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Let's look at D&D which has some of the most complex class and multiclass systems of any game currently available. What spot is the fighter in? It is almost always used as either a minor multiclass or an even multiclass. This is because of stats, feats and the ability to wield more weapons/armor, nothing more. There is no specific fighting style and a pure fighter class usually does very poorly unless he is in a high enchantment world. And even then there are so many more better options than a pure fighter. In the end though. Is fighter bad? No. But is it interesting? No. I think by far the POE fighter is more interesting than a fighter in D&D, even more so in POEII. Are there better options? Perhaps yes and maybe after 1.1 he is weaker and only viable as multiclass if you want to min max or play for efficiency. 

 

The problem is not that the fighter is going to be worse, the problem is that it doesn't have it's own role to play that some other class can't do as well.

I agree, but the fighter sort of "did" have a major role until this patch, which was basically massive burst AoE melee damage. Playing along the lines of some sort of "weapon master". But that was removed in the nerfs. Something that was a bit problematic with that role though was that it was not exactly amplified by being a single class fighter; The multiclass variant could access all the things you needed. 

 

I saw a great suggestion(cant remember in which thread) that perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the damage back onto charge again, but as a "upgrade" somewhere in the power levels 8 or 9, which is exclusive to single class fighters. I personally view the fix of cleaving stance as a bugfix, rather than a nerf. Self-triggering abilities is a bit silly, in general. That still leaves multiclass fighters in a bit of a struggle though since when it comes to multiclassing, they are outperformed by several other martial multiclass options.

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I mean, it's certainly not the end of the world; as has been said, there will be more patches.  But I had spent a lot of time & effort combing through the wikis & game files about items/abilities/mechanics and finally decided on a class/build I was happy with and had just started my playthrough.  Now both the classes I picked for my Multiclass (Nalpazca/Soul Blade) got significantly nerfed.  Along with that, as far as I can determine they nerfed every single item I was going to use (Chromoprismatic staff, 2h helm, etc.).  Now, maybe I can beat the whole game before the patch goes live if I un-install the Beta and marathon it?  But I don't like feeling rushed in a game, I try to do everything available in a single playthrough.

 

It's pretty disappointing to me personally because I invested a couple of weeks into researching the nitty gritty details of the build I wanted to make, and now it's worse in every aspect I can think of.  Shouldn't that feel disappointing? I tend to understand balance patches when they are comprised of give & take, buffing under-performing things & nerfing the over-performing ones.  Instead, this patch nerfs everything related to the build I wanted and replaces it with nothing.  If that ain't a kick in the nuts, IDK what is.  

 

So what you are saying is that you spend weeks looking into one of the most powerful and broken builds and are now disappointed when it is no longer?

 

And without even trying it out and see if it is actually so underpowered against the rest of the game, you are giving up on it? 

 

Monks were so overpowered at launch they mad the entire game easy mode.  They needed a nerf.

 

 

Well, I like to min/max down to the minuetea, that's how I enjoy games.  And it's not like 2h builds, or anything involving a Cipher, were the most OP thing in the game to begin with.  And I agree, there were many aspects of Monks that needed a nerf.  But the Cipher changes?   And 99.9% of the unique items in the game?  Why did all of that need nerfs?  That's more my issue.

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In a second note, I haven't given up on the character, but I have basically given up on using a 2h weapon. My favorite character archetype is the old "gish" style character, with a 2h weapon. With the changes to the Chromo staff & WotEP, 2hs might as well not exist for dps purposes. This is essentially what I'm complaining about. Things that were not OP compared to other available options were nerfed, seemingly due to the simple decision to "NERF EVERYTHING!!!"

 

Edit: forgot to mention the 2h hat nerf thrown in on top of the rest. Just unneeded, all of it.

Edited by Seroster01

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I agree with and support 99% of the changes but I'm still probably going to shelve the game for a bit after this patch just because it's clear that Ciphers are generally broken now and aren't getting fixed with this pass.

 

I said before that the game was far too easy generally and Ciphers far too weak as a class, with the result that Ciphers could kind of coast, but that if the difficulty were fixed, Ciphers would get broken en passant, as it were: any enhancements to difficult would bring out the Cipher's failures in sharp relief.

 

Now that PotD has enhanced the difficulty, I'm finding I was correct in that prediction. It's not just the two nerfs to cipher powers (body attunement and time parasite) with the patch. Now that the game is actually difficult, the uselessness of other Cipher abilities is far more obvious -- Defensive Mindweb pops like a soap bubble, etc.  Now that the game's actually difficult, if you want offensive damage or CC casting, you want a wizard; if you want support casting you bring a chanter. Anything Ciphers can do, other classes can do better, and now that that matters, there's no reason to bring a cipher when you'd get better results with a wizard or chanter.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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Well this is the internet, mass hysteria and all.

To be honest they did a great job balancing POE but it took time and what seemed to be questionable decisions at the time.

 

Fighter, though is a tough class.

There are a number of problems.

Firstly people don't seem to like tanks, which is the most natural fit for a fighter. And a perfectly valid one.

But people don't like it.

Second problem, Barbarians are envisaged as the aoe damage meisters, and rogues as single entity dps.

So fighters can't be as good as barabarians with mobs or deal as much damage as a rogue? Nor can they tank because people don't like that.

Obviously that only leaves the jack of all trades open to them. But within that role they can be very good at all those things, and plenty of fun. Poe got that absolutely right. But the problem arises when a particular class or subclass makes some of the others obsolete.

That was the problem with fighters in Deadfire. They had to be nerfed, either that or get rid of rogues and barbarians.

 

Whether it and the other changes are to much remains to be seen.

But Sawyer has a weird approach to balance, where he makes radical changes in order to find the limits, and then he narrows them down.

Can't say I'm comfortable with his approach, it can be frustrating at times, but I absolutely can't fault his results. When it comes to game design and mechanics he is pretty much the best. But it does mean some ups and downs.

And we've seen all of this before in the first game... the hysteria, hyperbole etc.

And because of his approach, we're gonna see a lot more unhappy peeps before the end.

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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The End of Days? Let's consult Revelations:

 

I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

 

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the Nerf and the Buff. I am the Balancing One; it was easy, and now look, it's quite hard again, for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of nerfing and buffing.

I guess it is, I guess it is.

 

 

Wait a minute. This guy sounds familiar...

 

 

AIAYCW9.jpg

 

 

Are we at the "head white like wool" stage already?

Edited by Skazz

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I agree, but the fighter sort of "did" have a major role until this patch, which was basically massive burst AoE melee damage. Playing along the lines of some sort of "weapon master". But that was removed in the nerfs. Something that was a bit problematic with that role though was that it was not exactly amplified by being a single class fighter; The multiclass variant could access all the things you needed. 

 

I saw a great suggestion(cant remember in which thread) that perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the damage back onto charge again, but as a "upgrade" somewhere in the power levels 8 or 9, which is exclusive to single class fighters. I personally view the fix of cleaving stance as a bugfix, rather than a nerf. Self-triggering abilities is a bit silly, in general. That still leaves multiclass fighters in a bit of a struggle though since when it comes to multiclassing, they are outperformed by several other martial multiclass options.

 

 

Good idea. You can also do :

 

Base - Cleave stance

Number of attacks = number max of engagement (Foes can be hurt even when there is no physical "engagement" (the link between two characters) but max possible number of engagements is the key)

+No self-triggering

+Primary attack.

 

And here, engagement become Gold. : p People NEED to stack a capacity of engagement to increase the effect ! If you want to be strong with cleave stance.

 

Engagement +2 = 2 attacks max arround.

 

A good way to put forward a mechanic a little bit... under used in the actual system.

 

EDIT+ : Engagement is not only defensive, because the next level, each ennemy nearby give -5% of recovery. So the "theme" is respected !^^

Edited by theBalthazar
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I agree, but the fighter sort of "did" have a major role until this patch, which was basically massive burst AoE melee damage. Playing along the lines of some sort of "weapon master". But that was removed in the nerfs. Something that was a bit problematic with that role though was that it was not exactly amplified by being a single class fighter; The multiclass variant could access all the things you needed. 

 

I saw a great suggestion(cant remember in which thread) that perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the damage back onto charge again, but as a "upgrade" somewhere in the power levels 8 or 9, which is exclusive to single class fighters. I personally view the fix of cleaving stance as a bugfix, rather than a nerf. Self-triggering abilities is a bit silly, in general. That still leaves multiclass fighters in a bit of a struggle though since when it comes to multiclassing, they are outperformed by several other martial multiclass options.

 

 

Good idea. You can also do :

 

Base - Cleave stance

Number of attacks = number max of engagement (Foes can be hurt even when there is no physical "engagement" (the link between two characters) but max possible number of engagements is the key)

+No self-triggering

+Primary attack.

 

And here, engagement become Gold. : p People NEED to stack a capacity of engagement to increase the effect ! If you want to be strong with cleave stance.

 

Engagement +2 = 2 attacks max arround.

 

A good way to put forward a mechanic a little bit... under used in the actual system.

 

EDIT+ : Engagement is not only defensive, because the next level, each ennemy nearby give -5% of recovery. So the "theme" is respected !^^

 

 

I like the idea of cleave stance being tied to max engagement, but I don't see why cleave stance not 'being automatic' would be a good thing. Do you mean you manually have to activate the cleave each time the fighter kills something? That would be extremely tedious in micromanagement. I'd just remove the ability for bonus cleave attacks to proc more cleave attacks (removing 'proccing of itself') instead, unless that's what you really mean. 

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No, it stay automatic, like pre-patch 1.1.

 

For example. You have Engagement +2 (Abilities, equipement etc.) So in fact you can engaged 3 ennemies.

 

There are 5 foes. You kill an ennemy. You are now surrounded by 4 ennemies nearby in melee.

 

Automatically you do a Primary Attack arround you. You do 2 attacks. 2 ennemies are injuried, 2 others are not concerned.

 

If we count the basic engagement (all characters can engage only one ennemy at the creation ?) and we are severe : Cleave stance doesn't proc IF you don't have additionnal engagement. So Engagement+2 = 2 attacks.

 

If we are cool and nice : Engagement +2 = 3 attacks. In fact it is more logical because if not, cleave stance have no effect when you have no boost for addtionnal engagement.

 

And finally theses attacks have no self-triggering, to trigger another attack. Cleave stance does not trigger cleave stance.

 

With that : Engagement become the ressource to attack arround you, and you must invest or place equipement for that. All haxx is supressed : self-triggering, maximum attack.

 

Fighter is not killed but need investment for a good cleave stance. And it is totally logical with the "spirit" of cleave stance (and the "spirit" of his upgrade...).

Edited by theBalthazar

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Can anyone explain why cleave stance is linked to a fighter when it was one of the few things that made barbarian unique? Also does anyone know if cleave stance and barbarian carnage stack?

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Its not the end of days but it just feels undirected and shotgun style targeting everything that "feels" like a big nr whiöe at the same time not buffing bad stuff in dire need....tjey should have only nerved the extreme, buffed that bad and buffed the enemies....but PLEASE dont just buff enemy resistances....otherwise you might as well change the name to pillars of perception....

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I agree with and support 99% of the changes but I'm still probably going to shelve the game for a bit after this patch just because it's clear that Ciphers are generally broken now and aren't getting fixed with this pass.

 

I said before that the game was far too easy generally and Ciphers far too weak as a class, with the result that Ciphers could kind of coast, but that if the difficulty were fixed, Ciphers would get broken en passant, as it were: any enhancements to difficult would bring out the Cipher's failures in sharp relief.

 

Now that PotD has enhanced the difficulty, I'm finding I was correct in that prediction. It's not just the two nerfs to cipher powers (body attunement and time parasite) with the patch. Now that the game is actually difficult, the uselessness of other Cipher abilities is far more obvious -- Defensive Mindweb pops like a soap bubble, etc.  Now that the game's actually difficult, if you want offensive damage or CC casting, you want a wizard; if you want support casting you bring a chanter. Anything Ciphers can do, other classes can do better, and now that that matters, there's no reason to bring a cipher when you'd get better results with a wizard or chanter.

Pfft.  Try being a fan of Priests.

 

(That said, I haven't ventured above Veteran yet, and probably won't until I need the difficulty to offset metaknowledge advantages.  I play slowly-- my most advanced character was only level 10 before I installed the beta and started over.)

Edited by Enoch

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And 99.9% of the unique items in the game?  Why did all of that need nerfs?

 

 

Obsidian follows "Bring Everything Closer" philosophy.

Why were paladin's order restrictions removed? To bring paladin orders closer to each other.

Why were FoD and F&C nerfed? To bring paladins closer to other classes. Except monks who still had (potential) 50% fire lash but .....

Why was Turning Wheel nerfed? To bring it closer to (nerfed) FoD.

Why OP Dual-wielding had its attack speed nerfed instead of i.e. damage? To bring it closer to other fighting styles.

Now unique items are getting closer to each other.


Vancian =/= per rest.

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Why OP Dual-wielding had its attack speed nerfed instead of i.e. damage? To bring it closer to other fighting styles.

 

One of these days, there's going to be a CRPG where two-weapon fighting increases accuracy and defense instead of speed, and on that day the weapons nerd in me will cry tears of joy.

 

And then I'll find out that two-handed weapons are still the slowest ones and the weapons nerd in me will cry tears of bitter, bitter disappointment.

 

C'est la vie.

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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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It's not like that. It's just some nerfs were needed like Fighter nerfs- but they went overboard and make Fighter suck hard now. Instead for exmaple of making Charge primary only, they made it stun. Many items that were not OP or even used in most solo-builds were nerfed god knows why.

It's just Obsidian like most devs have no idea how to balance their game because let's be honest they don't play it enough. It's us who sit hours, find synergies, run number checks, spend whole day testing various combos etc.

 

They simple imo screw this balance patch (apart from Monk nerfs) and I think they did lazy job and we could have done it better as community.
 

I think by balancing is "make it viable but with downsides" instead of "make it useless so whiners will stop complain".

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I agree with and support 99% of the changes but I'm still probably going to shelve the game for a bit after this patch just because it's clear that Ciphers are generally broken now and aren't getting fixed with this pass.

 

I said before that the game was far too easy generally and Ciphers far too weak as a class, with the result that Ciphers could kind of coast, but that if the difficulty were fixed, Ciphers would get broken en passant, as it were: any enhancements to difficult would bring out the Cipher's failures in sharp relief.

 

Now that PotD has enhanced the difficulty, I'm finding I was correct in that prediction. It's not just the two nerfs to cipher powers (body attunement and time parasite) with the patch. Now that the game is actually difficult, the uselessness of other Cipher abilities is far more obvious -- Defensive Mindweb pops like a soap bubble, etc.  Now that the game's actually difficult, if you want offensive damage or CC casting, you want a wizard; if you want support casting you bring a chanter. Anything Ciphers can do, other classes can do better, and now that that matters, there's no reason to bring a cipher when you'd get better results with a wizard or chanter.

Pfft.  Try being a fan of Priests.

 

(That said, I haven't ventured above Veteran yet, and probably won't until I need the difficulty to offset metaknowledge advantages.  I play slowly-- my most advanced character was only level 10 before I installed the beta and started over.)

 

 

 

Eh, I've only played Xoti up to like level 14 or so but priests at least have a party role. They're solid healers, they have strong buffs and inspirations, and at higher levels you can build them for at least moderately strong nuking and debuffing. 

 

There are definitely a number of weak Priest powers and there were definitely a couple of priest levels where I had a hard time picking a useful ability and ultimately went back and picked a lower-level passive instead, but there was never a tier I looked at and thought "this whole tier is useless, time to stock up on passives entirely," and that happened more than once with Ciphers.*

 

See, e.g., the Rank VII spell choices for Priest and for Cipher respectively:

 

Priest has four moderately useful choices at that level -- cleansing flame, resurrection, storm of holy fire, minor avatar. Sure they're not exactly barn-burners and Resurrection is basically just a repeat of Revive the Fallen but an extra cast of Resurrect Ally is always useful. They do damage or they heal, cleansing flame wipes enemy buffs, etc. Like, I get why these aren't anything to write home about, but at least they're functional.

 

By comparison, ciphers? The only worthwhile active rank VII power is a stasis spell that functions as a "fight me later" button for one monster. Ancestor's Honor is literally useless because it doesn't raise the per-fight uses of Empower -- it's functionally just a rest button you have to press in-combat -- and Screaming Souls only works against spirits or vessels, which might make it useful in a Wizard's grimoire where you could swap it in for a vessel fight, but makes it a dead dud waste for a Cipher's active power choice (unless maybe you respec it in for the undead island or something), because in every fight where you aren't facing vessels it's taking up a power slot instead of helping. 

 

 

-----------

 

*Specifically, level VII and level II, ciphers are better off taking all passives or almost all passives at both those levels. And it's not because the passives are particularly amazing, it's just that generic passives like "bonus damage with two handed weapons" are superior to all available active spell options the Cipher could pick instead.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Are priests really that bad at nuking?

 

I can deffo see some areas where picking an ability isn't great. But the damage seemed pretty good to me. Though not at an overly high level thus far

I'm playing a Barb/Margran Priest as a caster/dps with pistols mainly- Though to be fair I don't have experience with any other nuker/caster classes to compare them too.

 

I assume then by what people are saying, as far as pure damage goes a barb/wizard is going to be superior?

 

I do like putting caster classes with Barb for the action speed increases, cast speed and recovery. Plus extra stats,

 

Guess I'll try out other barb/caster varients.

Edited by SamOftheUels

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Can anyone explain why cleave stance is linked to a fighter when it was one of the few things that made barbarian unique? Also does anyone know if cleave stance and barbarian carnage stack?

They work completely differently? Carnage is an every-attack AOE hit, now 33% of your base weapon damage, in a radius around the target you hit. Cleave stance is after you kil a mob you get an attack on enemies near you (or after the patch, 1 nearby enemy).

 

AFAIK, carnage should proc off of the attack(s) from cleaving stance, there's no reason why they wouldn't that I'm aware of since they're just normal attacks..

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Can anyone explain why cleave stance is linked to a fighter when it was one of the few things that made barbarian unique? Also does anyone know if cleave stance and barbarian carnage stack?

They work completely differently? Carnage is an every-attack AOE hit, now 33% of your base weapon damage, in a radius around the target you hit. Cleave stance is after you kil a mob you get an attack on enemies near you (or after the patch, 1 nearby enemy).

 

AFAIK, carnage should proc off of the attack(s) from cleaving stance, there's no reason why they wouldn't that I'm aware of since they're just normal attacks..

 

That's a meaningful difference, but I sort of agree with AeonsLegend insofar as it doesn't feel meaningful enough. Without multiclassing, I suppose there'd be a fairly good reason for it to exist, but since you can just make a fighter/barbarian these days, it just feels out-of-place.


If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

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Technically, If there is two classes to boosts VS five classes to nerf.

 

Obsidian will more -boost- the two classes, less work (and less drama : p)

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I choose to interpret the post as tongue-in-cheek :p

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I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

 

Poe's law applies.


If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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It's just Obsidian like most devs have no idea how to balance their game because let's be honest they don't play it enough. It's us who sit hours, find synergies, run number checks, spend whole day testing various combos etc.

 

Or, just maybe, Obsidian (like most devs) realises that people who sit hours running number checks and spending days testing aren't necessarily representative of their entire player base. And their choices when designing and (re)balancing the game are probably going to reflect that. 

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I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

 

?  Ciphers are amazing this build, both as a single caster or multi because they have early access to charm/dominate.  Charm, dominate, summons and explosives make every encounter much easier.

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