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Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?


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So tonight I finally talked to the Faction leaders to figure out what they wanted me to do.  I knew they would want me to do something against the other factions, but I wasn't sure what just yet.  Maybe the Huana will want me to steal some documents from the VTC to prove they are doing illegal activity?  Maybe the VTC will want me to do some sort of espionage to make it look like Ruatai is planning a hostile take over on the Huana and turn them on each other?  Maybe Ruatai wants me to do the same only to the VTC?

Nope.

 

Two of them want me to blow up a freaking powder store, which will kill dozens of innocent bystanders if not blow up the majority of a city sector.  They also don't seem to overly care about the innocent dead people, even if some of them are their own people??!???!?

 

The other wants me to become a hit man and kill the Huana royal family, while they also bombard a city sector as a distraction.  Likely killing innocent bystanders again.

What do the dirty, dishonorable, scum of the earth, pirate sleeze want?  Kill other pirates, take out a crew of undead killers that are plaguing the seas.  Wait what?

Seriously, how is Aeldys the morally superior faction leader?  She is anti slavery (unlike the VTC and Furrante), not a racist (unlike the Huana), never asks you to assassinate anyone other than Furrante (unlike Ruatai), and hilariously she and Furrante are the only two faction choices that don't involve something that kills innocent civilians.  What is worse, is despite being a murderous pirate, she is also the only honest faction leader with you and herself.  Everyone else is pretending to be in it for the "good of their people", maybe for Ruatai it is true in the worst way, but it sure as heck is not true for the Huana, VTC, or Furrante.  Aeldys at least says "nope in it for myself and the booty".

 

I liked the factions much better in this game, and I appreciate how their are gray areas with all of them.  But did they all have to turn into ruthless murderers, ends justify the means loons, slavery lovers, and racists at the end game?  They went from grays to solid black.  Except for the self declared pirate who just wants to kill, plunder, and have fun.  They are just really dark grey.

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So tonight I finally talked to the Faction leaders to figure out what they wanted me to do.  I knew they would want me to do something against the other factions, but I wasn't sure what just yet.  Maybe the Huana will want me to steal some documents from the VTC to prove they are doing illegal activity?  Maybe the VTC will want me to do some sort of espionage to make it look like Ruatai is planning a hostile take over on the Huana and turn them on each other?  Maybe Ruatai wants me to do the same only to the VTC?

 

Nope.

 

Two of them want me to blow up a freaking powder store, which will kill dozens of innocent bystanders if not blow up the majority of a city sector.  They also don't seem to overly care about the innocent dead people, even if some of them are their own people??!???!?

 

The other wants me to become a hit man and kill the Huana royal family, while they also bombard a city sector as a distraction.  Likely killing innocent bystanders again.

 

What do the dirty, dishonorable, scum of the earth, pirate sleeze want?  Kill other pirates, take out a crew of undead killers that are plaguing the seas.  Wait what?

 

Seriously, how is Aeldys the morally superior faction leader?  She is anti slavery (unlike the VTC and Furrante), not a racist (unlike the Huana), never asks you to assassinate anyone other than Furrante (unlike Ruatai), and hilariously she and Furrante are the only two faction choices that don't involve something that kills innocent civilians.  What is worse, is despite being a murderous pirate, she is also the only honest faction leader with you and herself.  Everyone else is pretending to be in it for the "good of their people", maybe for Ruatai it is true in the worst way, but it sure as heck is not true for the Huana, VTC, or Furrante.  Aeldys at least says "nope in it for myself and the booty".

 

I liked the factions much better in this game, and I appreciate how their are gray areas with all of them.  But did they all have to turn into ruthless murderers, ends justify the means loons, slavery lovers, and racists at the end game?  They went from grays to solid black.  Except for the self declared pirate who just wants to kill, plunder, and have fun.  They are just really dark grey.

 

 

 

 You're right - I suppose the thinking was that the pirates are assumed to be doing a lot of bad stuff by default and so there needed to be some good reason to make them an option.

 

 Note that the RDC will also ask you to kill the slavers (but, if you press them, you learn that they knew about the slave trade for a long time and are only doing something about it now because it is politically expedient).

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 You're right - I suppose the thinking was that the pirates are assumed to be doing a lot of bad stuff by default and so there needed to be some good reason to make them an option.

 

 Note that the RDC will also ask you to kill the slavers (but, if you press them, you learn that they knew about the slave trade for a long time and are only doing something about it now because it is politically expedient).

 

 

While they do want the practice to stop, they want crookspur island as a naval base a whole lot more...

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Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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 You're right - I suppose the thinking was that the pirates are assumed to be doing a lot of bad stuff by default and so there needed to be some good reason to make them an option.

 

 Note that the RDC will also ask you to kill the slavers (but, if you press them, you learn that they knew about the slave trade for a long time and are only doing something about it now because it is politically expedient).

 

 

While they do want the practice to stop, they want crookspur island as a naval base a whole lot more...

 

 

Yes, that is what I meant by politically expedient - they got you do the dirty work and then took over the island.

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I went with the Huana and they wanted me to blow up the powder house and frame the VTC. You have to lie or the whole palace becomes hostile. I wasn't impressed since I was a Priestess of Eothas. I did do RDC too only because I got a submarine out of it.

Atsura, the intelligent Psychopath of my dreams.  I like my elves grumpy and my godlike fishy!


And my Rekke romancable!

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The issue with Adelys comes later. If you bring her to Ukizao she steals the Floating Hangman from you and turns the storm machine back on so she becomes the only person who can ever travel there and back and she can plunder anything she wants. It may be the worst possible ending so basically none of the factions are a good choice. I guess you have to decide if the ends justify the means for each faction.

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I suppose the idea is great powers don't really get to become great powers without getting their hands dirty, and relative peace and stability generally only comes from a great power attaining a position of dominance. Look at Pax Romana, Pax Britannica, Pax Americana etc. Reality is that major powers are generally not much better than pirates -just ask the Gauls or the Aborigines or the Native Americans- they're just strong enough to set the rules which apply to themselves.

 

You have the option to go it alone if you're squeamish about doing the things the major factions need to do to take power, but the price is no single power becomes strong enough to enforce stability in the region. There are no benevolent superpowers who got there with clean hands.

 

Aeldys is one of the most interesting options because she's the only one to turn the storm machine back on and prevent access to study / fix The Wheel. Hard to say how important this may be though until someone explains whether Eora still has a functioning natural life / death cycle or not...

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I suppose the idea is great powers don't really get to become great powers without getting their hands dirty, and relative peace and stability generally only comes from a great power attaining a position of dominance. Look at Pax Romana, Pax Britannica, Pax Americana etc. Reality is that major powers are generally not much better than pirates -just ask the Gauls or the Aborigines or the Native Americans- they're just strong enough to set the rules which apply to themselves.

 

You have the option to go it alone if you're squeamish about doing the things the major factions need to do to take power, but the price is no single power becomes strong enough to enforce stability in the region. There are no benevolent superpowers who got there with clean hands.

 

Aeldys is one of the most interesting options because she's the only one to turn the storm machine back on and prevent access to study / fix The Wheel. Hard to say how important this may be though until someone explains whether Eora still has a functioning natural life / death cycle or not...

 

I totally agree. The establishment of power always comes with a cost attached to it. This is what makes the factions of Deadfire much more plausible and believable.On the surface, they all talked alot about high concepts, but underneath they were willing to do what needs to be done at least in their eyes. They all had a clear motivation and a justification for themselves, they didn´t appear to me as evil just for the sake of beeing evil.

Edited by Sarakash
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From worst to best:

 

RDC is my most hated faction, assassination, creating chaos, killing innocence just for own gain. And they act like they are superior species who best use all the resources in the world, other inferior should submit to them. They not only take resource, but they take life and culture.

 

Principi might not involve quest which kill a lot of innocence, but they kill a lot by by themselves. Yes Aeldys anti-slaver, but is it out of good heart or out of her twisted philosophy of freedom? And Furrante not only involve in slavery but also he plan to build pirate kingdom, although he is more lawful.

 

VTC indeed is draining resource of Deadfire, but they provide opportunity of job, trading, technology advancement. Although Castol involve in slavery but unlike Alvari who only concern in money, he did concern advancement of technology which will benefit all kith especially it might save kith from wheel destruction. He is what I consider as lesser evil. And the final quest is involve killing soldier, not civilian but I cannot deny it is still consider killing "innocence".

 

Huana...actually helping them does not benefit kith other than Huana. I will help them just because I took pity on them who invade by other powers, and Roparus do not deserve all of this.

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I don't know that they have the moral high ground, so much as that they have fewer uses for a band of expert skirmishers, killers, and assassins like you happen to be the leader of. The Watcher and his cohorts make up a phenomenally successful paramilitary organization, with individual members measuring their kill counts in the hundreds.. Asking them to do anything other than perpetrate a slaughter just seems wasteful.

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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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The end game choice is clearly about choosing whom ever you see as the lesser of four evils but I found it difficult to know who to assist throughout the whole game.

 

As the watcher I thought my duty was to protect lost souls and the ardra they depend on. The RDC wants me to destroy the arda so they’re out. VTC only wants me to restore it so they can come along later to smash it and sell it. I wanted to help the Huana return to their original home but they will only accept my help if I agree to frame an innocent man, really?

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VTC only wants me to restore it so they can come along later to smash it and sell it. 

Not really, especially not really for Castol. In the ending slides they set a research outpost there to study it. But it is insignificant compared to their research at Ukaizo - animancy gets a giant kickstart with VTC and knowledge gained rivals Engwithans themselves. And while for Alvari it is true that VTC is there to get all there is to get in Deadfire and leave, for Castol it's different - VTC is there to stay with permanent settlements and research institutions.

Edited by Aramintai
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VTC only wants me to restore it so they can come along later to smash it and sell it. 

Not really, especially not really for Castol. In the ending slides they set a research outpost there to study it. But it is insignificant compared to their research at Ukaizo - animancy gets a giant kickstart with VTC and knowledge gained rivals Engwithans themselves. And while for Alvari it is true that VTC is there to get all there is to get in Deadfire and leave, for Castol it's different - VTC is there to stay with permanent settlements and research institutions.

 

 

When I got there I wasn't really sure about that animancy kickstart part. The engwithan was a civilization beyond measure and they ended up producing the current flawed "gods"... are you sure the current empires of Eora are ready to deal with something like that? I for one wouldn't want to see that power in the hands of anyone ( even tho Castol isn't that bad compared to the others).

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So tonight I finally talked to the Faction leaders to figure out what they wanted me to do.  I knew they would want me to do something against the other factions, but I wasn't sure what just yet.  Maybe the Huana will want me to steal some documents from the VTC to prove they are doing illegal activity?  Maybe the VTC will want me to do some sort of espionage to make it look like Ruatai is planning a hostile take over on the Huana and turn them on each other?  Maybe Ruatai wants me to do the same only to the VTC?

 

Nope.

 

Two of them want me to blow up a freaking powder store, which will kill dozens of innocent bystanders if not blow up the majority of a city sector.  They also don't seem to overly care about the innocent dead people, even if some of them are their own people??!???!?

 

The other wants me to become a hit man and kill the Huana royal family, while they also bombard a city sector as a distraction.  Likely killing innocent bystanders again.

 

What do the dirty, dishonorable, scum of the earth, pirate sleeze want?  Kill other pirates, take out a crew of undead killers that are plaguing the seas.  Wait what?

 

Seriously, how is Aeldys the morally superior faction leader?  She is anti slavery (unlike the VTC and Furrante), not a racist (unlike the Huana), never asks you to assassinate anyone other than Furrante (unlike Ruatai), and hilariously she and Furrante are the only two faction choices that don't involve something that kills innocent civilians.  What is worse, is despite being a murderous pirate, she is also the only honest faction leader with you and herself.  Everyone else is pretending to be in it for the "good of their people", maybe for Ruatai it is true in the worst way, but it sure as heck is not true for the Huana, VTC, or Furrante.  Aeldys at least says "nope in it for myself and the booty".

 

I liked the factions much better in this game, and I appreciate how their are gray areas with all of them.  But did they all have to turn into ruthless murderers, ends justify the means loons, slavery lovers, and racists at the end game?  They went from grays to solid black.  Except for the self declared pirate who just wants to kill, plunder, and have fun.  They are just really dark grey.

oddly enough, am thinking the way it played out made the pirates the weakest faction story, but admitted the most desirable from a gameplay perspective.  no companions threaten to leave (at least not for Gromnir) if you join the pirates, so no alterations to prefered or ideal party compositions result from your support o' the pirates.  aeldys doesn't even demand you murder furrante, and you need not do so as exposing his vtc slavery entanglements is enough to get him hanged by his fellow pirates.  you not even need kill the undead manning their ghost ship as you is able to swap boats and give 'em a crappy voyager if you is genuine worried 'bout financial loss. yes, from a moral high ground pov you need also consider results o' your actions more long term, and support pirates is a dubious starting point from which to argue that you chose to align with the good faction, but none o' the factions is offering up a shining beacon on a hill resolution for nekataka and the deadfire, which for Gromnir is a positive.  shouldn't be an obvious right choice.  unfortunately, as you note, more immediate moral considerations as well as actual gameplay concerns weigh disproportionate in favor o' the freaking pirates.  the hard choice o' aligning with factions would be better if there were not a relative soft option included.  pirate choice shoulda' been tougher.

 

'course, even though we wanted to do the ghost ship thing at least once, and will eventually do all faction quests to completion, we will be going ruatai in hopes o' a poe3 import.  is the only faction who has their act together.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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VTC only wants me to restore it so they can come along later to smash it and sell it. 

Not really, especially not really for Castol. In the ending slides they set a research outpost there to study it. But it is insignificant compared to their research at Ukaizo - animancy gets a giant kickstart with VTC and knowledge gained rivals Engwithans themselves. And while for Alvari it is true that VTC is there to get all there is to get in Deadfire and leave, for Castol it's different - VTC is there to stay with permanent settlements and research institutions.

 

 

When I got there I wasn't really sure about that animancy kickstart part. The engwithan was a civilization beyond measure and they ended up producing the current flawed "gods"... are you sure the current empires of Eora are ready to deal with something like that? I for one wouldn't want to see that power in the hands of anyone ( even tho Castol isn't that bad compared to the others).

 

Totally valid, some people are too afraid of the potential dangers. But you can't stop progress, even the gods seem to push kith towards it by breaking the Wheel. And Vailians are the most progressive on that part, while not being shy of inviting bright minds from all over the world. So, it's better be them than some fumbling Huana. And I doubt anybody will want to create gods again with previous ones still present as an example.

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Usually , factions are ...well..easy doesn't do it justice . But usually , it's a bit more clear.....who is the worst of the worst , who is the stupid...who is the goodie and so on .

 

But here...they all give me a headech...and while I feel for the Huana native....cose I really do . I may just run off solo..and let these idiots keep on bickering..

 

I need more aspirin... :banghead:

I'll bet ye've got all sorts o' barmy questions! (She mimics your heroic stance) Greetin's, I have some questions... can ye tell me about this place? Who's the Lady o' Pain? I'm lookin' fer the magic Girdle of Swank Iron, have ye seen it? Do ye know where a portal ta the 2,817th Plane o' the Abyss might be? Do ye know where the Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum is?

 

Elderly Hive Dweller

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VTC Castro is not that bad, they are still greedy bastards, but at least they push research over adra, and there is a chance they will do something with wheel. Also they have teleporting maschine, so they do some work.

 

Furante Principi, establishing island kingdom is not the worse thing to do. It is similar to what other factions already have. It is some progress over piracy.

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 Also they have teleporting maschine, so they do some work.

 

 

at the moment, their teleporter has a few more kinks than does seth brundle's invention.

 

 

and the vtc ain't only experimenting with baboons.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The issue with Adelys comes later. If you bring her to Ukizao she steals the Floating Hangman from you and turns the storm machine back on so she becomes the only person who can ever travel there and back and she can plunder anything she wants. It may be the worst possible ending so basically none of the factions are a good choice. I guess you have to decide if the ends justify the means for each faction.

In my playthrough she placed barrel bombs in the water around Ukaizo in addition to the storms and it's pretty well insinuated that she means for no one to claim it, not even herself. She also doesn't steal the Hangman, I think it's assumed that you no longer need it given that you're heading back to the Dyrwood.

 

I actually found this to be the best ending, not the worst. All the others require you to either side with a demonstrable faction or throw the region into total chaos.

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By the time i had to make my choice, i already knew it was either Rauatai or the Huana: I'm not giving control over Ukaizo and an entire archipelago to pirates, no matter how noble hearted they may be at heart, nor did i like the prospect of handing it over to a company selling soul dust as a youth revitalizer. It's sad for the animancers in their employ, but Ukaizo becomes the subject of animancy research in every ending: i doubt the actually driven researchers would stay with the vailians when they have a chance to study Ukaizo, no matter which faction holds it.

 

I had my doubts about helping the Huana, since they seem to be stuck in their traditional ways quite badly, not to mention Onekaza would still need to force the other tribes to accept her leadership e.g. the Wahaki and the Port Maje tribe. When she made that foolish declaration that "no outsider would set foot on Ukaizo", basically forcing the factions to go to war if they want Eora to survive, my choice was relatively easily made.

 

The Rauataians are imperialists, no doubt about it. But they also build up the places they conquer as seen in Sayuka, and seem to prefer a relatively bloodless takeover over a battleground, as evidenced by the assassinations. It's not moral by far, but it's the best i thought we got. However, I was mostly convinced by the way their leadership talks about ending the storms of Rauatai to allow their homeland grow: kudos to those voice actors, because you can really hear the hope in their voicework. Sure, those storms end in every ending, but I didn't know that at the time, and it's a very worthy goal.

 

One thing I wonder about is this: most people here talk about how their choice is the right one by pointing towards the ending slides, which is more than reasonable. However, unless you're metagaming your choice or going for a "perfect playthrough" of sorts, you probably didn't make your choice because of what happens afterwards, and I wonder why people chose their endgame faction when they didn't yet know how it would end.

 

PS: as for Aeldys' moral superiority, this is the same woman who hung defector skulls on the walls of her fortress to make a pun, no matter how great that pun may be. She's a loose cannon who happens to enjoy being aimed at slavers, and not being interested in ruling nor having a goal does help reduce your kill count. Which could probably use some reducing, her being a pirate and stuff.

Edited by Taevyr
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The issue with Adelys comes later. If you bring her to Ukizao she steals the Floating Hangman from you and turns the storm machine back on so she becomes the only person who can ever travel there and back and she can plunder anything she wants. It may be the worst possible ending so basically none of the factions are a good choice. I guess you have to decide if the ends justify the means for each faction.

In my playthrough she placed barrel bombs in the water around Ukaizo in addition to the storms and it's pretty well insinuated that she means for no one to claim it, not even herself. She also doesn't steal the Hangman, I think it's assumed that you no longer need it given that you're heading back to the Dyrwood.

 

I actually found this to be the best ending, not the worst. All the others require you to either side with a demonstrable faction or throw the region into total chaos.

 

 

I guess it depends how you read it as to if she steals it, I know she never asked me if she could have it! She does say that she plans to plunder the island.  

 

Both the VTC and the RDC plan to work towards fixing the issue of the broken wheel.  VTC plans to use animancy to find a new solution and RDC plans to use their engineering skills to repair or rebuild the wheel.  The pirates it seems plan to lock Ukiazo away and do nothing about the problem.  So it may seem like an ok ending now but it seems disastrous for the future.  Plus, it kinda makes me angry that we went to so much effort to find the place only for her to lock it away from the world again.

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PS: as for Aeldys' moral superiority, this is the same woman who hung defector skulls on the walls of her fortress to make a pun, no matter how great that pun may be. She's a loose cannon who happens to enjoy being aimed at slavers, and not being interested in ruling nor having a goal does help reduce your kill count. Which could probably use some reducing, her being a pirate and stuff.

You do realize that desertion IS punishable by death in modern militaries, right (Article 85 UCMJ)? Hell, in the US at the current moment falling asleep on guard duty is punishable by death (Article 113). It is very important in armed conflicts that people are where they're supposed to be and doing what they're supposed to be doing. Similar rationale can be applied to pirates.

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Aeldys reactivates the storm machine btw, which also maintains the storms in Rauitai.

 

We don’t really know how disasterous The Wheel being destroyed (or even destroyed *and* inaccessible for repair/research) is yet, because the game doesn’t make it clear at all what the repercussions of The Wheel being destroyed are.

 

If Eora was immediately thrown into a worldwide Hollowborn crisis (which would be known within hours, or days at most) you’d think the ending slides would mention it. If it’s not and babies are still being born with souls just fine then the whole thing seems like a fuss over nothing.

 

Another thing worth considering is that the storm machine may have been hiding some kind of backup system in Rauitai. If the Ukaizo machine was responsible for the storms even in faraway Rauitai it stands to reason they must be hiding something important.

 

Teleportation (such as it is) may not even work now without the ‘pull’ of The Wheel on the adra network.

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