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Factions: Sick of them


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#21
Tagaziel

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From Fallout, to Skyrim, to Pillar's I've had it up to here with dealing with squabbling factions that care for nothing outside their own interests. I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this.


Works of culture reflect the times they're made in and these games are no exceptions. I'm kind of surprised to see someone complain about the excellent faction system which gives no perfect options and forces you to make hard choices - with no perfectly good way out (go alone is the very bad ending).

It's amazing how a Living God doesn't unite these people at all. The Ratuians make the least sense in this game, they hate their own kind just because they are more advanced.


Uh, they aren't the same kind. Rauatai and the Huana have been separated by two thousands years of history. To call them "their own kind" makes about as much sense as referring to modern western Europe/North Africa/Balkans as "one kind" because the Romans controlled it all at one time.

I love Deadfire for its implementation of factions.
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#22
AeonsLegend

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Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

Exept if you join all of them (like in all games that have factions) it will probably end very bad for you.



#23
Climhazzard

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I used my character backstory to determine my actions in the Deadfire.  Deadfire>slave.  Then slaughtered anyone and everything that supports the crookspur slavers, with only minor support to the remaining factions, but ultimately went my own way because my character didn't really care about the Deadfire and who became the Top Dog there.


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#24
JFutral

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I went it alone my first playthrough and rooted Eothas on, too. Didn't like any of the factions. I would have evn sided with a True Neutral if there was such a thing in this universe.

 

In terms of diplomacy, though, has anyone tried dumping all their skill points into diplomacy to see if things come out different?
 

Joe



#25
gkathellar

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From Fallout, to Skyrim, to Pillar's I've had it up to here with dealing with squabbling factions that care for nothing outside their own interests. I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this.

 
Insofar as it's becoming a cliche in CRPGs, I can sympathize. It's certainly realistic, especially in a sweeping fantasy epic full of political turbulence as most CRPGs tend to be these days, but the whole thing was significantly more novel back in the days of Fallout 1 and BG2 and the like. These days, I'd be surprised to see a CRPG without at least three factions you can take the side of. It's not an inherently bad thing, but I can certainly understand your frustration with the universality of the trope.
 
That said!
 

It's amazing how a Living God doesn't unite these people at all.

 
Yes, well, people with identical religious beliefs frequently kill each other. To say nothing of the people who don't believe it's a god, the people who don't care that it's a god, the people who worship another deity (especially a rival god), etc. And on the other side of the equation, despite the optimism of fiction about people's ability to unify in the face of shared existential threats, I have yet to see that actually happen.
 

The Ratuians make the least sense in this game, they hate their own kind just because they are more advanced.

 
They make perfect sense, insofar as man's inhumanity to man ever does. Rauataians see the Huana as backwards, superstitious, and in need of guidance from a superior people, and that's when they're being generous.
 

The Vallians can only see gold coins, though I do agree they need to advance Animancy.

 
That's because the VTC is pretty explicitly Eora's version of the Dutch East India Company.
 

The Principi think they are nobles but are nothing more than pirates.

 
Most pirating, historically, was state-sponsored, or at least state-tolerated. The idea of a pirate nation with an unrealistically high opinion of itself ain't as crazy as you might think.


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#26
evilcat

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Water dragon is the best ally.

Go to Ukaizo with just your crew and buffed ship.

Tell Eothas to just destroy the world.

That will fix factions problem forever!


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#27
Celan

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Factions are actually where the game shines (and Neketaka). Most interesting quets and decisions are made in factions quests.
Main story is there just to justify the facions shenanigans. (and is pretty weak)

Yes, they are all ****ty. But most have duality in them. All have it's pros and cons, just like most real life political factions. Their nuances make the game interesting.

 

Interesting you chose Huana to be the best. I'd say they are the worst. They are racist, xenopohbes following suprestitions and dark age traditons. Their caste system might be worse than actual slavery.
 

Because they're the indigenous people. The others were going to have to make a strong case to get me to side with them. I was prepared to support the VTC, who seem to offer something to the Huana besides conquest- up to the point they wanted me to commit at best mass murder and at worst mass murder and suicide. Nothing they had done had earned such fanatic loyalty. I'm not sure I could do that quest even if I rp'ed a Vailian.

 

Meanwhile the Rautaians didn't make a good case for what they could offer the Deadfire, and after I opened Ukaizo without sacrificing any of their ships or men- they respond by attacking me.

 

The Principi really offer the best moral choice, and I would have gone with them after forsaking the VTC, if I could have gotten Furrante to step down. At least they can be bargained with. Fanatics cannot.

 

By default, I picked "screw all y'all." Even with a bad ending, it was the only real choice.

 

It's not that I dislike factions, it's how they were executed in this one that left me cold. Fallout New Vegas remains the gold standard, even with the Legion being so shortchanged.


Edited by Celan, 11 June 2018 - 12:43 PM.


#28
Noctoi

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I used my character backstory to determine my actions in the Deadfire.  Deadfire>slave.  Then slaughtered anyone and everything that supports the crookspur slavers, with only minor support to the remaining factions, but ultimately went my own way because my character didn't really care about the Deadfire and who became the Top Dog there.

I have pretty much done the same thing. 

 

I freakin hate playing politics in RPGs, and they all seem to be including the 'faction system' these days. I miss the days of DA:O where you basically said "The world is ending, we're the only ones left who can stop the threat... you could stop us and doom the world... or you could let us save your petty squabbling asses. Your choice!" and then mike drop out of 'court' and get on with risking life an limb. 

 

I just don't care, unless innocent people are being hurt, or the faction is trying to stop me from doing my job (which was the very worst part of DA:I). I"ll mash the slavers, because slavers, but everyone else can just get out of my way. 



#29
Selky

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I'll give them points this time for portraying every faction as horrible. It's the most realistic depiction of politics I've ever seen in a game and I can only hope that it's caused people to rethink their stance on politics in real life. The real choice isn't which faction you support, it's whether or not you give in to political apathy.



#30
Balbanes

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The Principi think they are nobles but are nothing more than pirates.

 

Oh, you sided with those Principi.  I sided with the Aeldys faction: pirates who know they're pirates and just want to do some pirating before the end of the world.  Had to respect their purity of motive.


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#31
wRAR

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Because they're the indigenous people. The others were going to have to make a strong case to get me to side with them. I was prepared to support the VTC, who seem to offer something to the Huana besides conquest- up to the point they wanted me to commit at best mass murder and at worst mass murder and suicide.

Jut try siding with Huana next time and compare :)
 

The Principi really offer the best moral choice

And the worst ending, if you don't support Furrante (who is a slaver).
Maybe if you do too.



#32
bugarup

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There is a way to side with Huana and VTC without making the gunpowder warehouse go boom - go see Hazanui first, she asks you to assassinate Onekaza, you say "No thanks, I'll be going now", and she's all "Nuh-uh". You mop the floor with them and the dudes outside, go see Onekaza or Castol, they're all "Welp, you're brutal but efficient, lets proceed to Ukaizo then". Voila, no blown up civvies on your conscience.  :biggrin:


Edited by bugarup, 12 June 2018 - 12:14 AM.

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#33
Yria

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To be honest, after seeing RDC murdering animancers in the Spire I didn't feel bad at all about blowing up their warehouse. I wouldn't do it for Onekaza because that also involves framing another party (even if they were planning to blow it up themselves, we beat them to it), but if I choose VTC - sure, why not. 



#34
Celan

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I'll give them points this time for portraying every faction as horrible. It's the most realistic depiction of politics I've ever seen in a game and I can only hope that it's caused people to rethink their stance on politics in real life. The real choice isn't which faction you support, it's whether or not you give in to political apathy.

 

Apathy is the correct response IMO.

 

To be honest, after seeing RDC murdering animancers in the Spire I didn't feel bad at all about blowing up their warehouse. I wouldn't do it for Onekaza because that also involves framing another party (even if they were planning to blow it up themselves, we beat them to it), but if I choose VTC - sure, why not. 

So you'd respond by committing an even worse atrocity?

 

Good to know there's a way to wipe the floor with the hazanui and circumvent all that.



#35
Yria

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So you'd respond by committing an even worse atrocity?

 

It's not a responce, it's a way to eliminate a political rival. The one that lied to me on every turn, tried to harass me into handing them the coordinates of Ukaizo and made me complicit in murder of local chieftains. Them attacking the Spire simply drops my sympathy level for them below zero. 

 

And I wouldn't really call it worse. 


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#36
misterjimmy

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Feel like the game's minor factions should have a bit more impact too, it feels weird coming from how New Vegas and even Tyranny handled factions in interesting ways, and then it seems PoE 2 have regressed a lot on that front


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#37
Wormerine

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Feel like the game's minor factions should have a bit more impact too, it feels weird coming from how New Vegas and even Tyranny handled factions in interesting ways, and then it seems PoE 2 have regressed a lot on that front

Yeah, for me its mostly lack of picking sides until finale. In my recent Tyranny playthrough I have been at odds with Voices for the majority of the game, so it feels satisfying to fight him at the end. In Deadfire the end fights is too sudden, even though there is an explenation for it. 



#38
Yria

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In my recent Tyranny playthrough I have been at odds with Voices for the majority of the game, so it feels satisfying to fight him at the end. In Deadfire the end fights is too sudden, even though there is an explenation for it. 

 

Interesting. My first Tyranny playthrough (Disfavored) I felt more like "me and this archon I sided with and thanks to that know a lot about VS that other archon I know nothing about beyond him being a psycho". I didn't care at all about confronting Nerat because I only saw him briefly in the first act, and after that he was gone for the bigger part of the game. Sure, I ran into his minions from time to time, but they were not him. Accusing Ashe in the court and killing him was actually way more satisfying because he had all the time in the world to make me hate him during act 2.

 

In Deadfire I at least get to work with all the faction leaders and form some opinion about them. I even felt somewhat bad about snatching the Hangman from under Furrante's nose and killing him on Ukaizo, and Principi was the faction I cared the least about.


Edited by Yria, 14 June 2018 - 04:51 AM.





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