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Which builds are FUN after 1.1


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#81
KDubya

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No cheese to me means walking down the center of the ramp and taking on all the enemies at once.

 

I'm not good enough to accomplish that even with a party of Eder and Xoti with upscaled Potd and starting at level 4 on creation. Couldn't with my Wizard Slayer/ Shattered Pillar or my single class Shattered Pillar. Had to pull the mobs back to the stairs where Xoti was in the back and the other two where up front.

 

On the subject of what is fun I've found most everything is pretty fun. If fun is defined as the ability to solo the game then I'm not qualified to answer as solo play requires cheese or at least abuse of the AI in order to pull it off and I don't find that fun.



#82
1TTFFSSE

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Fun is definitely seeing any reasonable mob - especially enemy mage or priest - the types that can wreak havoc on your part explode in lots of blood in 1-2 active ability hits so dual-wield rogue or assassin is still the most fun for me.  



#83
Wompoo

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Use the game mechanics: barrels, sparklers, choke points, Berath's blessing, scrolls, potions or whatever.... they are legit in game, don't fall into the trap of limiting your playthrough if you are enjoying yourself. A good game gives you the tools to make the game fun for you, and if you can have fun and kick its backside on a triple crown run or designer party with a Chanter summoner army or as a pacifist healer buffer, then that is all that matters. I absolutely LOVE CHEESE in games and the best iso Crpg of all time (imho) BG 2 came with mega lashings of it and it was glorious.


Edited by Wompoo, 15 June 2018 - 07:18 AM.

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#84
Tigranes

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A big part of CRPGs is using the cheese that is available to you, I agree. These days, though, games throw so many bonuses and microtransactions and rewards at you that it just destroys any sense of balanced challenge, so you have to set some limits. It often becomes a good idea to ignore pre-order bonuses because they are disproportionately good to satisfy people who paid more money; and stuff like Berath is ridiculous as well. BG2 had many ways to cheese but it didn't let you start with 21 Strength or a free +2 sword or whatever.


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#85
mant2si

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A big part of CRPGs is using the cheese that is available to you, I agree. These days, though, games throw so many bonuses and microtransactions and rewards at you that it just destroys any sense of balanced challenge, so you have to set some limits. It often becomes a good idea to ignore pre-order bonuses because they are disproportionately good to satisfy people who paid more money; and stuff like Berath is ridiculous as well. BG2 had many ways to cheese but it didn't let you start with 21 Strength or a free +2 sword or whatever.

In BG2 you can roll stats :D, Paladin can roll 96 - 99, and make near all attributes 18 (I'm sure you re-roll your character until you get near max possible roll, and you never play with 76 roll :D)
In DOS/DOS 2 existed lonely wolf perk
In BG you can find best armor in the game, in second city, after 5 min of play
In Tyrany you can up parry to 100 before first battle
In POE1 - exists Paladin defensive/accuracy bonuses, in late game no one can hit them (no one carry why paladins started with free blessings)
In IWD you can enable/disable HOF for additional XP

 


Edited by mant2si, 15 June 2018 - 07:53 AM.

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#86
Wompoo

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A big part of CRPGs is using the cheese that is available to you, I agree. These days, though, games throw so many bonuses and microtransactions and rewards at you that it just destroys any sense of balanced challenge, so you have to set some limits. It often becomes a good idea to ignore pre-order bonuses because they are disproportionately good to satisfy people who paid more money; and stuff like Berath is ridiculous as well. BG2 had many ways to cheese but it didn't let you start with 21 Strength or a free +2 sword or whatever.

Really, someone prepared to roll for hours could get that type of bonus at the character creation screen, straight 18s in BG 2 (ignoring race)... paying more money for a product to gain an advantage is really not an issue in a single player game (unless this was an EA game and then christ help us, as content would be behind a pay wall delivered via loot boxes), especially PoE 2, so I have no idea why you even mention that. Many classics have used bonus stat point systems (BG, BG2 and DA:O for example, it was the player's choice to use/collect them, as it is PoE 2) it's not new... if you don't like them don't use them, that simple (an old reply but a valid one)... I do hope this isn't about getting rid of game features for bigger achievement bragging rights.



#87
Tigranes

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But why would you sit there and roll for hours and hours? Why do that to yourself? I don't care about "fairness", it's a single player game. If I decide I want 24 Strength I wouldn't sit there and roll, I'd just use the cheat console and save myself some time.

 

Games should be designed for good, balanced challenge, and then after that, if people want to cheat themselves gold by whatever means, or if they want to hamstring themselves for additional challenge, that's perfectly fine too.

 

Couldn't care less for achievements, they are an awful invention made to abuse people's completionist tendencies and I would be happy if they never existed.


Edited by Tigranes, 15 June 2018 - 08:55 AM.


#88
knownastherat

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How games should be designed is where we, all of us, differ. In other words, there is no law of nature governing how they should be designed. There are some principles drawing from behavioral psychology perhaps but at the end there is no clear and simple recipe for how to make let's say a piece of interactive art appealing to the target audience. 

 

Let's assume we all have our opinions, priorities, dis/likes, tastes and there is indeed no truth to be found about how a game should be designed, especially with regards to balance. How to reach a compromise, how to satisfy as many of the target audience as possible? From where I sit, give them tools and mechanics so they can tailor their own experiences with such piece of art. Because how else? 

 

Why would anyone roll for hours to get a bonus or why would anyone use "an axe which one-shots everything" could be an interesting psychological question, but it's not an argument for certain game design.  The developers, and perhaps they've done it, should know what kind of audience they target but should not, at least in my opinion, try to let's say moralize and normalize such audience through the game design.

 

I realize developers have very difficult calls to make in this regard and their ideas how something should work are always confronted with an economic point of view. I could even understand if the developers were stubborn and wanted to make a piece of art according to their, not their audience, liking. What I cannot understand is why some in the audience make demands on the game design which will restrict others.  If something in-game is OP, broken, cheese, but it's not mandatory and it's not a bug, well .. live and let live. 


Edited by knownastherat, 15 June 2018 - 09:44 AM.

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#89
baldurs_gate_2

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But why would you sit there and roll for hours and hours? Why do that to yourself? I don't care about "fairness", it's a single player game. If I decide I want 24 Strength I wouldn't sit there and roll, I'd just use the cheat console and save myself some time.

 

Games should be designed for good, balanced challenge, and then after that, if people want to cheat themselves gold by whatever means, or if they want to hamstring themselves for additional challenge, that's perfectly fine too.

 

Couldn't care less for achievements, they are an awful invention made to abuse people's completionist tendencies and I would be happy if they never existed.

There is no need to roll hours and hours. You just need to know, what is the max roll you can get and start the game with any stats and change it later with EE-Keeper to the max roll.



#90
Amentep

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Thus I demand for the term "cheese" to be moderated in similar fashion personal attacks are.

 

I'm not necessarily representative of the moderator team, but if we were to start moderating meaningless (or at least highly subjective) terms, I'd vote for "immersive" before "cheese"

 

That said, neither term or their (mis)use is the point of this thread.  Tastes differ on what fun is; one person's fun is another's cheese.


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#91
Wompoo

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The roll was an example, as a maxed roll  for say Sorcerer would be a waste of time, and I think the longest I ever rolled was for a mage about 30 mins (Human straight 18s which I wasn't actually after, as I missed clicked and lost the earlier roll which was good enough)... these days I just use EE auto roller (others may use EE Keeper).  If this was a competitive game or the feature broke the game outright or was an actual bug sure remove it fix it whatever. My rule is if the feature does not impact my enjoyment of the game directly and is an option that I can choose to ignore then its all good.

 

edit:

and I appoligise for going off topic


Edited by Wompoo, 15 June 2018 - 11:13 AM.


#92
Myztik

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How many blessings do you use and how often do you abuse choke points

And the good thing about my builds are they involve 0 cheesing or abuse of game mechanics whatsoever. I like to have straight up slugging fights with no stealth cheese, no choke point cheese, no op arcana scrolls, no op alchemy potions. Just a clean build + the right equipments.
How do you beat the double Boars, the tigers + Drake fight, and the hordes of skeleton archer/mage in the beginning of the game? I just don't see how one character, regardless of build, with starting equipment and missing item slots tanks four higher level creatures with no strategic use of fight mechanics on PotD

By abusing this games silly AI. I cleared them with a lvl 4 ghostheart/Ascendant by using a barrel next to the stairs as a chokepoint where I summoned my bear. Then I focused on charming their heavy hitters while shooting at the wurms.

Drake and one wurm was pulled separately by using sparkcrackers from the south edge near the gunpowder barrel, one shot with the Arqeubus on the barrel hurt them badly and they came at me up the stairs.

But yeah, without any kind of cheesy tactic I very much doubt that it's even possible.

 

I know it's possible, but the person I was quoting said he didn't abuse chokepoints



#93
Ichthyic

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here I thought levels with doors and/or long narrow corridors were often specifically designed TO cause chokepoints.

 



#94
baldurs_gate_2

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How many blessings do you use and how often do you abuse choke points

And the good thing about my builds are they involve 0 cheesing or abuse of game mechanics whatsoever. I like to have straight up slugging fights with no stealth cheese, no choke point cheese, no op arcana scrolls, no op alchemy potions. Just a clean build + the right equipments.
How do you beat the double Boars, the tigers + Drake fight, and the hordes of skeleton archer/mage in the beginning of the game? I just don't see how one character, regardless of build, with starting equipment and missing item slots tanks four higher level creatures with no strategic use of fight mechanics on PotD

By abusing this games silly AI. I cleared them with a lvl 4 ghostheart/Ascendant by using a barrel next to the stairs as a chokepoint where I summoned my bear. Then I focused on charming their heavy hitters while shooting at the wurms.

Drake and one wurm was pulled separately by using sparkcrackers from the south edge near the gunpowder barrel, one shot with the Arqeubus on the barrel hurt them badly and they came at me up the stairs.

But yeah, without any kind of cheesy tactic I very much doubt that it's even possible.

 

I know it's possible, but the person I was quoting said he didn't abuse chokepoints

 

Easy with a Paladin / Rogue combo. Use Arbalest or Arquebuse in sneak mode with Flames of Devotion for one free shot what starts combat. The second shot should kill the enemy. Now use smoke veil out and the enemies always deaggro and you can kill the next one. I did it that way.


Edited by baldurs_gate_2, 16 June 2018 - 07:52 AM.


#95
DihmWhit

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here I thought levels with doors and/or long narrow corridors were often specifically designed TO cause chokepoints.


I believe in the real world they call it 'tactics'
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#96
Crucis

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But why would you sit there and roll for hours and hours? Why do that to yourself? I don't care about "fairness", it's a single player game. If I decide I want 24 Strength I wouldn't sit there and roll, I'd just use the cheat console and save myself some time.

 

Games should be designed for good, balanced challenge, and then after that, if people want to cheat themselves gold by whatever means, or if they want to hamstring themselves for additional challenge, that's perfectly fine too.

 

Couldn't care less for achievements, they are an awful invention made to abuse people's completionist tendencies and I would be happy if they never existed.

 

Re: Achievements, I agree 100%. 

 

Regarding the amount of gold in game,  personally I prefer that the game have lots and lots of gold.  I guess that I don't like feeling limited in gold, or at least not overly so.  I don't necessarily want a bottomless bag of holding of gold, but I'm not bothered to end the game with one or two hundred thousand in gold either.

 

 

One of the complaints that I have with the game is all the generic Superb and Legendary weapons and armors and shields in the game.  This is my practical take on them.  Whether those statuses are due to true enchantments or are a measure of the quality of the manufacturing of the items, it's costly to produce such amazingly good stuff.  And I seriously doubt that any of these nations would be mass producing such high quality, super costly equipment for their soldiers.  IMO, Superb and Legendary items should be limited to unique items.

 

Beyond that, I get that perhaps they were added to the game as a way to provide the player with more money.  But why not just give them the gold, rather than these silly "unrealistic" (I use the term very loosely) generic items?  I gotta tell you that when I get to some boss' main treasure vault (particularly a dragon's), I'd like to see some big honking piles of gold.  On top of that, many times what you see on screen actually *IS* a big honking pile of gold, but in the chests, there's very little gold to be found.  So, in short...  SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!



#97
mant2si

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Soo :D I updated my Cipher / Ranger build, now it can solo Hosongo without cheesing and .... it look more attractive and fun, you can find it there https://forums.obsid...han-soul-hunter, but this Is still a concept and I need update some information about 4th weapon and some items 

Sry for my bad English 

Fun starts after ~ 5:00
Attributes screen ~ 1.48 - 1.49





 


Edited by mant2si, 16 June 2018 - 04:35 PM.

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#98
Ophiuchus

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Warlock (Berserker/Wizard) is quickly becoming my favorite combination due to its flexibility and sheer speed: I can go from stealth Empowered fireballs/missiles to trigger Bloodlust, then stack my buffs and go into the fray with swords, flails, and axes; hang back with dual pistols and casting; load up on gear with Bloodied effects (especially the Whitewitch mask); beeline to backliners with Fleet Feet. A number of PLs do feel a bit unrewarding, but this is more of a sum of its parts kind of deal.

I've also had good fun with Shadowdancer (Rogue/Shattered Pillar) for its speed and mobility, though it's mostly in stasis barring cosmetic slots.
 

 

Soo :D I updated my Cipher / Ranger build, now it can solo Hosongo without cheesing and .... it look more attractive and fun, you can find it there https://forums.obsid...han-soul-hunter, but this Is still a concept and I need update some information about 4th weapon and some items 

Sry for my bad English 

Fun starts after ~ 5:00
Attributes screen ~ 1.48 - 1.49





 

Nice.


Edited by Ophiuchus, 17 June 2018 - 11:35 PM.





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