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Is Pillars of Eternity II men hating pro feminist game.


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#41
ArnoldRimmer

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Short answer: no

Long answer: nnnnnoooooooo

Some people really need to switch off their laptops and try living in the real world
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#42
drael6464

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Well I wouldn't say the game is 'man hating', but there is definately a progressive political lens, compared to the first game. 
It's made with a conciousness of those particular ideologies. I wouldn't say it's quite star wars hatred of classical thinking level, but there are anti-traditionalist, pro-progress, anti-religious, anti-commerce, anti-colonial, anti-caste themes, drips of intersectionality - the tribalism is through a species metaphor, and doesn't exist at the racial level, the impact of bio sex on behaviour is minimised (which it always is to some degree in some fantasy, but moreso in poe2 and dragon age, than forgotten realms or conan). I got a hint of a transgender type of subplot with one of the companions as well, and some environmentalism too. 

 

Xoti is a bit of an exception, because she's warm. I think she might be the only warm or vulnerable female NPC I encountered in the game. For whatever reason though, she's very flirty but I was never able to produce a full romantic relationship with her. Might be a bug, IDK, or perhaps you need 5 reputation or something or maybe that's how they intended it. But warm and or vulnerable is a big no no in feminist inspired writing, so it's not _entirely_ progressive. 

 

I am not sure what the source of these is - the creative team, the backer process, the gaming media and the modern establishment, or some combination but it exists. Some people will like that, others will not. For me, I am just not sure it's a direction that is conscious of it's broader audience.

 

I think it's still a great game, and because of the focus on choice, the player doesn't need to align with these ways of thinking. So apart from some awkward flirting, or some preachy dialogue, you don't _have_ to take that route. I don't know that this was anything conscious however. 

 

TBH, it's hard to write moral tales for the modern audience. You have this increasing political divide, with the new right, new centrists and then progressives, and they have completely different ideas what makes a moral right. How do you write to that? 

 

But I think this is an element that gives some players pause. It's not however the biggest criticism I could level at the game (which would be the ending, that lacks any features of a normal story - character faces challenge, character grows, character overcomes challenge - here the character feels more like a witness than a participant in the main story arc - in the side stories, not so much, there you participant fully, and grow, and so do the NPCs and the world). It's a story based game, and there is some good writing, but the main arc feels more like a setup for a future game, than a story unto itself. 


Edited by drael6464, 26 May 2018 - 11:47 PM.

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#43
TheisEjsing

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TBH, it's hard to write moral tales for the modern audience. You have this increasing political divide, with the new right, new centrists and then progressives, and they have completely different ideas what makes a moral right. How do you write to that? 

You don't. You write however you want to. It's your prerogative as an artist. And it's fiction so you don't have to care about anyone in particular. 


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#44
LaptiStyle

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Well, I agree.

I don't remember a strong AND positive male charcter in the game.

Director of VTC - weak and not so good, his female assistant is strong no doubt

Qeen - exceptional for her nation, her brother is just a stupid warrior

Furrante - strong evil, Eldis (?) - strong and "freedom, democracy etc" thing

Sefaren and Tekehu - both empty-hedead clowns opposite to Palegina and Maya

Poko Kohara leader - weak, priest - evil, priestess - strong even without any reason or backround

Koiki tribe leader - ofc female

Leader of silver stars - female, priestess - female, piligrim - female, bad_guy_that_kill_Eder's_boy - evil

Strong animancers - all female, dead or in trouble - male

So we don't have manly mans but have a lot manly womans



#45
DaKatarn

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The first pillars was correct on this point: no intense SJW propaganda IMO (maybe just the Sagani' story with her role of hunter and her husband who stay at home for the children but it's light) and I LIKE THAT SO MUCH.

 

Medieval-fantasy and CRPG are historically more traditional universes drawing from the soul of the former European myths and it's what I like, it's the old soul of our civilization like a good walk in a deep ancient forest.

 

I hate every propaganda in any cultural media so the recent wave of SJW forced propaganda in RPG is a really pain in my heart: Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age Inquisition or the add of Enhanced Edition for the great Baldur's Gate.

 

It's ridiculous not  a progress. This SJW propaganda dessert its own cause like an agression because it's artificial, often illogical and immersion breacker so much.

 

This propaganda has many consequences which are going to impoverish the whole game for ideological reasons: no too beautifull female NPC (what a shame and irony, the first power of any lady is her feminity...) and an aseptic, smoother universes, without soul, moralizer and forgotten like Dragon Age Inquisition. An empty carcass.

 

SJW propaganda is a fraud because the goal is the permanent crying about oppression or scandal so scandal or opression MUST BE SEEN OF EVERYWHERE. It's endless like a good old dungeon because without "oppresion" or "scandal" SJW aren't any more right to be, it is their fuel.

 

Even in a game without any male, any white people, SJW will tear between them like the "Enraged faction of Robespierre during the French Revolution".

 

Free of speach is sacred for me but I don't like any totalitarian thought imposing a moral order with sin and inquisition... It's a serious debate and ty for this no-troll thread.

 

I'm feminist but this actual SJW madness isn't feminism it's hate and will of destruction about the traditional soul of Occident, values and beauty.


Edited by DaKatarn, 27 May 2018 - 12:16 AM.

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#46
AgentTBC

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This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".


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#47
DaKatarn

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This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".

 Well done Inquisitor, censorship is your only answer?  The stake is smelling? We are all adults here and we can discuss with respect for a positive way I hope.

 

We can be feminist whitout being SJW...It's the deal of the nuance and any intellectual reflection. Why to ignore all my post for quote just one line with an unfounded accusation to demonized me with moral position and censorship for only answer?

 

It's more easy apparently to say "It's not what I want to hear, burn them all!!!". It's not tolerant and it's a pity.


Edited by DaKatarn, 27 May 2018 - 12:27 AM.

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#48
Yonjuro

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This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

 

Several people have said that. Why is it a problem to discuss an idea, even a bad idea (or, maybe, especially a bad idea)? Seriously, have you read the arguments against the points of the OP? What are you concerned about? Do you think that people can't understand an argument and come to a reasonable conclusion?  Do you not understand that censorship has the opposite effect from what you want it to have? Do you just not understand that if you can censor someone else, then others will censor you?


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#49
drael6464

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This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".

 

Well, as feminists are fond of mentioning, there are different forms of feminism that intersectionality, patriarchy theory and gender relativism. Equity feminism ascribes to none of those theories, and differs significantly from the modern cultural establishment. Likewise there are other forms of feminism that believe in biological "realism", or don't ascribe to intersectionality in terms of classes. So whilst it might be uncommon, I don't see how that's an invalid statement.

 

But hey I don't think people should be apologizing for their POV - ie, people feel they have to prefix their statements that way, because to diverge from the orthodoxy is to be regarded as an alt-right, transphobic, sexist, racist, Nazi by some of the less cool heads on the left. But I don't think they should use those prefixes. Just say it, and don't apologize. Haters going to hate. 


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#50
Archaven

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Now that we live in the era of Ultra feminism and internet is full of SJW #metoo stuff. I have to ask is this game pro feminist men hating propaganda, because almost all of the gods and powerful figures are depicted as female and ugliest god skaen in his rotting appearance is male. Narrative is also voiced by woman. Sure if those roles were reversed that almost all of the gods and powerful figures were male and those few ugly ones were female, all pro feminist SJW would be up in arms and polygon and some other medias would be twittering accusing this game of women hating chauvinism . :getlost:

 

i don't think it's men hating but i partially agree that obsidian pander to SJW. first off what's wrong with the female paperdoll model of first poe? why do they need to make female looks flat? and on the contrary if you see male model, they are muscular. such irony? also not to mentioned all the gods looks awfully ugly. magran, woedica and even hylea for ffs!. hylea should be a god of beauty and they portray her to look so ugly.

 

if anything, this game is not pro feminist but anti feminist. obsidian again being steered towards fake feminism. who told you that strong women are about looking ugly and being more like men? obsidian stop mixing entertainment with politics. look at star wars how the game was ruined by SJW. i love poe and the moment i noticed this i was so disappointed and angry with obsidian.


Edited by Archaven, 27 May 2018 - 12:41 AM.

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#51
ArnoldRimmer

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...look at star wars how the game was ruined by SJW...


So how was star wars ruined by sjw?

Edited by ArnoldRimmer, 27 May 2018 - 12:58 AM.


#52
Wintermist

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Feminism is about giving both sexes the same possibilities if they are able to perform them, and not limit them simply by being the wrong sex. Nowhere do you hate men because you're a feminist. The only thing it's about is allowing everyone the same chances in life.

 

It's not about getting people to do something they're not capable of doing, it's giving them the right to do the job if they CAN do it. How do people have issues with this?


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#53
DaKatarn

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...look at star wars how the game was ruined by SJW...


So how was star wars ruined by sjw?

 

I think it's about Star Wars VIII, withoutsoul and an agenda of racial quota and ugly women in the Resistance.

 

Rogue One was really better with a true deep of world and a strong woman main character who is not a Mary Sue.


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#54
marimo

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Xoti is a bit of an exception, because she's warm. I think she might be the only warm or vulnerable female NPC I encountered in the game. For whatever reason though, she's very flirty but I was never able to produce a full romantic relationship with her. Might be a bug, IDK, or perhaps you need 5 reputation or something or maybe that's how they intended it. But warm and or vulnerable is a big no no in feminist inspired writing, so it's not _entirely_ progressive. 

There is nothing anti-feminist or unprogressive about warmth or vulnerability as character traits for characters of any gender.

 

Also, reputation levels max out at +2/-2 and Xoti has a full romance. You can look it up on YouTube. 



#55
wih

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Wow. 50+ replies already. It is amazing how some people are able to create such engaging threads. 


Edited by wih, 27 May 2018 - 01:19 AM.


#56
drael6464

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TBH, it's hard to write moral tales for the modern audience. You have this increasing political divide, with the new right, new centrists and then progressives, and they have completely different ideas what makes a moral right. How do you write to that? 

You don't. You write however you want to. It's your prerogative as an artist. And it's fiction so you don't have to care about anyone in particular. 

 

 

Well that's true and it isn't. I mean a studio like obsidian has to fund it's employees, hopefully grow. Like any art that is commercial, be it movies or tv, or video games it has to contend with what the audience wants, and be entertainment first, and messaging and art second. Or otherwise blend the two.

 

Obsidian isn't entirely a startup indie, but isn't a massive software studio either, so it gets room for creativity for sure. 

 

When it comes to increasing ideological differences in this age, that means ideally, you either try and balance it all, or you pick a lane. I don't think these decisions have majorly or minorly effected its saleability, but I am just saying that if I was a writer, this would be something I would consider - the ideological device in the current year, even if many writers don't. It makes some story lines more broadly appealing, and some more divisive.

 

In a way, it's easier to default to a classic story writing mode, like game of thrones, westworld or the walking dead rather than going left wing IMO, for broad appeal. Mass audiences these days seem to respond to epic tales with grit, violence, sex and moral greys. I think the same would be true of video games. Here, rather than having the morals of the story be dictated by political leaning, they simply having a few strong characters of all demographics. And I think that's changed versus five years ago even where progressivism was more dominant.

 

The world, is in a way, still dealing/struggling with the changes, let alone adapted and aware of them.   It's strange because in a way, this is the centre and the right as it's always been - conserving traditions, upholding biological absolutes - preservation oriented, value and duty orientated. But suddenly in the last decade or so, these have been classes as "enemy" positions and incomprehensible, despite a constant right wing drift of all generations as the age (including millennials according to recent studies).



#57
ArnoldRimmer

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I think it's about Star Wars VIII, withoutsoul and an agenda of racial quota and ugly women in the Resistance.

You really need help... You seem upset that one of the characters wasn't white - how does that make it an agenda? And which ugly women?

The latest star wars Film was great and Rei and fynn (not sure how their names are spelt in the film) are very funny and just what the star wars films needed

Edited by ArnoldRimmer, 27 May 2018 - 01:20 AM.

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#58
drael6464

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Xoti is a bit of an exception, because she's warm. I think she might be the only warm or vulnerable female NPC I encountered in the game. For whatever reason though, she's very flirty but I was never able to produce a full romantic relationship with her. Might be a bug, IDK, or perhaps you need 5 reputation or something or maybe that's how they intended it. But warm and or vulnerable is a big no no in feminist inspired writing, so it's not _entirely_ progressive. 

There is nothing anti-feminist or unprogressive about warmth or vulnerability as character traits for characters of any gender.

 

Also, reputation levels max out at +2/-2 and Xoti has a full romance. You can look it up on YouTube. 

 

 

Is it a bug then that it never happened for me? I did all the character quest, all the dialogue options, and had a decent reputation and it never became a courting, let alone a relationship. Perhaps I should report this somehow if that's the case. 

 

I agree, although I am not a feminist. I mean really anything can be considered 'feminist" or not depending on how you spin it.

 

But because under intersectionality characters become considered avatars for their demographic by the audience, writers tend to stray away from giving their characters any weakness and therefor depth or room to grow. If a character is too stereotypically feminine, as xoti's traits might be classed, then that can be seen as "disempowering". I mean that's not my perspective, I've just seen this sort of commentary plenty of times, that the preference is for "strong characters".

 

Although I am sure this is also just related to the public hunger for wish forfillment, of which straight men certainly had their fill in the 80s. 



#59
drael6464

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I think it's about Star Wars VIII, withoutsoul and an agenda of racial quota and ugly women in the Resistance.

You really need help... You seem upset that one of the characters wasn't white - how does that make it an agenda? And which ugly women?

The latest star wars Film was great and Rei and fynn (not sure how their names are spelt in the film) are very funny and just what the star wars films needed

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with that, but for entirely different reasons. The latest movie changed/altered the lore, and the historical characters. It was a very intentional act to sever star wars from it's ancestory based, monastic, religious and classical thinking underpinnings. The treatment of luke for example, was completely out of character - dude tries to save his dark side dad, and turns around and tries to kill a child because he might get up to no good. To many fans of the series, that's a turn against the prior movies, and a bit of an insult to the fanbase. 

 

Personally I could forgive the left leaning narratives if they had not done this. They are distracting when you personally no longer think that way for the most part, but It's hard to find a movie out of hollyweird that doesn't have that bent so you best get used to it. Either than or take up reading :p


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#60
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This thread has turned into a discussion about a Star Wars movie. Which is awesome (I mean the fact that it turned, not the movie itself - which I even can't remember properly).
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