

In regards to over penetration it'd be pretty cool if it could translate to a graze to hit, hit to crit mechanic as this would be a bit more realistic


Edited by Erik Dirk, 09 October 2018 - 04:23 AM.


#82
Phenomenum

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"Given the recovery penalty I'd suggest medium/heavy armor should always offer some protection, I'm not sure if the coding would allow this as a mod but it'd be pretty cool if different armors had different reductions." - nope, this is not available.

 

"In regards to over penetration it'd be pretty cool if it could translate to a graze to hit, hit to crit mechanic as this would be a bit more realistic" - can't implement this too(



#83
Phenomenum

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Okay, a've added additional two versions (4 versions for now)

 

Spoiler

Edited by Phenomenum, 09 October 2018 - 06:22 AM.


#84
Taurus

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Will try your mod sir!



#85
Ancelor

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has anyone who tried this mod have any comments?

I'm thinking of getting one of the versions



#86
Rooksx

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I'm using the version that scales for under and over pen, playing on PotD. I'm not a theorycrafter and this is only my first playthrough, so I can only comment on how it 'feels' rather than offering any detailed mechanical discussion. So far it's been good - the combat remains challenging, some fights may actually be more difficult because enemies get damage bonuses when their pen exceeds but does not double my AR. On the flipside, I get a damage bonus when that situation is reversed. I like that abilities that raise my AR by a small amount are now always useful instead of only having an effect if they cause my AR to hit the threshold points.

I haven't got high AR armours yet, so right now enemy pen is more likely to exceed my AR. Once I do get better armour, it's possible that the mod will make things easier compared to the vanilla position. I don't know what the typical difference is between enemy pen and my AR in later stages of the game.

Edited by Rooksx, 13 January 2019 - 03:40 AM.


#87
Ancelor

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cool... I was interested in scaling armor penalties and ideally no over pen bonus at all (cause it makes no sense to me).

I am thinking of using the second version with 5 iterations



#88
Rooksx

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So I'm also playing with Deadly Deadfire (Lite). The Oathbinder Sanctum fight is very difficult with a level 9 party. The overpen scaling means that the enemy rogues always get an ovepen bonus. Deadly Deadfire's level scaling compounds that as their accuracy is so high that they crit a lot, which leads to them hitting the max 30% overpen bonus. The more fragile members of my party do not live long under these conditions.

Generally speaking, the overscaling pen has made me rethink party composition. I don't have a proper tank, and I think I need one. Building Serafen as a dual-wielding DPS Witch has been problematic because he just takes too much damage. I don't think there's much space for DPS builds with weak defences, at least not until you get enchanted heavy armour.


Edited by Rooksx, 27 January 2019 - 03:40 AM.


#89
Phenomenum

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After countless sleepless night in thoughts about PENETRATION i've changed my mod. But let's start from far - i want to explain what downsides of vanilla system was fixed.

There is a several scenarios in vanilla that looks...far from perfect (in my opinion, of course).

#1. Balanced scenario, when Attacker's PEN = Defender's AR (which is not often). Attack deals listed damage (good for Attacker), but Defender's armor not working (at this moment you thinking: "What for this armor needed?!") In fact, Armor just protect you from possible Overpenetration bonus damage.

Resolution: I remember PoE 1 system (which was far from perfect anyway), when armor always give some protection. So i've changed PEN=AR Damage - now attack deals only 75% damage (-25% Damage penaly). Even the Light Armor will reduce some damage and protect Defender from attack. Good for Defender, bad for Attacker you say, but...

#2. Attacker's PEN exeeds Defender's AR by 1 or 2 points or whole bunch of points, but less than x2 (13,5 Pen vs 7 AR etc.) In vanilla game Attacker gains nothing and armor still don't give any protection to Defender. Literally, there 2 breakpoints – PEN = AR and PEN = x2 AR – everything between gives nothing to both Defender and Attacker.

Resolution: Since game counts OVERPEN as PEN/AR ratio, i've added progressive damage boost with 5% step. This how it looks:

(PEN/AR ratio)
x1.0 = 75% dmg (PEN = AR)
x1.2 = 80% dmg
x1.4 = 85% dmg
x1.6 = 90% dmg
x1.8 = 95% dmg
x2.0 = 100% dmg (PEN = x2 AR)

#3 (implies from #2). Bonus Damage from OVERPEN no longer exist. On Obsidian forums people often wondering, what is "Overpenetration" - probably, when your sword drivening through enemy stomach... up to the hilt.

So, Attacker will deal full damage only when his PEN exeeds Defender's AR x2 or more. On one side, Attacker will be rewarded for every PEN point, on the other side Defender still receive some protection from armor, which reduces with higher Attacker's Penetration, so EVERY AR point willbe useful. Pure and simple.
Overall damage output for all charachers will be slightly reduced, but not drastically.

#4. Vanilla UNDERPEN damage penalties was changed. UNDERPEN 'window' slightly increased. When Attacker's PEN less than Defender's AR, Attacker receivess additional -10% Damage penalty per point under the target's Armor, Max -75% at 5 points).

TOTAL VALUES:

PEN > AR (PEN/AR ratio):
x2.0 = 100% dmg (vanilla: 130%)
x1.8 = -5%    dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.6 = -10%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.4 = -15%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.2 = -20%  dmg(vanilla: 100%)
x1.0 = -25%  dmg (vanilla: 100%)

PEN < AR
-1 PEN: -35% dmg (vanilla: -25%)
-2 PEN: -45% dmg (vanilla: -50%)
-3 PEN: -55% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-4 PEN: -65% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-5 PEN: -75% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

So, this variant of Penetration system have several goals:
Light Armor and clothing will be useful, even on POtD, and give protection not only from OverPen +30% bonus damage
Attacker gains reward for every Penetration point that exeeds Defender's AR
Every AR point for Defender will be useful and give additional protection even when Attacker's Pen exeeds AR by 1 or 2 points
More smooth UnderPenetration damage penalty progression

Cyclopedia entries and tooltips were also changed.

 

https://www.nexusmod...rnity2/mods/241


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#90
Rooksx

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So I tried the Oathbinder Sanctum fight again with this new version of the mod. Managed to beat it this time, although that could partly be due to finding a chokepoint on the map. The fight took a long time as damage output from everyone was obviously a lot lower, plus they've got a bunch of healers. I think overall it was easier than with the underpen/overpen scaling version of the mod because the enemy isn't getting overpen bonuses all the time, so can't kill me so quickly. I guess the main question is: who benefits more from overall lower damage - the player or enemy mobs? I do wonder if this mod could make high health characters too strong. 


Edited by Rooksx, 29 January 2019 - 03:55 PM.


#91
protopersona

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After countless sleepless night in thoughts about PENETRATION i've changed my mod. But let's start from far - i want to explain what downsides of vanilla system was fixed.

There is a several scenarios in vanilla that looks...far from perfect (in my opinion, of course).

#1. Balanced scenario, when Attacker's PEN = Defender's AR (which is not often). Attack deals listed damage (good for Attacker), but Defender's armor not working (at this moment you thinking: "What for this armor needed?!") In fact, Armor just protect you from possible Overpenetration bonus damage.

Resolution: I remember PoE 1 system (which was far from perfect anyway), when armor always give some protection. So i've changed PEN=AR Damage - now attack deals only 75% damage (-25% Damage penaly). Even the Light Armor will reduce some damage and protect Defender from attack. Good for Defender, bad for Attacker you say, but...

#2. Attacker's PEN exeeds Defender's AR by 1 or 2 points or whole bunch of points, but less than x2 (13,5 Pen vs 7 AR etc.) In vanilla game Attacker gains nothing and armor still don't give any protection to Defender. Literally, there 2 breakpoints – PEN = AR and PEN = x2 AR – everything between gives nothing to both Defender and Attacker.

Resolution: Since game counts OVERPEN as PEN/AR ratio, i've added progressive damage boost with 5% step. This how it looks:

(PEN/AR ratio)
x1.0 = 75% dmg (PEN = AR)
x1.2 = 80% dmg
x1.4 = 85% dmg
x1.6 = 90% dmg
x1.8 = 95% dmg
x2.0 = 100% dmg (PEN = x2 AR)

#3 (implies from #2). Bonus Damage from OVERPEN no longer exist. On Obsidian forums people often wondering, what is "Overpenetration" - probably, when your sword drivening through enemy stomach... up to the hilt.

So, Attacker will deal full damage only when his PEN exeeds Defender's AR x2 or more. On one side, Attacker will be rewarded for every PEN point, on the other side Defender still receive some protection from armor, which reduces with higher Attacker's Penetration, so EVERY AR point willbe useful. Pure and simple.
Overall damage output for all charachers will be slightly reduced, but not drastically.

#4. Vanilla UNDERPEN damage penalties was changed. UNDERPEN 'window' slightly increased. When Attacker's PEN less than Defender's AR, Attacker receivess additional -10% Damage penalty per point under the target's Armor, Max -75% at 5 points).

TOTAL VALUES:

PEN > AR (PEN/AR ratio):
x2.0 = 100% dmg (vanilla: 130%)
x1.8 = -5% dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.6 = -10% dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.4 = -15% dmg (vanilla: 100%)
x1.2 = -20% dmg(vanilla: 100%)
x1.0 = -25% dmg (vanilla: 100%)

PEN < AR
-1 PEN: -35% dmg (vanilla: -25%)
-2 PEN: -45% dmg (vanilla: -50%)
-3 PEN: -55% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-4 PEN: -65% dmg (vanilla: -75%)
-5 PEN: -75% dmg (vanilla: -75%)

So, this variant of Penetration system have several goals:
Light Armor and clothing will be useful, even on POtD, and give protection not only from OverPen +30% bonus damage
Attacker gains reward for every Penetration point that exeeds Defender's AR
Every AR point for Defender will be useful and give additional protection even when Attacker's Pen exeeds AR by 1 or 2 points
More smooth UnderPenetration damage penalty progression

Cyclopedia entries and tooltips were also changed.

https://www.nexusmod...rnity2/mods/241


Personally I liked your previous version of over\underpen. I get the logic behind this new setting, but I think some kind of bonus for overpen feels right from a game perspective. Having to double the enemies armor just to get "normal" damage feels like a nerf really.

Maybe 125% at 2.0 overpen, reducing by 5% each .2 down to 100% at 1.0. Could do the same for each step of underpen too.

Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?

#92
Phenomenum

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So I tried the Oathbinder Sanctum fight again with this new version of the mod. Managed to beat it this time, although that could partly be due to finding a chokepoint on the map. The fight took a long time as damage output from everyone was obviously a lot lower, plus they've got a bunch of healers. I think overall it was easier than with the underpen/overpen scaling version of the mod because the enemy isn't getting overpen bonuses all the time, so can't kill me so quickly. I guess the main question is: who benefits more from overall lower damage - the player or enemy mobs? I do wonder if this mod could make high health characters too strong. 

 

I'm not dividing charachers like this: 'player' and 'enemies'. Both sides have benefits as you can see from description. Remember that enemies use the same rules and now also have additional protection. In fact, this version is very similar with OverPen bonus version - i just shifted PEN=AR point to make it more balanced in terms of armor efficiency and to make armor protection similar to PoE 1. In PoE 1 you have almost never deal 100% (only with weapons with DR reduction and Raw damage).

About overall damage output - without OverPen +30% bonus damage overall dmg output lower by 10-15%, becose not you neither enemies don't constantly Overpenetrate each other (actually im some fights this bonus became very situational).

 

Still, you can use old version if you like it more :)


Edited by Phenomenum, 30 January 2019 - 02:03 AM.


#93
Phenomenum

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"Personally I liked your previous version of over\underpen. I get the logic behind this new setting, but I think some kind of bonus for overpen feels right from a game perspective. Having to double the enemies armor just to get "normal" damage feels like a nerf really.

Maybe 125% at 2.0 overpen, reducing by 5% each .2 down to 100% at 1.0. Could do the same for each step of underpen too.

Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?"

 

1. Old version still aviable for downloading, becose i understand that different peoples might have different tastes. So if you like old version, just use it. :)

2. "Is there a reason overpen is a ratio but underpen is integers?" - I don't know, it's in the game code. You better ask Obsidian about it.


Edited by Phenomenum, 30 January 2019 - 02:04 AM.


#94
Phenomenum

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I've done with testing, everythigs seems work fine. So i've uploaded 2.1 version.

 

More precise damage calculation (10 steps)

Increased PEN bonus of weapons modals (+2 > +3) to better match wider UnderPen 'window'.
Reduced -N% incoming damage effects from food and some items, becose of increased armor protection.



#95
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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My general take on the penetration system is that it's more a difficulty level issue than a problem with the system itself. 

 

There was a brief window where it worked "well" -- after beta, before PotD was upscaled in difficulty, most fights had challenging Pen/AR but if you used buffs and debuffs appropriately you could get around the system and make it work for you.

 

PotD definitely needed the upscaling in difficulty but they changed lots of things at once, and one of the things they changed was increasing enemy AR dramatically across the board.

Net result, you now had to engineer every possible Penetration buff in a stack just to scratch anything, you'd often still underpenetrate or graze even after stacking every possible armor debuff, and the practical result was that the optimal approach was to bypass the AR/Pen system entirely via things like the combusting wounds / mind blades combo that just stack huge amounts of tiny damage dot's until it doesn't matter whether you're penetrating or not.

 

Problem is the fix for that would be to go through the whole game and renorm all the AR levels encounter by encounter back down again to sane levels -- basically, AR shouldn't scale with difficulty level the way other stats do.

 

All the other buffs and debuffs are a lot more granular but there's only so many points the AR scale can move on and the current PotD values are an overcorrection to the point of annoyance. I mean, I literally plan out my parties beforehand with a spreadsheet to make sure I get every available bonus and damage type and so forth and I still routinely run into PotD enemies where I'm better off just CW+MB than I am even attempting to bother to reduce their AR to manageable levels. 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 30 January 2019 - 08:05 AM.

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#96
Phenomenum

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"Problem is the fix for that would be to go through the whole game and renorm all the AR levels encounter by encounter back down again to sane levels -- basically, AR shouldn't scale with difficulty level the way other stats do." - i'm totally agree with you, but you know: it will never happen.

 

On the other side, i've tried just to remove POtD AR&PEN buffs from enemies and this make game far easier, so this is not work, becose problem is more complex. Also Armor still don't work in this case.


Edited by Phenomenum, 30 January 2019 - 08:47 AM.


#97
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 



#98
Phenomenum

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}


Edited by Phenomenum, 30 January 2019 - 09:14 AM.


#99
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}

 

 

Well then, https://i.imgur.com/05QX74O.jpg 

 

At the risk of an overly simplistic solution, I'd suggest trying out just setting the armor and penetration bonuses to the same as they are on Veteran instead. 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 30 January 2019 - 09:25 AM.

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#100
Phenomenum

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How does the PotD adjustment work? Is everything hand-tweaked or is it an across the board thing like "+2 all AR values" that could be changed by changing the modifier?

 

The other part of this is it really hurts ranger pets because they either can't keep up on AR or they can't keep up on PEN or both, they need to scale like the NPCs do. 

 

{"Difficulty":"PathOfTheDamned","HealthMultiplier":1.25,"AccuracyBonus":15,"DefenseBonus":15,"ArmorBonus":2,"PenetrationBonus":2,"LevelMultiplier":1,

"RecoveryTimeMultiplier":1,"DisengagementAccuracyBonus":0,"HostileEffectDurationMultiplier":1}

 

 

Well then, https://i.imgur.com/05QX74O.jpg 

 

At the risk of an overly simplistic solution, I'd suggest trying out just setting the armor and penetration bonuses to the same as they are on Veteran instead. 

 

 

It solves almost nothing, as i said before (i've tried of course): Penetration values still clutched between two points, armor still didn't work







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