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With 1.1, Beckoners now have +1 phrases to summon instead of -1 phrases ; and lose abjuration immunity. As far as I'm concerned this ends the usefulness of Beckoners as a subclass. 

 

Relative to base class, Beckoners get twice the number of creatures per summon, but they are weaker and don't last as long. And they take longer to get out on the field thanks to the +1 phrase to summon change.

 

Relative to Skald, the same as above applies; but Skald can put out offensive invocations earlier and get some return on phrases from critical hits.

 

Relative to Troubadour, Chanters have the same +1 penalty, but Troubadours can crank out phrases much faster due to Brisk Recitation, and therefore get summons out quickly; and have more versatility if not using Brisk Recitation.

 

The only raw 'advantage' to Beckoners now is a numeric double of the summoned creatures, but this is offset by the reduced duration and strength. I don't find this to be a superior advantage. Beckoners also have lost the situational abjuration immunity.

 

Obsidian, I understand the desire to balance, but this is not how you do it. If you wanted a meaningful balance/nerf, that would have been to drop -1 phrases to 0 phrases to summon (i.e, same as base class) and leave the abjuration immunity in place.

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How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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I agree that the disadvantage shouldn't have been summon-related. Right now Beckoners are worse summoners than Troubadours, which doesn't make sense, since that is the whole identity concept for the Beckoner subclass. They should have nerfed something else.

 

Maybe they could have reduced linger for their chants -- basically the opposite of Troubadour. That would allow them to fill the summoning role, but they'd have a significant downside.

Edited by TheMetaphysician
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Beckoner's summons are only smaller and have less health. The rest (defenses, damage etc.) is the same.

 

So basically you get more firepower for a shorter time.

 

Beckoner was really strong. You can "CC + damage" whole groups even on PotD with six skeletons. CC because enemies will be occupied. It's like a very fluid and flexible, ever controllable CC effect that also deals damage. The skels even have engagement. Then use such many bodies with Spark the Souls...

 

It had to be nerfed somehow. But I agree that going from -1 to +1 is hasty and weird. That's 12 seconds more between summonings!

 

But then I also think: doesn't the first summoning of a horde of creatures decide the encounter anyway?

 

I don't like beckoners anyway - too hard to balance.

 

Also phantoms blow

I like your superconstructive approach...

Edited by Boeroer
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Beckoner's summons are only smaller and have less health. The rest (defenses, damage etc.) is the same.

 

So basically you get more firepower for a shorter time.

 

Beckoner was really strong. You can "CC + damage" whole groups even on PotD with six skeletons. CC because enemies will be occupied. It's like a very fluid and flexible, ever controllable CC effect that also deals damage. The skels even have engagement. Then use such many bodies with Spark the Souls...

 

It had to be nerfed somehow. But I agree that going from -1 to +1 is hasty and weird. That's 12 seconds more between summonings!

 

But then I also think: doesn't the first summoning of a horde of creatures decide the encounter anyway?

 

 

I don't like beckoners anyway - too hard to balance.

 

Also phantoms blow

I like your superconstructive approach...

Not always especially with 1.1.

 

The fact now that Troubadours are better Summoners (and everything else) then Beckoner says it all really.

 

My changes

 

-1 to Summon Invo

+1 to all other Invo

-50% summon damage and health, -30% duration

 

Let them have their cheap expendable Summons they were sold as having and take away non summon abilities.

 

Definately a work in progress.

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My beckoner seemed to be alright still. Skeletons are pretty weak sauce but ogres seem fine with high int. I'll of course need to check on it a bit more but it seemed okay, I just think a major problem is how strong troubador is in general with brisk recital.

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Hope they relook them. Didn't make much sense considering Troubadour and Skald were better than them in the first place. As others have said, don't nerf their summoning skills - that's the entire point of the class...

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I'm not completely sure this was the wrong stat to tweak. I mean, Beckoners will open all fights with a summon, right? So basically this was a nerf to all other active abilities, without actually nerfing them?

 

I know it's semantics, I'm not familiar with Beckoners past the tutorial island and never played with one before.

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I don't think that Beckoners can now start with a summoning invocation. Correct me if I'm wrong but afaik Chanters get some phrases at the start of combat - but now the summons of a Beckoner cost more phrases than you get right at the start. So they can't summon right away...?

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I don't think that Beckoners can now start with a summoning invocation. Correct me if I'm wrong but afaik Chanters get some phrases at the start of combat - but now the summons of a Beckoner cost more phrases than you get right at the start. So they can't summon right away...?

 

This is correct.

 

You can summon a lower PL Summon straight away since initial phrase count equals your highest current Invocation phrase cost so getting Ogre summon would give you four initial phrases so you could summon base Wyrms or Skeletons straight away).

 

Troubadours are great in this situation because they only need 3 seconds to get that extra phrase whereas Beckoners become clunky as hell.

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The weird factor is high.

Beckoner is supposed to be good with summons, but now is not that great. And you could reach better result with Trubaour.

 

They could do it some other way.

Like get discount on summons, but +1 on all other invocations.

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Beckoner's summons are only smaller and have less health. The rest (defenses, damage etc.) is the same.

 

So basically you get more firepower for a shorter time.

 

Beckoner was really strong. You can "CC + damage" whole groups even on PotD with six skeletons. CC because enemies will be occupied. It's like a very fluid and flexible, ever controllable CC effect that also deals damage. The skels even have engagement. Then use such many bodies with Spark the Souls...

 

It had to be nerfed somehow. But I agree that going from -1 to +1 is hasty and weird. That's 12 seconds more between summonings!

 

But then I also think: doesn't the first summoning of a horde of creatures decide the encounter anyway?

 

I don't like beckoners anyway - too hard to balance.

 

Also phantoms blow

I like your superconstructive approach...

Not always especially with 1.1.

 

The fact now that Troubadours are better Summoners (and everything else) then Beckoner says it all really.

 

My changes

 

-1 to Summon Invo

+1 to all other Invo

-50% summon damage and health, -30% duration

 

Let them have their cheap expendable Summons they were sold as having and take away non summon abilities.

 

Definately a work in progress.

 

 

This makes more sense to me than what they've done.

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They could do it some other way.

Like get discount on summons, but +1 on all other invocations.

 

I don't think that solves the balancing issue though. Constantly spamming summons was already the optimal strategy for Beckoners, so increasing the cost of all other invocations wouldn't hurt them at all.

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I think the right summoner would be, one summon as base chanter, but with superior stats (like +50% damage and Health and peharps +30% duration) and the penalty of +1 cost could work somehow.

 

Summon class to me is a class with strong summons and not with "swarm like" tactics.

 

Edit: The increase cost would create a balance when summoning a dragon +50% most powerful...

Edited by Lótus Haddock

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They could do it some other way.

Like get discount on summons, but +1 on all other invocations.

 

I don't think that solves the balancing issue though. Constantly spamming summons was already the optimal strategy for Beckoners, so increasing the cost of all other invocations wouldn't hurt them at all.

 

Maybe.

Main point: If you pick Beckoner, your summoning is top tier.

 

One path is For the Horde. And just lower damage enought to make it balanced -25% or -50%.

The ther path is stronger binding, like Summons having longer duration and more health (but same damage). +some debuffs to blast invocations. And abujration immunity (strong bind).

 

Actually stronger binding could be more fun. SInce it drops problems with pathing and crowd. Longer duration could leave more space for doing something else. But that sounds like buff and ease of use.

 

They could always do alternative upgrade for sceletors to make Horde Sceletons or use Chant for that.

Edited by evilcat
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Honestly the way I munch through low level (supposedly hard) content with my party of 5 beckoners, if anything, tells me that these guys were busted before.

 

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They could do it some other way.

Like get discount on summons, but +1 on all other invocations.

 

I don't think that solves the balancing issue though. Constantly spamming summons was already the optimal strategy for Beckoners, so increasing the cost of all other invocations wouldn't hurt them at all.

 

 

This is right, and the key problem. That's why I thought the only way to go is to impose a penalty to phrases rather than invocations -- it is the only thing other than summoning that the Beckoner actually relies on.

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I must be doing something different. I was really just using the extra summons as a distraction for the casters/ranged while my muscle worked their way through everything. If they killed the caster, awesome. If not, it usually buys me enough time to kill their meat shields with my melee and ranger/barbarian.

 

It's actually been working very well so far.

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One path is For the Horde. And just lower damage enought to make it balanced -25% or -50%.

 

-50% is to much ... this would cancel out the benefits from having double summons and leaves you with only disadvantages, so that Troubadour is again the better summoner

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How well is that working for fire-immune creatures? 

How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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