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  1. Okay,so I thought it would be nice to do a simple poll on crafting. The main point is to see which games out of my limited selection you would like to see influence the PE crafting system the most. Obsidian will obviously do their best to make the most compelling crafting system that'll add to gameplay and enjoyment. This will hopefully be able to give some sort of indication as to what games we'd like to influence the crafting system. Hopefully my selections as answers are reasonable and offer up a suitable array of options.
  2. I am not going to make a poll in this thread but the recent update by Tim Cain does raise questions about the intended direction of economy in Project Eternity. There hasn't really been a thread on this before (There's been a couple on specific elements such as economy related to magic or difficulty, or currencies), but not a discussion of the economy in itself. So I am making this thread for us to discuss economy in Project Eternity. To start off the thread properly I'll need to do a fairly good main post so I'll try to cover everything I can think of. I'll try and open the discussion from the perspective of the player's wealth as it is really the only thing that the designers have to be weary of in the game. We know the inputs to player wealth in the game (perhaps not all of them, but enough to talk about) - so I think the discussion should be about the value of those inputs, the outputs of which the player spends their wealth. Inputs to player wealth: Items found Money found Skills (Crafting, Stealing etc) Quest rewards Outputs from player wealth: and as per this post on the Something Awful forums it seems that one of the purposes of it is as a money sink for players who don't necessarily do much with the Stronghold Buying new items Paying for Crafting Paying for magical service (Healing, Restoration, Identification etc) Repairing items (currently) Player House Player Stronghold Quest inputs (eg. Paying the Shadow Thieves for transport to Spellhold in BG2) I don't think this discussion should be particularly about multiple currencies or anything specifically but by all means feel free to talk about them. My input I'll start off by saying I'm not a huge fan of Item Durability proposed in Update 58 and as per this post in the Something Awful forums it seems that one of the purposes of Item durability is as a money sink for the player in case they do not invest in the Stronghold. My suggestion here would be to remove item durability from the game and focus on other outputs from player wealth instead. Is it important that if a player does not invest in the stronghold that there be other money sinks in the game to circumvent the amount of wealth they will still have from doing so? Should the economy be balanced so that if the player wants to invest in the stronghold they might have to sacrifice other outputs? Outputs themselves are also probably affected by skills (such as bartering might reduce the cost of items or increase the cost of sold items etc, we can't be sure until we see the full skill tree). Here are some brief suggestions to get the ball rolling Buying items should be expensive Having a vendor craft items for you should be more expensive than doing it yourself for the convenience it offers Paying for magical service should be expensive There should be hopefully many quest options where you can use player wealth (paying for bribes etc) to garner specific outcomes. "Conscience do cost." Selling items should get you a minimal fraction of the item cost, perhaps influenced by reputation or a skill such as bartering if one exists Keep the money you find or are given in the game down Artifact crafting could have a high money cost like BG2 Limit the junk item sell value to 1gp or currency equivalent in game Expeditions: Conquistador also had a nice price/demand system for their trading that might be worth considering. Personally I don't think the player having excess 100K gold is an issue, but there are definitely ways to bring that number down excluding Stronghold investment. Anyway there's some points to discuss. I'm sure everyone else has heaps of ideas as well. Bring on the micro/macroeconomics enthusiasts etc.
  3. This post is brought to you by armchair dev forum poster #209158 Dear Project Eternity developers, This is my attempt to create a well-constructed argument against the inclusion of Item Durability for the sole purpose of giving people a reason to take Crafting as a skill and some notes on your skill design and a proposed solution. Some of the stuff I talk about is ‘best-guess’. I apologize if I have misinterpreted any information I got from your forum posts at various places, but here goes… Grouping Item Durability in with Crafting achieves the design goal of making Crafting a skill that multiple characters (but perhaps not all characters) will want to take; gives Crafting a combat related per-character sliding benefit to match the efficacy of the Stealth skill and is a money-sink for the player. It is even quasi-realistic. It is not a bad design decision, but it is not the best one. Firstly, if Crafting does not affect everything that characters use to make a repeatable standard attack in Project Eternity (i.e. implements for Wizards, if they are used to make a standard attack) then it is not going to have too much use for the Wizard class if they are playing as a ranged spell flinging wizard, but only melee wizards who wear armor and wade into combat wielding spell-enhanced weapons. The wizard was previously the go-to ‘Crafter’ class in previous editions of D&D, so if that is the case it changes that archetype (which may or may not be a good or a bad thing). The issue with tacking Item Durability into the Crafting skill is that Crafting no longer becomes the focus of the skill, the focus shifts to Item Durability because of its relevance to combat and economy. It does not matter which character in the party can craft items as long as someone can do it, but it does matter which characters take the Crafting skill because characters that are going to be getting hit often and attacking often are going to run the risk of having one of their primary weapons broken while adventuring and also draining the party’s gold if they do not take the skill. It may not matter who can craft, because the action of crafting need only be performed by one character in the party to benefit the party, but it does matter who has the Crafting Skill because it is an efficiency and resource drain on the party and thus it is going to be a no-brainer to take Crafting on the primary melee combatants of the party. This does fully depend on how mild the implementation is – how long it takes for weapons to degrade and how much it costs to repair them. If it is too mild it is an insignificant mechanic, probably not worth taking on more than one character and overall busywork, but if it is at least moderate it will have certain pidgeonholing effects on character builds. This may be balanced out by the fact that characters will only be able to have two high skills in the party, and there may be other skills in the skill list that need to be taken by these melee characters in order to cover all of the needs of the party, but it seems like it is going to be important for melee characters to at least dump a couple of points into the Crafting skill just to reduce the efficiency and economic tax on the party. This mechanic creates a Skill tax on these members of the party. Excluding the affect on Item Durability, Crafting in Project Eternity [essentially Crafting, Enchantment and Alchemy] is a one-person-per-party skill. The party member with the highest Crafting skill will always be doing the crafting as crafting is an action that interrupts adventuring, can only be conducted by one character at a time and has no reason for multiple characters to be undertaking it at once. If any other characters in the party take the Crafting skill, they are merely buying “Combat Equipment Maintenance” for its combat and economic benefits. These characters will likely never craft an item in the game. Why is it important that crafting [the action] be a skill that is taken by one character? I cannot think of one, unless the Crafting disciplines were split into groups rather than streamlined so that multiple characters had to take them or Crafting was a party skill [more on that later]. The design mandate of Skills in Project Eternity seem to be highly influenced by the combat efficacy of the Stealth skill because it allows every character to use Stealth get closer to an encounter before being noticed (e.g. one point of Stealth may allow a melee character to reach melee combat with an enemy, taking one projectile hit from a ranged combatant while avoiding the extra projectile hit he would have taken had he been noticed earlier). Based on the current available information it leads me to believe that every other skill is being designed with a similar benefit in mind, even if the benefits are somewhat abstract to the actual skill itself. “Combat Equipment Maintenance” is not abstract from Crafting, it makes sense, but it makes more sense that characters proficient or excellent with a weapon would also know how to maintain their weapons to make them last a longer period of time before repair. The ‘gamism’ of the design is inferior to the obvious simulation. An easy way (but maybe not the best way) to solve this problem and to keep the design intentions intact is to remove Crafting from the skill list completely and make it an abstract action that any character can perform (like Baldur’s Gate 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2). The restrictions can be present within the item recipes themselves and still achieve the same effect without having Crafting as a character skill since it seems to be at odds with the design principles of the current skill system on its own. I do not believe there is anyone that would complain about that. For the sole sake of keeping the money-sink and strategical maintenance part in the game, you could keep the “Combat Equipment Maintenance” as a skill. But now without Crafting, it is solely a skill tax on equipment based characters. The comments Josh Sawyer made regarding the money-sink part of the skill led me to believe that this was partially intended to affect the party wealth of players that do not invest in the Stronghold, but it is clear that it affects everyone, not just them. You could also remove that from the skill list and make it an abstract system like Diablo 2, but Item Durability as its own entity would probably be more annoying to a larger portion of the fanbase than it is as part of a skill (conjecture, I couldn’t be certain) and it wasn’t present in the Infinity Engine games either – perhaps it makes sense in the context of the world, like Baldur’s Gate or Fallout New Vegas, only you could say. Changing Item Durability to an inverse “Sharpness” mechanic where you sharpen an item and it has more damage and degrades over time does not fix the issue, it retains exactly the same issues and has even more plausibility (which may not be an issue for you). Removing Crafting from the skill list and removing item durability/any sister mechanics from the game solves the problems with trying to make a skill out of a one-character-per-party action which was an abstract action in other games and feat(s) in some editions of D&D. It may not solve the money-sink issue for players that do not invest in the Stronghold, but I do not believe that was a good solution to that problem anyway if that was its intention. But in my opinion the problem is rooted deeper in the skill design, and it is likely similar issues will be present in a lot of other skills. Making skills something that every character wants to take is a hard job because most of them will likely be carbon copies of D&D skills that were only meant to be taken by one person in a party in a system where it was fine that both one-person skills and universal skills were allowed to exist and other skills that are useful for multiple characters do not have the same effect in a CRPG as they do in P&P. It seems that the way you guys are tackling this is giving skills like Herbalism or Mechanics a gamist combat effective bonus to match the efficacy that Stealth and Perception have, which is my problem specifically with the examples of skill design I have seen so far (Survival in F:NV, Crafting in P:E). The problem with this design is the exact same thing is going to happen with other skills as to what is going to happen with Crafting; people in their right mind are not going to take skills on characters for the ‘skill’ action, but for the combat related bonus. Mechanics seems like it is partially a one-person-per-party skill. Sure maybe you can open two locks at once if you have it on two people but the character with the highest mechanics skill will be doing most of the mechanics skill actions. So if you gave it a per-character sliding effect combat bonus (I’m not sure what that would be, but for the sake of argument let’s say it reduces the reload time of ranged weapons) anyone else who takes it will be taking it solely for that, with the exception of possibly being able to do a couple of Mechanics actions at once where the game world permitted. Using reload time as an example, now you’re most likely not going to take mechanics on any melee characters. Your rogue might take it because he gets a natural bonus and it is useful in conjunction with Stealth but a melee fighter will probably not take Mechanics because he might not use a ranged weapon very often, but you’d be a fool not to take it on the Ranger because the Ranger will be (most likely) using a ranged weapon 90% of the time. It falls into the same pit trap as Crafting where melee characters will be a fool not to take it. If there was a skill called Herbalism and it acted like Survival in New Vegas then the same issue would be present. The character with the highest skill points in Herbalism will do the herb gathering and identifying. No other characters will be necessary to perform this action, the only reason players would put points into it is based on the increase in duration consumable consumption. It worked for New Vegas because there was only one character. Survival was taken for Survival, not just for the bonus durations of consumables. I don’t believe adding abstract per-character combat bonuses this fixes one man skills. Sure it gives you a reason to give it to more than one character but it does not make the skill-action useful for every character, it adds a subset system whereby players are choosing options based on abstract combat bonuses. The skill action of Crafting, or Mechanics or “Herbalism” remains a one-person per party action most of the time. Taking points in Crafting on two characters does absolutely nothing to the action of Crafting Items. Isn’t crafting items the purpose of the skill? Wouldn’t it be better to reward taking Crafting on multiple characters by affecting the action of crafting itself, rather than some abstract bonus? If taking Crafting on multiple characters had a direct benefit to the crafting of items for the party, then maybe people would take Crafting on multiple characters if they wanted to make a Crafting-build party. The benefits of taking Stealth on every character are solely within the skill. Taking Stealth in multiple characters allows the party to better avoid combat or get closer to combat. You could take the group benefit of multiple characters with Stealth and apply that to other skills as well. Multiple characters with Crafting could help the crafting action of the party. Crafting already allows skills, talents and abilities from other party members to help facilitate the creation of items, so why couldn’t points in Crafting from multiple characters be beneficial for the party since the action of Crafting effectively stops adventuring anyway. In fact this mechanic was present in D&D 3E, on page 62 of the Player’s Handbook under “Combining skill attempts”. Obviously you wouldn’t use these exact mechanics, since checks aren’t rolled for skills anyway, but you could say that multiple characters with a skill in the party could assist the skill check of the character vs the static target. In relation to crafting you could add a per-character sliding benefit for every character with the skill to the character with the best crafting score’s number for determining certain things about what they can Craft. The same could probably go for other skills that have this problem. That way they don’t have to have some tacked on combat-abstraction that doesn’t feel quite right.
  4. Note that this is a concept, take any terms as abstraction, i.e. "item quality" can mean anything, from selling value to merely the name of the item. Why do people like combat, but not crafting? How does combat work? Combat forces you to make decisions and game/genre experience determines the result. If you do stupid things, like casting "Cure Wounds" on an uninjured party member, you will end up in trouble. Combat is inherently limited - by hit points. Your goal is to get past the enemies without losing your hit points. The quality of the battle is determined by the amount of resources you spent - hit points, spells, potions, etc. and the difficulty of the encounter. If you didn't spend or lose anything at all to win the hardest encounter, it was the best possible fight. How does crafting work? The goal in crafting is to have a usable item, with the best item quality and the least consumed amount of resources. You can't call yourself Grandmaster Tinkerer before you can craft a crossbow from a paper-clip and a goat. You see the similarities, right? But if both tasks are very similar - we just need to combine the fun of combat and the process of crafting. When crafting an item, the player has a limited amount of whatever. When this reaches zero, there will be no item (battle lost). The player has to choose an option. This decision process must/can be reevaluated periodically. The core options are "finish item" and "improve quality". Now, this is still no fun, because when you say:"You can choose 10 times.", player picks 9 times "improve quality" and the last action will be "finish item". Like combat grants you more options than "hit" and "run", the options need to be expanded and the results slightly randomized. More skill level would allow more options. When the enemy poisons your character, you either cast "Cure Poison", drink a potion or you try to finish the opponent faster. So, you can add random events to the crafting, like "Sneeze attack". If you are experienced or have the right item (handkerchief), you have an option to solve this problem (it still costs you an amount of whatever). You can also decide to live with the event - it might lower your item quality or your amount of whatever each turn, but maybe this is still better than investing the costs for the cure or the event might even do something good (adds option to disease opponents). If you do something stupid, like solve the Sneeze attack with black powder instead, you will face consequences. I guess what this concept is basically about is: Crafting should require decisions (beyond what to craft) and have consequences, to be fun.
  5. Why not list some interesting weapons as inspiration for game content? They could be unique items found in the game, or crafted by mid-to-high level characters. Maybe something you created from PnP and would like to share. The examples below are stat-free because the numbers would not be currently meaningful. "She Wroth" - Flail crafted from Medusa skull and spinal column. - Poison/Petrification/Paralysis. Maybe swap Petrification for Charisma damage. "Pale Mistress" - Scythe blade crafted from female Dracolich claw. - Necrotic bonus damage. Fear. "Gypsy's Kiss" - Dagger crafted from huge Viper fang. - Poison. Improved stealth. "Trollblight" - Corrosive Halberd or Greataxe. Acid bonus damage. "Vampiric Lash" - Battle Whip with Vampiric Regeneration.
  6. As a follow up to the discussion on Resting, I was thinking about the kind of useful/optional activities a wilderness campfire might provide for your party. These ideas are based on class skills and/or "Background Professions", which have been discussed in a few threads already. Campfire activities take place outside of cities, and are an abstract way of taking time to achieve a desired result. They also involve an element of pseudo-crafting that should save you money, compared to higher costs in a city. Examples: If you're a Ranger or have the Hunting Profession: - Previously killed wild game = Raw meat + Campfire = Cooked meat = 10 hp Ration Pack - Uncured Winter Wolf Pelt + Campfire + Successful Hunting check = Cured Winter Wolf Pelt = Increased resale value If you're a Druid or have the Herbalist Profession: - Misc. Forest Ingredients + Campfire + Successful Herbalist check = Antidotes / Herbal Remedies If you're a Fighter or have the Bladesmith Profession: - Dull/blunt weapon + Whetstone/Honing stone = Normal (sharp) weapon = Increased resale value If you have the Historian Profession: - Examine and identify certain special items combining the Lore skill. You may discover the actual (increased) resale value If you have the Jeweller Profession: - (Example only) 50gp gem + 10gp silver chain (or ring) + Campfire + Successful Jewellery check = 100gp silver necklace (or ring) = Increased resale value - A Jewellers' Toolkit might contain a basic soldering iron, crimping pliers/pincers, tweezers etc. If you have the Armourer Profession: - Minor armour repairs at campfire, providing there was a mechanism for them to be damaged in the first place. - Even plate armours have leather straps, buckles, and harnesses that can be repaired without a forge - An Armourers' Toolkit might contain a small dishing hammer, riveting tool, leather punch etc. - But you could only repair "poor" armour so it became "average" armour at campfires. You must go to a city to fully repair armour, via a forge or professional blacksmith, with an implied additional cost. - Maybe allow different "states" of armour repair, which also relates to resale value. - 75% - Good - 50% - Average - 25% - Poor The long-term benefit of any profession is to make you money if you intend to create/repair and on-sell mundane items. The suggestions above are only one side to having Professions (the economical side). We need to consider other useful aspects that may affect quest outcomes too. Would anyone use these options around a campfire if they wanted to rest in wilderness areas anyway?
  7. The only game that I've had experience with crafting is Arcanum. I haven't played many of the new RPGs (lack of money, and honestly, these forums don't really have glowing reviews about them in any case) and so I'm not really sure how crafting has been implemented in newer games. I guess FO:NV is the only game that I wish to play and that crafting is involved in it. I haven't really read much from the devs about crafting and enchantment. Are there any mechanics specifics that someone out there can provide? I also am interested in opening up the discussion towards crafting mechanics that you guys have enjoyed in the past and that you'd like to see implemented in this game. What are some crafting elements that you've enjoyed and some that you don't think should make it into the game. From what I understand with Fallout:NV, it seems a lot of the crafting is directed at ammo creation and a few weapons, "potions". One of the crafting mechanics that I really enjoyed was Arcanum's crafting mechanic of both having to upgrade your technical skill in a field and also having to find schematics to help create new items. The fact that there were 8 fields of study made it impossible to become an expert in all the fields, and would only come in multiple replays of the game. I would like that to be done in PE as well. From what I understand with Fallout:NV you only have survival skills, explosive skills, and science skills that much matter. I'd like it to be a little more involved than that. Baldur's Gate 2 also had a nice "Cromwell's smithy" mechanic where if you found certain otherwise useless items, cromwell the blacksmith could make some legendary items for you. I never really used any of them (most of the epic items you had to kill bosses for: e.g. Holy Avenger), but that was a good mechanic too, although very much less involved. I'm not even sure you could call it crafting. Anyway, what things have you guys enjoyed in previous crafting mechanics? What would you like changed? Any interesting ideas that you think the PE team might want to explore?
  8. I do understand that it is a cRPG and not a trading game. But could it be possible to own stores and participate to their success in a limited capacity in order to have a steady source of income? I've always liked to loose a few hours of gameplay on this kind of stuff. That or an elaborate crafting system.
  9. We know that souls will be the power source that allow our heroic (and not so heroic) characters to perform the extraordinary. As souls are used as power could individuals be able to craft souls into items? Could an individual have the power to remove a soul to make a weapon? Could desperate individuals offer their soul up so that some champion could wield it to avenge a great wrong? This is something I wanted to do in a D&D game but sadly never got to run. A few rare artefacts empowered by souls created in times of desperation. One example was of a blade made by a nation on the eve of annihilation. The blade was to be trusted to a champion to ensure revenge. Unfortunately the champion never arrived in time and the sacrifice was in vain. She saw the knife it seemed small and poorly crafted. A simple wooden handle warped with age would make it awkward to wield. The blade itself seemed sharp enough but looked like it was made in a rush without much care. Initially she was going to ignore it, but something compelled her to pick it up. Once in her hand she was swarmed with emotion. The Sorrow was crushing. The Fear overwhelming. The Hate intoxicating. Her thoughts drowned out with cries for justice and revenge. A whole nation of voices screaming endlessly. This seemingly simple weapon had been forged in a time of desperation. People with no more hope gave the last thing they had. How many souls had been used to craft it? She would never know. She would never let it go. She would never stop till the blade was sated. What a shame the disaster had long since passed. The great enemy long dead. The hopeless nation forgotten in time. Now just a champion driven mad by angry souls demanding justice. The surrounding lands were doomed. Do you think souls will be used to create items of power?
  10. We're approaching the Crafting & Enchanting stretch goal, so I thought it'd be a good time to discuss mechanics. Arcanum, in my humble opinion, had one of the best crafting systems out of cRPGs I have played. For those who haven't played this title, here's a quick recapitulation : The general concept was simple - characters acquired various item schematics by spending of character points in the appropriate discipline. However, some had to be found - either in shops or in various locations in the game (some would be notoriously hard to locate). It was then simply a matter of finding ingredients to create the desired item : But here's where it got interesting : 1) Lots of variation There were eight disciplines (Herbology, Chemistry, Electric, Explosives, Gun Smithy, Mechanical, Therapeutics and Smithy) in the game, with each discipline having seven degrees within it. And that's not counting found schematics. 2) Not limited to equipment upgrades While some of the disciplines offered just that (i.e. better armour), it was not a general rule. That brings us to the next point. 3) Consumables and utility equipment That, I feel, was the strongest part of this system. Most of the schematics were of various consumables or other assorted amenities. For an instance, the player could craft : a) various grenades (stun, flash, fire, acid, smoke etc.), b) substances that could benefit the player (buffs : combat and non-combat) or harm their foes (poisons), c) traps, d) various useful gadgets (better lockpicks, lanterns, projectile reflecting shields, trap detectors etc.), e) resources (bullets, batteries etc.) f) even pets (automatons). In short - all sorts of useful (or somewhat less so) items, with wildly different combat and non-combat applications. 4) Mixed crafting Some found schematics required having an expertise in two disciplines - e.g. machined plate required advanced knowledge in the fields of Smithy and Mechanical. I think these concepts would be a good source of inspiration for PE.
  11. As soon as I read the $2.4M goal "Crafting and Enchanting" all these horrible Skyrim memories poured out. "Hey, there's a dragon right there, let's kill it in under 30 seconds and still have 95% of our HP left". or "I just torched this whole village with my super armor and infinite spells because the guards are too weak to defend it". It was only a matter of time until Throne of Baal came to mind too, with their "rogues and wizards can wear any armor" or other equally overpowered capabilities. PLEASE do not allow the crafting and enchanting (C&R) to spoil the fun by making the game too easy. After you finish the $2.4M goal line look back and ask yourselves: - Will this make roaming around the world solo a lot easier? - Is it possible to create an item that's better than the one you got from slaying that Giant_Cyclops_on_steroids that killed half my party? - Will the Expert Mode, Trial of Iron and Path of the Damned be the only real challenges in the game once the C&R is implemented? If you answer any of these questions with "yes", please go back and lower the power level for C&R. Cheers!
  12. Hello, First off i am indeed a backer of this very exciting project. Thank you all for giving us the players the opportunity to fund, play, and give idea's for such a wonderful undertaking. When i read about your addition of player housing as one of the stretch goals it brought back fond memories i had of the crafting system in Ultima Online. UO had one of the best crafting systems to date, that i believe not one game has even come close to in its depth. I believe UO's crafting style system would absolutely be an amazing addition to Eternity. Need arrows? Click your axe on a tree, you get some logs, now use your carpenter's tool on the wood logs, now you have boards. Use your dagger on the wood boards to carve out arrow's. Kill a bird for the feathers for your arrow, etc etc. I'd especially love to have the ability to not purchase your player house, but to BUILD your player house. It would make downtime between fighting so much more interesting. Especially if some of the more hard to find resources were in dangerious spots that you would have to fight your way into. Perhaps have different paths you could take to the same goal. Wood built houses, mud/adobe style, brick/castle style, etc. I really believe that this would make this game truly exceptional and give new players that have never experienced UO's crafting system a real shock to the system to see what a REAL crafting system is like. Beyond that, it would be wonderful to run your own home/castle, buy land. Work the land, Defend your land against enemies, conquer new land that you can build on or expand on as well. I'm greatly looking forward to Project Eternity. Again thank you for making such a wonderful (i hope) game! LiTh
  13. I'd like to see a crafting system similar to Neverwinter Nights 2 that employs recipes requiring molds, different types of metals and drops from monsters from all across the lands.
  14. Will be there any form of crafting? For example using schematics like it was in Arcanum?
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