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The 'Changes for Balance' Thread


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I really hope they change it to work with dual wielding in the final 1.1 build, in which case the percentage reduction would make a lot of sense.

I don't think so, and it would make dual-wielding even more OP than it already is.

From stealth, you already get a almost-no-recovery attack on top of a back stab, and that's worth way more than 100% additional backstab damage.

You get to apply effects, you get a second chance to hit or even crit, you get another chance to sneak attack, ...

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I think you can thank the youtuber that posted the oneshot backstab build Paladin/assasin two-hander.

He speced for max backab dmg with flames of devotion.

Guess that made them to the nerf.

It's Obsidian mistake to allow backstab with two handed. In every games backstab is often restricted to dagger like weapons. I've no problem with allowing two handed for rogue for sake of diversity and multiclassing, but they can make backstab work like Ring the Bell and have a different bonus depending the weapon. For sneaking, poison etc... weapons like dagger, stilleto should have an advantage. Not be mandatory, but more optimal.

 

I know magic is op right now, but in a better balanced game I would love to see a magic ambusher passive that allow to use backstab, sneakattack & deathblow with magic. Only a small % bonus, perhaps restricted to touch/cone spells.

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I think you can thank the youtuber that posted the oneshot backstab build Paladin/assasin two-hander.

He speced for max backab dmg with flames of devotion.

Guess that made them to the nerf.

Similar things happen with Soul Annihilation. And you can use it on an AoE attack like on Whispers of the Endless Paths.

Plus, they have quite a lot of telemetry data on the most devastating things, e.g. Empower and Meteor Shower (that's why Empower is being nerfed from +10 PL to +5).

 

 

I think you can thank the youtuber that posted the oneshot backstab build Paladin/assasin two-hander.

He speced for max backab dmg with flames of devotion.

Guess that made them to the nerf.

It's Obsidian mistake to allow backstab with two handed. In every games backstab is often restricted to dagger like weapons. I've no problem with allowing two handed for rogue for sake of diversity and multiclassing, but they can make backstab work like Ring the Bell and have a different bonus depending the weapon. For sneaking, poison etc... weapons like dagger, stilleto should have an advantage. Not be mandatory, but more optimal.

 

I know magic is op right now, but in a better balanced game I would love to see a magic ambusher passive that allow to use backstab, sneakattack & deathblow with magic. Only a small % bonus, perhaps restricted to touch/cone spells.

 

At least they don't allow siege weapons - reminds me of "The Gamers" :grin:

Edited by Zoso der Goldene

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It's Obsidian mistake to allow backstab with two handed. In every games backstab is often restricted to dagger like weapons. I've no problem with allowing two handed for rogue for sake of diversity and multiclassing, but they can make backstab work like Ring the Bell and have a different bonus depending the weapon. For sneaking, poison etc... weapons like dagger, stilleto should have an advantage. Not be mandatory, but more optimal.

 

 

 

I know magic is op right now, but in a better balanced game I would love to see a magic ambusher passive that allow to use backstab, sneakattack & deathblow with magic. Only a small % bonus, perhaps restricted to touch/cone spells.

 

I know this is custom in RPGs to limit backstab to small weapons, it's more like in real life in POE. If I'll hit you from behind with a Two-hander I'm pretty sure I'll make lot more damage, than by striking you with a knife from behind.

I'm fine with that.

Backstab did not need nerf though. It could be used for massive dmg with some ablities and passive, but that was it's purpose. And rogues were not overpowered.

 

Obisdian went AWOL on nerfs for no reason, they should stop. They need to buff two-handed weapon speed/recovery & penetration to make em good option.

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Backstabing isn't really about hiting someone in the back, because you've already have flanked that represent this. It's more about delivering a precision strike, aim for vital parts of the enemy. Light weapon are far better for this because it's easier to aim weal spot of armor.

 

Backstab, even at 150% is suboptimal for dagger & co. For 3 pts (shadow veil + crippling strike) you're just better to spam 2x/3x crippling strike and take advantage of your fast striking. The extra dmg is less important than with 2 handed weapons. Dev need to adjust backstabbing so it can be interesting with all weapons. Adjust the bonus depending of the weapon, and perhaps an extra effect, like melee two handed have a lower dmg bonus but stun target, dagger do more dmg and add a bleed, stiletto extra penetration etc...

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I think it is still a nice bonus after this nerf. Just think about all the other effects already stacking in this situation: Weapon backstap bonus, crit, crit maginitude etc...

You also don't have to initiate combat with your rogue. Just reveal your tank, let your babarian leap in etc and then start stabbing with your ninja.

 

There are also multiple abilities that allow this class to use the backstab multiplier a couple of times during combat:

 

Smoke Veil (2)

 

Shadowing Beyond (4)

 

Enduring Shadows (7)

 

Vanishing Strike (9)

 

Potion of Invisibility

Edited by Rulin
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I think it is still a nice bonus after this nerf. Just think about all the other effects already stacking in this situation: Weapon backstap bonus, crit, crit maginitude etc...

You also don't have to initiate combat with your rogue. Just reveal your tank, let your babarian leap in etc and then start stabbing with your ninja.

 

There are also multiple abilities that allow this class to use the backstab multiplier a couple of times during combat:

 

Smoke Veil (2)

 

Shadowing Beyond (4)

 

Enduring Shadows (7)

 

Vanishing Strike (9)

 

Potion of Invisibility

 

Except all of those abilities require repositioning and time that you would otherwise spend doing direct damage. From a DPS perspective, there is no comparison between a dual wielding rogue using full attack abilities (which have gotten a +25% damage bonus) against flanked targets every ~2 seconds (even faster for streetfighters) vs. an assassin spending ~2 seconds triggering smoke veil and repositioning for a backstab. If a streetfighter grazes with devastating blow, it's not so much of a loss because they'll be following up with another attack immediately to give them a second chance to do damage and trigger the effect. If an assassin grazes with a backstab, they've just wasted as much as 4 seconds of combat time because they'll have to stealth and reposition again - that's around the time it takes for a wizard to launch a fireball.

 

There is just not enough of a damage differential to make up for the time differential. If a single-class rogue has to spend time during combat stealthing and repositioning and still can't backstab most enemies down to bloodied or below, what's the point?

 

-------------

 

Some possible alternatives:

 

1. Add an "Improved Backstab" ability at PL 4 or 5 that increases damage and applies a 3 second stun (accuracy vs. fort) to allow the rogue to make a follow-up attack.

 

2. Make backstab innate the way it is in every other CRPG and have it grow to a set max damage level determined by subclass.

 

3. Make "assassinate" guarantee that attacks from stealth critically hit; maybe balance by removing the current crit damage bonus. After playing a high-accuracy assassin in 1.0 and 1.1, it's kind of galling how often "assassinate" currently doesn't land.

 

4. Reduce recovery when invisible/in stealth.

 

5. Leave backstab at 100% but reduce Smoke Veil's cost to 1 guile. I can't think of any other ability that costs 2 resource pool for a 5 second effect while offering zero direct damage or debuff capability.

 

 

Edited by Purudaya
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I suggested this easy solution several times now:

 

Instead of giving Backstab a percentage-based bonus of 100% (or 150% or whatever) it should get a flat damage bonus (maybe raw damage). Basically like Soul Annihilation (without the focus part). This way you would decouple the dmg bonus from weapon base damage. This would mean that every weapon type would be viable. With such a flat bonus it would also be easier to include Power Level scaling.

 

This would also prevent that certain multiclass combos (Flames of Devotion + Backstab = multiplicative lash dmg which gets boosted by Backstab = one-shotting stuff all the time) are too strong. No need to nerf FoD further. Stuff that works like Soul Annihilation (flat dmg bonus as raw) just adds to the FoD damage and doesn't get multiplied.

 

The amount of flat bonus can be easily found out by using the average base damage of all weapon types - for starters. That is the same as 100% weapon base damage - just averaged over all types.

 

And if you want you could still give different dmg numbers for different types of weapons.

 

I don't understand why this hasn't been the preferred implementation in the first place...

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I suggested this easy solution several times now:

 

Instead of giving Backstab a percentage-based bonus of 100% (or 150% or whatever) it should get a flat damage bonus (maybe raw damage). Basically like Soul Annihilation (without the focus part). This way you would decouple the dmg bonus from weapon base damage. This would mean that every weapon type would be viable. With such a flat bonus it would also be easier to include Power Level scaling.

 

This would also prevent that certain multiclass combos (Flames of Devotion + Backstab = multiplicative lash dmg which gets boosted by Backstab = one-shotting stuff all the time) are too strong. No need to nerf FoD further. Stuff that works like Soul Annihilation (flat dmg bonus as raw) just adds to the FoD damage and doesn't get multiplied.

 

The amount of flat bonus can be easily found out by using the average base damage of all weapon types - for starters. That is the same as 100% weapon base damage - just averaged over all types.

 

And if you want you could still give different dmg numbers for different types of weapons.

 

I don't understand why this hasn't been the preferred implementation in the first place...

 

But...but this will nerf the only meaning of 2h weapons  ;(

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Haha... good one. :)

 

Well as I said: different types could have different effects (if you want to make things more complex). Look at "Ring the Bell" and such. You could give two handers a might affliction on crit when backstabbing or more PEN for the physical damage, a dexterity affliction or an additional DoT for light weapons, you name it.

 

But first of all I would prefer a simple solution that is easy to implement, easy to balance and removes the nonsense of "Ha! My two handed sledge hammer is perfect for backstabs!".    

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Backstab is a good ability. It costs one point to get and it's a passive ability so I'm not complaining. Rogue is very strong now but still very resource heavy. Withering Strike upgraded with the DoT is very strong and Weakened is a killer vs enemies with heavy healing. But the 3 point cost hurts.

Confounding blind wich is one of the absolute best afflictions in the game costs 1 point less.

The reason why backstab is considered bad is because of the resources it costs to actively make use of it in battle and that is not worth it no. It's worth it for the alpha strike and that is all. Resources are better spent on the rogues very good afflictions. I never spec deadly blow either because it's not really worth the resources for that little extra dmg.

Edited by Dorftek
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I suggested this easy solution several times now:

 

Instead of giving Backstab a percentage-based bonus of 100% (or 150% or whatever) it should get a flat damage bonus (maybe raw damage). Basically like Soul Annihilation (without the focus part). This way you would decouple the dmg bonus from weapon base damage. This would mean that every weapon type would be viable. With such a flat bonus it would also be easier to include Power Level scaling.

 

This would also prevent that certain multiclass combos (Flames of Devotion + Backstab = multiplicative lash dmg which gets boosted by Backstab = one-shotting stuff all the time) are too strong. No need to nerf FoD further. Stuff that works like Soul Annihilation (flat dmg bonus as raw) just adds to the FoD damage and doesn't get multiplied.

 

The amount of flat bonus can be easily found out by using the average base damage of all weapon types - for starters. That is the same as 100% weapon base damage - just averaged over all types.

 

And if you want you could still give different dmg numbers for different types of weapons.

 

I don't understand why this hasn't been the preferred implementation in the first place...

Off-topic question (kinda): Are you sure Soul annihilation doesn't get multiplied? I havent't seen any details of how it's calculated yet, but I had instances where I did ~100pts of weapon damage and >250pts of Soul annihilation damage (with ~100 focus) - feels like it's multiplied with something.

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Yeas, it feels like that, but that's because the physical damage you do with your weapon's Primary Attack (when executing Soul Annihilation) generates focus - which will then be immediately dumped into the raw damage of Soul Annihilation. The raw damage itself is not multiplicative but only gets calculated based on the focus you have after the physical damage had its hit roll.

 

It's kind of unintuitive. ;)

 

That's the reason why you should not wait with Soul Annihilation until your focus is full - because then you will waste the focus that is being generated during Soul Annihilation itself.

 

When you have Draining Whip you can usually use Soul Annihilation all the time (as long as you have 5 focus min) because you will generate a lot of focus with Soul Annihilation itself before dumping it into the raw damage.

 

However: That was the case in beta3. But I don't think they changed the mechanics at release or even in 1.1.

Edited by Boeroer

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1. Using backstab with a single-class rogue as a combat opener is a considerable risk given that enemies tend to swarm the player afterward, typically necessitating the use of smoke veil/escape.

 

2. Using smoke veil during combat and setting up a backstab requires time you would otherwise spend building toward an auto-attack, so the net DPS gain is already less than it appears.

 

3. Smoke veil breaks engagement and often causes enemies to run off and engage another ally, further increasing the amount of time not doing damage as you either chase that enemy in stealth or position against a new one.

 

4. Now that it looks like a lot of the full attack rogue abilities have received a 25% damage bonus, the difference between setting up a backstab mid combat (primary attack) for +100% damage + 1x sneak attack isn't much better than using confounding blind and dual wield (full attack) against a flanked enemy for 2x +25% damage and 2x sneak attack for the same guile cost.

 

1.  Don't open with a rogue standing by himself waiting to die.  Have tanks engage, and the rogue backstab something that you have engaged.  Bonus points if you can make the backstab Sneak Attack valid, which isn't that hard to do (Eder Swashbuckler Persistent Distractions, spells / abilities with Afflictions).

2.  Yup, you will be attacking later than your tank, and losing a few seconds of DPS, but you won't be getting aggro.

3.  Why is your Rogue being Engaged, he should be stabbing people in the back while they fight someone else.  If your previous big stab (vs. an engaged target) causes them to switch to the Rogue, they'll switch back to original target, none of which should actually move them.

4.  Even used intelligently, Backstab is probably a net dps loss, compared to just stabbing things w/Sneak, let alone spamming (the now buffed) Full Attack abilities.

 

Backstab, should be a Full Attack action, to encourage Dual Wielding, most Rog stuff should be.  Nerfing a sub par ability, because it had the ability to be used in some broken gimmick build is just not good.

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Yeas, it feels like that, but that's because the physical damage you do with your weapon's Primary Attack (when executing Soul Annihilation) generates focus - which will then be immediately dumped into the raw damage of Soul Annihilation. The raw damage itself is not multiplicative but only gets calculated based on the focus you have after the physical damage had its hit roll.

 

It's kind of unintuitive. ;)

 

That's the reason why you should not wait with Soul Annihilation until your focus is full - because then you will waste the focus that is being generated during Soul Annihilation itself.

 

When you have Draining Whip you can usually use Soul Annihilation all the time (as long as you have 5 focus min) because you will generate a lot of focus with Soul Annihilation itself before dumping it into the raw damage.

 

However: That was the case in beta3. But I don't think they changed the mechanics at release or even in 1.1.

Not sure.

It's not an integer number, either, which I would expect it to be if it was 1:1 focus - except if they calculate focus as float internally, as it's based on damage - would make some sense, I must admit.

I sometimes do more than twice my maximum focus of Soul Annihilation damage (at least a.t. the combat log, and also counting the Soul Blade bonuses to Max Focus acquired over time), like ~100 weapon damage and ~250 raw damage with ~130 max focus.

Wait a minute, maybe Soul Annihilation ignores the max focus limit for the attack itself? Because it resets focus anyhow later on?

 

BTW: Some most likely obsolete beta screenshot here, > 400 raw damage with 100 focus. I guess there was some fiddling, just not sure when.

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SA's damage was retuned several times during beta. It was ridiculously high at the beginning and then got nerfed. It now gets nerfed again with patch 1.1.

 

The behavior I described above was taken out of the beta code base (decompiled), so that was indeed the mechanic in the beta. I don't think they changed the underlying mechanics for release, but it may be. 

 

The calculations are usually done as floats. Rounding only happens in UI (I believe).

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1. Using backstab with a single-class rogue as a combat opener is a considerable risk given that enemies tend to swarm the player afterward, typically necessitating the use of smoke veil/escape.

 

2. Using smoke veil during combat and setting up a backstab requires time you would otherwise spend building toward an auto-attack, so the net DPS gain is already less than it appears.

 

3. Smoke veil breaks engagement and often causes enemies to run off and engage another ally, further increasing the amount of time not doing damage as you either chase that enemy in stealth or position against a new one.

 

4. Now that it looks like a lot of the full attack rogue abilities have received a 25% damage bonus, the difference between setting up a backstab mid combat (primary attack) for +100% damage + 1x sneak attack isn't much better than using confounding blind and dual wield (full attack) against a flanked enemy for 2x +25% damage and 2x sneak attack for the same guile cost.

 

1.  Don't open with a rogue standing by himself waiting to die.  Have tanks engage, and the rogue backstab something that you have engaged.  Bonus points if you can make the backstab Sneak Attack valid, which isn't that hard to do (Eder Swashbuckler Persistent Distractions, spells / abilities with Afflictions).

2.  Yup, you will be attacking later than your tank, and losing a few seconds of DPS, but you won't be getting aggro.

3.  Why is your Rogue being Engaged, he should be stabbing people in the back while they fight someone else.  If your previous big stab (vs. an engaged target) causes them to switch to the Rogue, they'll switch back to original target, none of which should actually move them.

4.  Even used intelligently, Backstab is probably a net dps loss, compared to just stabbing things w/Sneak, let alone spamming (the now buffed) Full Attack abilities.

 

Backstab, should be a Full Attack action, to encourage Dual Wielding, most Rog stuff should be.  Nerfing a sub par ability, because it had the ability to be used in some broken gimmick build is just not good.

 

 

1. Given all the positioning that happens at the start of combat, attempting to land a backstab this way (initiating combat with your tank, then having a rogue sneak into the fight) without being detected basically means holding your rogue back until all initial engagements have been set. Even then, the design of some encounters can make this extremely hard to pull off without being spotted (not all areas allow rogues to sneak behind the enemy group before your party engages) and requires quite a bit of time and effort for a paltry +100% damage bonus.

 

2. I understand how the ability works and have tested rogue builds extensively; I'm just highlighting the already underwhelming net DPS. 

 

3. There are plenty of reasons for a rogue to directly engage/be engaged by enemies. Streetfighters need engagements to trigger flanked/bloodied, swashbucklers need engagements for cleaving stance, Shadowdancers need engagements for wounds, etc. Even a single class (no subclass) rogue can hold up fairly well against 1-2 engagements if they keep their DPS up; it's only really Assassins and possibly Tricksters that need to adhere strictly to the playstyle you're describing.

 

4. I obviously agree that backstab is a net DPS loss, but making it a full attack is not the solution. Dual wield is already the most powerful offensive weapon style by most metrics, and making it the best choice for backstab as well would make one-handed style obsolete for this class. If anything, backstabbing while dual wielding should offer some sort of penalty, encouraging players to choose between the two when deciding whether to make a full-attack oriented rogue or a stealth-oriented one. 

 

I think Boeroer's idea of decoupling backstab damage from weapon damage is a good way to encourage more diverse weapon use, but I would probably go further and significantly buff the assassin's crit bonus to really encourage one-handed style, at least for that subclass. A highly attractive backstab ability that encourages one-handed style in a class that otherwise encourages dual wield would make for some interesting player choice incentives that don't exist at the moment, imo.

Edited by Purudaya
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I think it is still a nice bonus after this nerf. Just think about all the other effects already stacking in this situation: Weapon backstap bonus, crit, crit maginitude etc...

You also don't have to initiate combat with your rogue. Just reveal your tank, let your babarian leap in etc and then start stabbing with your ninja.

 

There are also multiple abilities that allow this class to use the backstab multiplier a couple of times during combat:

 

Smoke Veil (2)

 

Shadowing Beyond (4)

 

Enduring Shadows (7)

 

Vanishing Strike (9)

 

Potion of Invisibility

Except all of those abilities require repositioning and time that you would otherwise spend doing direct damage. From a DPS perspective, there is no comparison between a dual wielding rogue using full attack abilities (which have gotten a +25% damage bonus) against flanked targets every ~2 seconds (even faster for streetfighters) vs. an assassin spending ~2 seconds triggering smoke veil and repositioning for a backstab. If a streetfighter grazes with devastating blow, it's not so much of a loss because they'll be following up with another attack immediately to give them a second chance to do damage and trigger the effect. If an assassin grazes with a backstab, they've just wasted as much as 4 seconds of combat time because they'll have to stealth and reposition again - that's around the time it takes for a wizard to launch a fireball.

 

There is just not enough of a damage differential to make up for the time differential. If a single-class rogue has to spend time during combat stealthing and repositioning and still can't backstab most enemies down to bloodied or below, what's the point?

 

-------------

 

Some possible alternatives:

 

1. Add an "Improved Backstab" ability at PL 4 or 5 that increases damage and applies a 3 second stun (accuracy vs. fort) to allow the rogue to make a follow-up attack.

 

2. Make backstab innate the way it is in every other CRPG and have it grow to a set max damage level determined by subclass.

 

3. Make "assassinate" guarantee that attacks from stealth critically hit; maybe balance by removing the current crit damage bonus. After playing a high-accuracy assassin in 1.0 and 1.1, it's kind of galling how often "assassinate" currently doesn't land.

 

4. Reduce recovery when invisible/in stealth.

 

5. Leave backstab at 100% but reduce Smoke Veil's cost to 1 guile. I can't think of any other ability that costs 2 resource pool for a 5 second effect while offering zero direct damage or debuff capability.

 

That’s why I never pick smoke veil, I only use shadowing beyond.

 

Smoke veil = dps lose, shadowing beyond is positive gain. But of u can pick smoke veil to dodge some single target spells like missile spells. That’s a different story tho.

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1. Given all the positioning that happens at the start of combat, attempting to land a backstab this way (initiating combat with your tank, then having a rogue sneak into the fight) without being detected basically means holding your rogue back until all initial engagements have been set. Even then, the design of some encounters can make this extremely hard to pull off without being spotted (not all areas allow rogues to sneak behind the enemy group before your party engages) and requires quite a bit of time and effort for a paltry +100% damage bonus.

 

You can use Escape for this though. It doesn't break stealth (if you pick your landing spot right, anyway), and personally I never tire of my assassin tumbling across the battlefield and burying his axe in someone's skull in one flowing motion :). I'm certainly not happy about the Backstab nerf mind you, makes my axe bleed less excessively as well, and in terms of optimization it's probably not a priority pick. But especially on an assassin character it's definitely useful (being an assassin you'll want to be frequently invisible anyway, and ranged assassins are lame  :grin:), even if it's just at the start of combat. 

Edited by Loren Tyr
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going through the game on PotD with scaling AND a difficulty x2 mod...

cast an empowered wilting with Aloth (after drinking stat boost red potion and a potion of perfect aim) and did 398 damage to one of the creatures in the AOE, and averaged 375 across all (level 13-16 undead).

I was impressed.  of course, everything was dead.

then, first time i tried it, cast an empowered minolettas missile salvo on the kraken (Gallawain/underwater ruin).  I think that thing is level 17?   it's big, anyway.

uh....

after scrolling though 3 pages of damage listings....

grand total damage done to kraken?

2719

O.o

yikes.  

that's 15 missile hits, each of which has about a 2m hit radius, average damage around 180 each.

basically, this makes the game easy mode, no matter what mods you are using.

I'm not sure there is an easy solution to this.  people will complain mightily if creatures become "bullet sponges", and also will complain if their tremendously op wizards now do about half the damage they previously did (but that's the damage they really SHOULD be doing).

I'm sure there are threads discussing this already, and many ideas as to what to do about it, but it was just such a shock to see just how powerful some of the high level wizard spells are, especially compared to physical attacks from guns/melee, which are themselves more than powerful enough.

carry on.

:)


 

Edited by Ichthyic
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Your best bet is probably to only use empowers to refresh resources, because empowering the abilities themselves is stupidly OP. Obviously if you like being stupidly OP, thats cool too, but if thats not your style, then I'd definitely avoid empowering spells themselves. Especially spells that are already crazy OP like missile salvo.

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Yeah strange early game meet 3 constructs which take lot hits bring down.

 

By lot mean lot, shortly after leaving city start getting to point where few spells and empower destroy anything fast.

 

Something like rogue doing 200 damage on average while magic users doing 350 plus damage.

 

I had enjoyable fights with constructs and frampyrs and dragon/bosses just cake walks.

 

One the issues is either don't use empower for spells which makes fights longer and run out things throw or you use empower and fights over so fast.

 

Throw in priest, wizard and druid use empower on there best spells think you could kill eothas very fast.

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