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What I mean is I don't like a chanter class focusing on summons where it summons a bunch more - the swarm of wyrms or whatever - it just doesn't feel right to me.

I'd rather the summons just be stronger, last longer, and there be some other penalty - but summons are always crazy strong in games like these so it's still a nightmare to balance.

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The fact that skeletons have engagement is important. Just simply stop enemy movement. Even if they did 0 damage they would still be useful as very effective stoppers.  

 

Yeah, but even if that's true... you would still get better mileage out of Troubador/Skald.

How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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No, not in this case because 6 engagement slots can stop more enemies than 3 engagement slots.

 

But Skeletons who haven't spawned yet (due to phrase cost) don't have any engagement.

 

24 second 'recharge' and a 8 second or so base duration (times whatever you Int bonus is probably 50%). That's beyond awful.

Edited by Maxzero
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As others have said the changes are dumb. They should have nerfed the overpowered summons rather than the subclass itself. At this point Troubadours are better summoners (Hell you could make a better summoner build out of a sklad)

 

They need to revert it back to -1 or even +0 cost for summons, and reduce the effect of the chants imo. Maybe 20% less effecitve chants or less linger time. Increase the cost for other invocations is pointless, beckoners never used them. But lowering the power of their chants would be an effect that wouldn't ruin the class, but would keep it in check.  

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Other subclasses might be able to cast their summons more often, but that's because they need to.

 

Here's more pics of my team of Beckoners in Pahowane. Level 9 against level 16, I don't remember. (Sorry for the poor image quality)

 

 

 

CbanM5a.png

 

 

 

 

 

WLetDgy.png

 

 

I feel sorry for the people who can no longer enjoy the subclass after the nerf.

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I also think that it's still good. Twice the amount of summons is a very powerful feat, even if they are smaller, don't last as long and have less health. The body blocking alone and the doubled dps make them very useful.

 

After all subclasses should be designed in a way that the advantage comes with drawbacks so they are not more powerful than a vanilla class. And the lesser health didn't balance out the double amount of summons.

 

If the Troubadour ist the better summoner now then I guess that's just a sign that he is overpowered. Because there's also no reason to pick a vanilla Chanter over a Troubadour - which shouldn't be the case.

 

I just think that going from -1 to +1 after already nerfed summon duration is too much "sledge hammer style".

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I also think that it's still good. Twice the amount of summons is a very powerful feat, even if they are smaller, don't last as long and have less health. The body blocking alone and the doubled dps make them very useful.

 

After all subclasses should be designed in a way that the advantage comes with drawbacks so they are not more powerful than a vanilla class. And the lesser health didn't balance out the double amount of summons.

 

If the Troubadour ist the better summoner now then I guess that's just a sign that he is overpowered. Because there's also no reason to pick a vanilla Chanter over a Troubadour - which shouldn't be the case.

 

I just think that going from -1 to +1 after already nerfed summon duration is too much "sledge hammer style".

 

Considering that the Troubadour wasn't changed in the patch and no one thought he was OP before yet he has become OP post patch is interesting.

 

What drawbacks do Paladin or the Devoted sub classes have? Is there any reason to take a base Cipher over Ascendant?

 

The nerf was bad because it make the Beckoner bad at the very thing it was supposed to be good at. It would be like Devoted getting +2 Penetration with their favoured weapon but also +15% recovery with said weapon (ala Sharpshooter).

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Paladin has different disposition, that's their drawback, Devoted has penalty use other weapons, that's the drawback. No reason to take a base Chanter/Cipher over Troubadour/Ascendant, it's an issue.

 

But it's not a noticible one.

 

Devoted has a penalty to use other weapons but why would it ever? +2 Pen means you pretty much never have to switch. Just pick swords and you will always have a cutting edge weapon and another +2 pen on demand.

 

About as many people pick base Fighter as pick base Chanter/Cipher: none.

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Paladin has different disposition, that's their drawback, Devoted has penalty use other weapons, that's the drawback. No reason to take a base Chanter/Cipher over Troubadour/Ascendant, it's an issue.

But it's not a noticible one.

 

Devoted has a penalty to use other weapons but why would it ever? +2 Pen means you pretty much never have to switch. Just pick swords and you will always have a cutting edge weapon and another +2 pen on demand.

 

About as many people pick base Fighter as pick base Chanter/Cipher: none.

Where did u get the statistics that how many people use base fighter, how many people use base chanter/cipher? I’m curious about that.

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Paladin has different disposition, that's their drawback, Devoted has penalty use other weapons, that's the drawback. No reason to take a base Chanter/Cipher over Troubadour/Ascendant, it's an issue.

But it's not a noticible one.

 

Devoted has a penalty to use other weapons but why would it ever? +2 Pen means you pretty much never have to switch. Just pick swords and you will always have a cutting edge weapon and another +2 pen on demand.

 

About as many people pick base Fighter as pick base Chanter/Cipher: none.

Where did u get the statistics that how many people use base fighter, how many people use base chanter/cipher? I’m curious about that.

 

 

It's not stats but logic. If there is no reason to take base Chanter over one of the sub classes what reason is there to take base Fighter over one of it's subclasses?

 

If Troubadour is a problem because it outshines base Chanter then Devoted is also a problem because it outshines it's base class too.

 

A drawback that has no impact is not much of a drawback.

Edited by Maxzero
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It's not stats but logic. If there is no reason to take base Chanter over one of the sub classes what reason is there to take base Fighter over one of it's subclasses?

 

That's one of the worst examples for logic thinking that I ever saw - because there's no logic at all.

It's like saying "Because Bill is smarter than his older brother Ted I also have to be smarter than my older brother Pete."

 

By the way: the Devoted gets -10 ACC for non-proficient weapons. That is a significant drawback especially if you have no meta knowledge.

 

The Troubadour has longer linger time than a vanilla chanter and pays +1 for invocations. That would have been balanced (or that is at least an approach to balance, albeit a weak one because the +1 drawback doesn't scale well at higher levels and becomes negligible). But he can also decide to switch to double phrase accumulation speed on top - which makes the +1 invocation cost as counterweight really laughable especially at higher levels where you need more phrases. All in all the flexibility that is provided with the modal which helps you to easily circumvent the disadvantage is what tips off the balance.

 

Also several people noted in beta and after realease that there's zero reason to pick vanilla Chanter over Troubadour. Just because you didn't read or hear about that doesn't mean that this is "suddenly" the case. It was always that case that the Troubadour is overpowered (at least when compared to a vanilla Chanter). And that is not how subclasses are supposed to work. They should be equal in power like Josh planned them to be. So in my opinion: if the Troubadour is a better summoner than the Beckoner AND there is no reason to pick a vanilla Chanter over a Troubadour then the blancing issue lies with the Troubadour, not the Beckoner. And that's logic.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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It's not stats but logic. If there is no reason to take base Chanter over one of the sub classes what reason is there to take base Fighter over one of it's subclasses?

That's one of the worst examples for logic thinking that I ever saw - because there's no logic at all.

It's like saying "Because Bill is smarter than his older brother Ted I also have to be smarter than my older brother Pete."

 

By the way: the Devoted gets -10 ACC for non-proficient weapons. That is a significant drawback especially if you have no meta knowledge.

 

The Troubadour has longer linger time than a vanilla chanter and pays +1 for invocations. That would have been balanced (or that is at least an approach to balance, albeit a weak one because the +1 drawback doesn't scale well at higher levels and becomes negligible). But he can also decide to switch to double phrase accumulation speed on top - which makes the +1 invocation cost as counterweight really laughable especially at higher levels where you need more phrases. All in all the flexibility that is provided with the modal which helps you to easily circumvent the disadvantage is what tips off the balance.

 

Also several people noted in beta and after realease that there's zero reason to pick vanilla Chanter over Troubadour. Just because you didn't read or hear about that doesn't mean that this is "suddenly" the case. It was always that case that the Troubadour is overpowered (at least when compared to a vanilla Chanter). And that is not how subclasses are supposed to work. They should be equal in power like Josh planned them to be. So in my opinion: if the Troubadour is a better summoner than the Beckoner AND there is no reason to pick a vanilla Chanter over a Troubadour then the blancing issue lies with the Troubadour, not the Beckoner. And that's logic.

 

 

Since when are we balancing around noobs? Do you think noobs gives a hoot about phrase modals and such? This stuff only matter in PoTD anyway you can finish normal difficulty by rolling your face on the keyboard.

 

It's not even close to significant drawback. It never comes into place at all. Devoted get +2 Pen and crit damage for free.

 

Troubadour has to give up half his phrases to get the extra invocations. And considering how people carry about the fire lash chant and the healing chant (to the point both got nerfed) that actually is a significant downside that is completely unavoidable (unlike Devoted's).

 

What's logical about overnerfing the Beckoner's summoning ability then comparing it to Troubadour's summoning ability and complaining that Troubadour's summoning is OP because it's now stronger then Beckoners? 

 

It's like crushing a Ferrari with a car crusher then complaining how the Civic now looks better.

Edited by Maxzero
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They shouldn't have made the changes they did to beckoner. However the fact is that troubadour is overpowered at the moment and so the other options (beckoner, chanter base class and skald) look less attractive. Though skald is still ok for some specific builds.

Troubadour definitely needs a small nerf. And in fact that's the problem with many other options at the moment.

The weaker classes are not necessarily weak, just that they feel sub par because of some ridiculously over powered stuff.

Nerf that and the so called weaker options will feel better.

I'd personally have preferred if Beckoner summons were the same in number as regular chanters but had better stats and/or lasted longer. Would have been easier to balance them as well.

I do hope they relook the nerf.

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Having Priest/Beckoner mercenary as heal&buff bot/summoner and even in POTD 1.1 it works fine.
lvl10 atm using wurms for DPS, and 6 wurms do a lot of dmg if they can penetrate armor (not always).
Only downside of the +1 phrase cost is that you need chant 1 phrase to summun your minions if the spell is as high as your  personal power lvl. And that is not that big deal as I need to buff my party with ring of protection & concetration buff first. 
Wurms last long enough to recast them right after they are gone. (you don't summon them to tank but to do dmg from range into save spot so they last they their full summon time usually).

So they were nerfed but DPS potential of twice as many summons is still big. I still find beckoners ok, atleast in multiclass with specific purpose.

Edited by Farsha
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Since when are we balancing around noobs?

"We" don't balance anything. Obsidian does. And they would be stupid if they didn't balance around new or one-time players because that's the vast majority of their customers.

 

It's not even close to significant drawback. It never comes into place at all. Devoted get +2 Pen and crit damage for free.

That's not true at all. They have to decide if they go ranged or melee, if they pick a single damage weapon they are screwed against immune foes and if they find an awesome weapon which isn't one they are devoted to they bite themselves. Troubadours just switch the Brisk Recitation modal on or off how they please to get the best out of every situation.

 

What's logical about overnerfing the Beckoner's summoning ability [...]

Not much - as I said the nerf is to harsh. But it's also nonsense to say that Beckoner is worthless now. By the way the people who nerfed the Beckoner and me (who complains about Troubadour) are not the same persons. Since we are not connected via telepathy there are no common logical thoughts between us.

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Since when are we balancing around noobs?

"We" don't balance anything. Obsidian does. And they would be stupid if they didn't balance around new or one-time players because that's the vast majority of their customers.

 

It's not even close to significant drawback. It never comes into place at all. Devoted get +2 Pen and crit damage for free.

That's not true at all. They have to decide if they go ranged or melee, if they pick a single damage weapon they are screwed against immune foes and if they find an awesome weapon which isn't one they are devoted to they bite themselves. Troubadours just switch the Brisk Recitation modal on or off how they please to get the best out of every situation.

 

What's logical about overnerfing the Beckoner's summoning ability [...]

Not much - as I said the nerf is to harsh. But it's also nonsense to say that Beckoner is worthless now. By the way the people who nerfed the Beckoner and me (who complains about Troubadour) are not the same persons. Since we are not connected via telepathy there are no common logical thoughts between us.

 

 

Come on the only place where the difference between Beckoner and Troubadour will be noticed is PotD and noobs are not playing PotD. Again on classic this makes no difference at all.

 

Immunes? Don't make me laugh. Since when has that stopped Devoted? The -10 accuracy only matters at the start (and accurate weapons getting +5 base halves that loss anyway) and you won't find any immunes early on anyway.

 

Devoted for all intents and purposes does not have a downside. That why every man and his dog started with Devoted in 1.0 with no meta knowledge and didn't have a care in the world. Now the meta knowledge is out now anyway (hint go swords) Devoted downside matters even less.

 

Actually the Beckoner is useless for summoning compared to Troubadour. Either way no doubt Obsidian seeing this will nerf Troubadour so it's worse then the Beckoner and then we can all roll melee beatsticks and auto attack our way to victory. I can't wait.

 

There is such a thing as too much balance.

 

It's probably why I am finding the Pathfinder RPG beta character building much more fun and creative at the moment (despite half the content not being implemented yet). The difficulty curve makes much more sense too.

Edited by Maxzero
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Noobs don't play PoTD. I guess this makes by far the majority of players "noobs".

Sometimes people take playing games waaay to seriously. Playing PoTD may give ingame achievements but, well they don't mean anything. I wish people would stop acting as if playing a game on the hardest level is some achievement in itself. Part of the issue is the incredibly condescending attitude to other players who don't live up to their ridiculous expectations. Hence the term "noobs" as if these people are somehow complete failures in life....

 

BTW the gaming industry wouldn't exist if not for the "noobs"

The percentage of hard core gamers is tiny, and certainly not able to support the industry in any way.

So it makes perfect sense for companies to pay more attention to the noobs than anyone else.

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Honestly they should of never put multi classing into the series. Based on past pnp games like 3.5 dnd and pathfinder it is extremely hard and nigh impossible to make a balance encounters. Exceptionally when people are looking to power game the system to trivialize encounters.

 

Why are users saying chanters are busted when they intentionally make cheesy builds with 6 chanters in the group? You could make any class build with any 6 classes and call them op.

 

It seems that people want to make the chanter class into a 3rd tier buffer that you would dip into for hireling and never want to roll for the warden.

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