Armor penetration is a pain in the ass. Stacking armor is OP.

[JerekKruger]

Personally I'd go with 5% per under and over penetration with a lower cap of 20% (like on PoE1) at -16 Pen, and an upper cap of 130% at +6. To be honest though this would either need testing it a rebalancing of enemy armour values.

 

Also great work. This is precisely what I was hoping would be the case.

Edited October 4, 2018 by JerekKruger

[Phenomenum]

Personally I'd go with 5% per under and over penetration with a lower cap of 20% (like on PoE1) at -16 Pen, and an upper cap of 130% at +6. To be honest though this would either need testing it a rebalancing of enemy armour values.

Also great work. This is precisely what I was hoping would be the case.

You should notice that ingame math for overPen don't operate flat numbers - only Pen/AR ratio - so there is no value corresponding to +6 overPen.

I can raise dmg multiplier to any % when Pen/AR ratio = x2 or x3. Maybe make sense to do non linear progression:

 

Pen/AR ratio (overpen):

 

x1.0 = +0% (no damage modifiers)

x1.2 = +10% dmg (+10%)

x1.4 = + 25% dmg (+15%)

x1.6 = +45% dmg (+20%)

x1.8 = + 70% dmg (+25%)

x2 = +100% dmg (+30%)

 

This is just an example, all values exaggerated

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[karnor00]

UnderPEN:

-1 = -15% damage

-2 = -30% damage

-3 = -45% damage

-4 = -60% damage

-5 or more = -75% damage

 

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.

This would be a step in the right direction to be sure as it spreads the effective Armor/penetration range to 5 points rather than just 3. But still a kinda small window?

 

So maybe 10% per point of underpenetration might work better, capped at say 20% would give an 8 point effective range of useful values.

 

I think 5% per point of underpenetration. might not be enough. It would give a nice big 16 point window but might make armor a bit too weak as a stat (i.e. too hard to get enough armor to really make a difference.

 

Im less worried about overpenetration as I think this is kind of okay as is. It’s a fairly small bonus which feels about right - making the overpenetration bonus too large would really cripple low armor builds.

[Phenomenum]

I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.  

 

Got it. Overpen mixing with crit mechanic which gives x1.5 PEN so i can just leave it as is.

Any tips about exact values? Should i correct values considering "double inversion"?

 

 

 

UnderPEN:

-1 = -15% damage

-2 = -30% damage

-3 = -45% damage

-4 = -60% damage

-5 or more = -75% damage

 

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.

This would be a step in the right direction to be sure as it spreads the effective Armor/penetration range to 5 points rather than just 3. But still a kinda small window?

 

So maybe 10% per point of underpenetration might work better, capped at say 20% would give an 8 point effective range of useful values.

 

I think 5% per point of underpenetration. might not be enough. It would give a nice big 16 point window but might make armor a bit too weak as a stat (i.e. too hard to get enough armor to really make a difference.

 

Im less worried about overpenetration as I think this is kind of okay as is. It’s a fairly small bonus which feels about right - making the overpenetration bonus too large would really cripple low armor builds.

 

 

5% or 10% will be wrong move i think, becose armor will not protect anyone in this case.

Imagine: your AR=10 and enemy PEN=8 - when enemy attacks you he will receive only 20% damage penalty. And for classes which able to stack several damage bonuses (Rogues, Siphers, etc) all armor will be neglitable.

 

UnderPEN penalty should still significant.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phenomenum

[JerekKruger]

I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.

Given I basically want to get as close to PoE1's system that would work fine. I'm mostly glad that this method is available. I was worried there'd be a hard coded cap of two break points, but the ability to add extra is great.

[Phenomenum]

Personally, i would add OverPEN values:

 

PEN/AR Ratio:

x1.2 - 105% dmg

x1.4 - 110% dmg

x1.6 - 115% dmg

x1.8 - 120% dmg

x2.0 - 130% dmg

 

Becose one break point leaves any other OverPEN values, exept double OverPEN, unrewarded. Basically, you can hit the enemy with 10 AR and if your PEN will be 19,5 you don't receive any bonus dmg. But if you add 0,5 more PEN to value 20, you will receive +30% bonus dmg. It's looks...weird.

 

I don't like any hard breakpoints like this.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

I would like to see more suggestions and make a test version tomorrow (if one of the forum members consider to help me;)

[AndreaColombo]

We need a MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

We need a MaxQuest

Not a MaxQuest, the MaxQuest!

[hilfazer]

I personally would only create values for underpenetration. Overpenetration giving bonus dmg is a bit silly in my opinion.

 

You usually don't do more damage if your spear sticks out 10 cm of the back of your opponent - compared to the case where it sticks out 5 cm...

 

So if your armor got penetrated 100% then your weapon can do its highest dmg and that should be it.  

 

That would mean... bohemian earspoon makes sense!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_earspoon

 

 

But Obsidian doesn't want us to use common sense and sold us the idea of overpenetration. Obsidian influence is very strong seeing how many users want overpen to stay and even expand it.

[Phenomenum]

Em...if you have much more PEN than enemy's AR this is should be rewarded somehow.

In PoE 1, if you have much more damage than enemy's DR it was rewarded in kind of increased damage dealt. PoE 2 grants similar reward through OverPEN.

 

All and all, PoE never pretended to be a realistic medieval combat simulator

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phenomenum

[bringingyouthefuture]

Tested it just now - works fine.

 

Now i need a numbers.

 

For now, test verion contains these changes:

 

OverPEN:

x1.3 = +10% damage

x1.6 = +20% damage

x2 = +30% damage

 

UnderPEN:

-1 = -15% damage

-2 = -30% damage

-3 = -45% damage

-4 = -60% damage

-5 or more = -75% damage

 

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.

 

If I understand it correctly the formula is this (not sure where it came from just been kind of following this in the forums - someone else can chime in if this is correct):

 

"for each negative modifier, the game computes [ mod/(1+mod) ]. Let's call that result N(mod)" <thanks @Matt71> so for -15% it would look like this:

 

-0.15/(1 + -0.15) = -17% (assuming the game rounds down) off the damage you do

 

30%

-0.3/(1 + -0.30) = - 42%

 

45%

-0.45/(1 + -0.45) = -81%

 

60%

-0.6/(1 + -0.6) = -150 %

 

Which could be cool as the final product is a mix of positives and negatives, you can see the rest of Matt71's post here:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/105672-damage-modifiers-and-the-might-attribute/?hl=%2Bdouble+%2Binversion&do=findComment&comment=2097539

 

Honestly, I have no idea depending on the character but it definitely reduces the effectiveness of penetration in theory which is good??

AH

 

EDIT:  What would this mean for bosses, would they one shot us like we one shot enemies hehe could be either impossible or really fun lol - I can't get the idea out of my head that if I backstab someone with 4 under PEN that it bounces mostly off there armor and I basically bruise them ... go figure ....

 

Also - this post here I should say is where the numbers came from (@ THE MaxQuest), been awhile forgot about this ...

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98679-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery-time-reload-time/

Edited October 5, 2018 by aaronghowell

[Phenomenum]

Thank you for math!

"EDIT:  What would this mean for bosses, would they one shot us like we one shot enemies hehe could be either impossible or really fun lol - I can't get the idea out of my head that if I backstab someone with 4 under PEN that it bounces mostly off there armor and I basically bruise them ... go figure ...." - i'm worry about this too. With wider "damage window" everyone will deal more damage.

 

Maybe make sence to test it without "double inversion" first, becose correct numbers will lead to much more damage output for every characher - it might ruin the squishy game balance.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Phenomenum

[Skie Nightfall]

In short, I'd say I prefer the Armor/DR system of PoE1 over Deadfire.

[Ancelor]

how close is the community to providing a mod that makes this mechanic meaningful I wonder?

[Phenomenum]

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

 

 

 

There a two versions of mod.

1. Reduces Underpenetration penalties and keeps default Overpenetration bonus (130% dmg at x2 PEN/AR ratio)

Underpenetration values (PEN minus AR):
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

2. Reduces Underpenetration penalties and provides slight Overpenetration bonuses

Underpenetration values (PEN minus AR):
-1 = -20% dmg
-2 = -30% dmg
-3 = -40% dmg
-4 = -50% dmg
-5 = -60% dmg
-6 = -70% dmg
-7 = -80% dmg

Overpenetration values (PEN/AR ratio):
x1.0 = 100% dmg
x1.2 = 105% dmg
x1.4 = 110% dmg
x1.6 = 115% dmg
x1.8 = 120% dmg
x2.0 = 130% dmg (same as default bonus)

 

 

 

Well...we'll see how it goes. Honestly, i don't know if this changes fits the game - needs testing in different situations. One for sure - damage output of all characters will increase.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Phenomenum

[MaxQuest]

 

We need a MaxQuest

Not a MaxQuest, the MaxQuest!

 

Is that.. THE Iron Bull reference?   

 

Tested it just now - works fine.

 

Now i need a numbers.

 

For now, test verion contains these changes:

 

OverPEN:

x1.3 = +10% damage

x1.6 = +20% damage

x2 = +30% damage

 

UnderPEN:

-1 = -15% damage

-2 = -30% damage

-3 = -45% damage

-4 = -60% damage

-5 or more = -75% damage

 

Any suggestions? And i can write correct damage multipliers according "double inversion" - just give me formula or exact numbers.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so will suggest later) As for numbers, it depends how much you want to reduce the incoming damage.

 

Example:

> if you want to reduce incoming damage at -5 (AR minus PEN) by 75%, let it be case (a)

> if you want to reduce incoming damage at -5 (AR minus PEN) by an amount that can be countered by having a +75% damage bonus, let it be case (b)

 

For case (a) it's pretty straight-forward, and the threshold values (for PenetrationMultipliers from json bundles) would be:

OverPEN:

x2.0 => thresholdValue = 1.3

x1.6 => thresholdValue = 1.2

x1.3 => thresholdValue = 1.1

 

UnderPEN:

-1 => thresholdValue = 0.85

-2 => thresholdValue = 0.70

-3 => thresholdValue = 0.55

-4 => thresholdValue = 0.40

-5 or more => thresholdValue = 0.25

 

 

For case (b) the threshold values (for PenetrationMultipliers from json bundles) would be:

OverPEN:

x2.0 => thresholdValue = 1.3

x1.6 => thresholdValue = 1.2

x1.3 => thresholdValue = 1.1

 

UnderPEN:

-1 => thresholdValue = (1 / 1.15) = 0.8695

-2 => thresholdValue = (1 / 1.30) = 0.7692

-3 => thresholdValue = (1 / 1.45) = 0.6896

-4 => thresholdValue = (1 / 1.60) = 0.6250

-5 or more => thresholdValue = (1 / 1.75) = 0.5714

 

I.e. if you attack a target that has AR higher than your PEN by 3, you will deal your usual base damage if your weapon is of superb quality:

step_sum = (1.45 - 1) + (1 - 1 / 0.6896) = 0

 

---

Edit: I see you have went for a variation of (a) with that mod)

And at -7 (PEN-AR) characters will deal x5 less damage.

 

I haven't tried the mod in practice yet, but looking at numbers would expect the following ^^:

- it will increase the average dps of classes that lacked passive +PEN bonuses (i.e. almost everyone except rogue, warrior and cipher). Perhaps evoker will benefit the most.

- it will make player's party substantially squishier. For instance at -3, characters take x2.5 less damage now, compared to x4 less before. Enemy rogues will hurt badly.

- if you can't get rid of Neriscyrlas safeguard, you are even more pushed towards using battle-axes (because of their proficiency DoT, which is strong as hell, in prolonged battles)

- but on average:

> there will be less frustration from under-penetration

> the specialization into dps vs tank will become stricter (if you want to tank, you will have to really heavy invest into it)

> healing will become slightly less efficient (one thing is having a HoT and taking 25% of damage; and another is having a HoT and taking 40% of damage; the sustain-power is reduced)

> and there will be more knockouts)

Edited October 5, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Ancelor]

and to think that all this could be avoided by just changing the DR from POE to % instead of flat values

[hilfazer]

and to think that all this could be avoided by just changing the DR from POE to % instead of flat values

 

Percent has its problems like:

- low values do too little, high values do too much

- DPH doesn't matter, DPS is everything

 

Changing penetration to % OTOH would certainly be an improvement.

 

 

 

 

Em...if you have much more PEN than enemy's AR this is should be rewarded somehow.

 

Just like doing more damage than enemy has HP should be rewarded. But it's not and nobody has a problem with that. Why? Because Obsidian didn't teach their players it should.

 

 

If i were a simpler player with simpler needs i would like PEN being essentially damage.

Enemy has high armor? Get more PEN.

Enemy has high HP? Get more PEN.

 

So easy. Like in D:OS2:

Want to do damage? Get more damage.

Want to apply status effects? Get more damage.

 

 

 

 

In PoE 1, if you have much more damage than enemy's DR it was rewarded in kind of increased damage dealt. PoE 2 grants similar reward through OverPEN.

 

Apples and oranges. Let's compare same fruits, shall we?

In PoE Pen higher than enemy DR gives nothing (correct me if i'm wrong).

 

You can ignore something fully, but you can't fullier.

Edited October 5, 2018 by hilfazer

[Archaven]

We need a MaxQuest

 

seldom see his post anymore. is he gone?

[Phenomenum]

@hilfazer

I got your point. Don't want to argue - each of us has it's own opinion and this is great) Anyway, i did a version without overPEN changes.

[Phenomenum]

@MaxQuest

 

Any suggestions about values? I'm interested in your professional opinion)

[Ancelor]

 

and to think that all this could be avoided by just changing the DR from POE to % instead of flat values

 

Percent has its problems like:

- low values do too little, high values do too much

- DPH doesn't matter, DPS is everything

 

Changing penetration to % OTOH would certainly be an improvement.

 

 

 

 

Em...if you have much more PEN than enemy's AR this is should be rewarded somehow.

 

Just like doing more damage than enemy has HP should be rewarded. But it's not and nobody has a problem with that. Why? because Obsidian did't teach their players it should.

 

 

If i were a simpler player with simpler needs i would like PEN being essentially damage.

Enemy has high armor? Get more PEN.

Enemy has high HP? Get more PEN.

 

So easy. Like in D:OS2:

Want to do damage? Get more damage.

Want to apply status effects? Get more damage.

 

 

 

 

In PoE 1, if you have much more damage than enemy's DR it was rewarded in kind of increased damage dealt. PoE 2 grants similar reward through OverPEN.

 

Apples and oranges. Let's compare same fruits, shall we?

In PoE Pen higher than enemy DR gives nothing (correct me if i'm wrong).

 

You can ignore something fully, but you can't fullier.

 

 

The armor/magic armor system in DOS2 almost made an otherwise amazing game almost boring for me.

the fact that once armors are gone there was nothing to stop hard ccing everything made most fights a chore

[Boeroer]

In PoE Pen higher than enemy DR gives nothing

That is correct.