Helm
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Posts posted by Helm
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What do you guys consider 'accomplishment?'
On a bit of a tangent, this whole debate reminds me of one of my pet peeves at work. There are two types of people: process-oriented and goal-oriented. Process-oriented people think that activities should be rewarded; goal-oriented people think that accomplishing things should be rewarded.
I can't, in general, stand to work with process-oriented people. They're the ones who are concerned that you clock in at the right hours, make sure that everything is properly written down, call endless meetings to properly assign responsibilities, and so on. Goal-oriented people are concerned about what needs to be done in order to get that thing we're working on finished and out the door, what it has to be like, and so on. Of course some process and, in teamwork, a great deal of discipline is needed to actually do that, but I find it extremely important that goals go first, adherence to process second.
I think this is behind my dislike of systemic XP. It's process-oriented, the game equivalent of making sure the T-45 form is properly filled and the hours are properly clocked. It rewards activity rather than directed activity. In a game which has goals other than "retrieve the amulet of Yendor from somewhere below level 20 of the dungeon" this just feels wrong. I.e. systemic XP only really works for me if the activity is the goal.
This also reveals that I think of XP as primarily an incentive system, not, say, a 'simulation of learning things.'
So you generally have a problem with systemic XP (= combat XP, lockpick XP, etc.), but you think it is fine if it one of the main activities of the game, i.e. the journey is the ultimate goal. That is a pretty good description of Baldur's Gate and probably explains why you liked that game and also backed the spiritual successor.
I seriously don't understand what your problem is, you keep on writing that you hate something that you don't actually hate. It is like you are defending a certain principle and don't really even know why yourself.
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Yeah, there is some loot there, but it was not good. Just some crafting materials or something. You might as well just skip it like practically every other encounter in this game.
This.There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.
I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.
Most of your suggestions are fairly reasonable for the most part Sensuki but this pure nit picking. Every encounter doesn't need some long drawn out narrative excuse and to have tons of back story behind it. Why are the wolves there? Because making your home in an old ruin is a ton safer and more cozy for a wolf pack than the middle of a bunch of trees or a cave filled with killer spiders I imagine.
A trash mob is simply any hostile NPC that isn't a boss character. The Ogre or the spider queen wouldn't be a trash mobs, everything else is.I don't understand the concept of trash mob, in a game like PoE. There's wildlife and gameworld-related enemies placed on the maps, what's trashy about them?
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All non-combat skills are useful. If we add lockpicking to the game, we will make sure that there are locks to pick and worthwhile rewards for getting past them.
All non-combat skills can be used frequently. If you take disarm traps as a skill, you should expect more than two traps in the entire game world. Frequency of application has a large impact on how useful something is.
Combat can be avoided with non-combat skills. There will often be ways to avoid fighting. Yes, we will have the standard methods of talking your way out of a fight or sneaking around an encounter, but there will be other ways too. Perhaps you can re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery to prevent any further undead from rising, or maybe figuring out a way across a ruined bridge will always avoid the bandits on this side of the river.
Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/314089
Yeah right. It sounds just like Infinity Engine game, only slightly improved by giving the player the possibility to use a special skills to resolve some encounters in different ways. More variety is always good.
They did a good job on sugar coating the truth.
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Just ignore the troll, people.
But you don't get any XP for exploring in PoE? In Baldur's Gate I would get XP for exploring the world, now I don't get anything if I don't first get the quest from a farmer or peasant.
Even Skyrim rewarded the player for exploration, and that game is a very simple RPG. Sad.
(BTW, there must be a lot of trolls around here, because I keep seeing you call them out.)
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You're not very smart, but you're a pretty good troll.
BTW I enjoy it when you like my posts, always good to feel your butthurt.
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There is no exploration in this game, you must always do the bidding of villagers.
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They should just remove all of the trash mobs from the game, I have no idea what's up with this mini-game of walking around pointless encounters.
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You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.
Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o
Helm's talking nonsense. Enemies do drop loot, sometimes very good loot. The two fights in Dyrford itself drop excellent armor and weapons including probably the best ranged weapon in the demo, so much so that if you go the pacifist route you're actively handicapping yourself for the rest of the beta, or at least until you get through to some rather nice found loot.
Let me explain this to you too.
Yes, they do drop items. You collect items and sell them for gold or you collect crafting materials. What do you need gold for? To buy camping supplies or craft. What do you need camping supplies or crafted items for? For combat. Duh.
Not to mention that some of the best items can be found lying around in the world, there is even stuff in Dyford that can be found, even a gun IIRC. It is so blatantly obvious that combat is completely pointless in this game, because it is designed that way. Not to mention that you don't even need the absolute best equipment if you always avoid combat whenever possible (mostly because of the flawed and impotent stats system). There is no reason at all to take the high-risk path of killing anything in this game. The concept is not only fundamentally flawed (you build powerful warriors in a stealth game? Wut?) it also has absolutely nothing to do with an IE game. Nothing.
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If you guys hate combat XP so much, then why did you back the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate that Obsidian promised us? Josh Sawyer has a huge problem with combat XP and he hates Baldur's Gate, he would have never backed this game (if he wasn't lead designer). So why did you back the spiritual successor of a game that you thought was fundamentally flawed, because it rewarded the player with combat XP?
FWIW I stopped awarding combat XP very early in my DM'ing career. Lately I've gotten really lazy; I just decide roughly how quickly I want my players to advance per session, and award about that much every time, adjusted up or down depending on how creative they got, how big the challenges were, and how much they accomplished, with individual bonuses for players who did especially well.
So you stopped rewarding players with combat XP but you are still rewarding them for overcoming challenges, like combat? What?
Why are you against combat XP then? lol
Is anybody anywhere advocating for a kill XP only system?
No, because it is just as ludicrous as quest only XP in this type of game.
That said, Dragon Age Origins was also touted as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. I loved DAO (less so the second title, and I haven't even bothered with the 3rd), but in terms of looking for a spiritual successor to the I.E games, what I've seen of PoE gets us about 1,000% closer to that mark than DAO did.
I disagree, Dragon Age: Origins feels much more like a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate than this Frankenstein of RPGs. Not to mention that it has a lot more depth.
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Fukk You: Suck My Dikk: Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience
It fits real good actually. They should rename the game. lol
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Love how everyone is totally ignoring the moderators. I'd say this thread is overdue for a lock.
We wouldn't even be having this discussion if Obsidian would have been honest when they pitched the game. The gameplay of this game doesn't resemble Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale at all.
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and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum.
Well, what were you expecting from a game where the core activity is combat? Not to mention that Baldur's Gate had diplomatic/peaceful solutions to quests, and you don't have to kill everything just because you get XP for doing so, so that isn't a problem anyway. Do you play flight simulators and whine that you have to fly a plane too or what?
Go play a stealth game or pacifist: the pacification if it bothers you.
PoE is a role-play game that allows sneaky and diplomatic. give xp awards for individual kills, and individual lockpicks and individual whatever inevitably leads to an ideal approach for maximizing xp by making the right gameplay and character development choices. quest only xp avoids the need to devise a fair an balanced calculus. quest is simple and guaranteed to result in every player getting exact same XP rewards for completing quests regardless o' how they chose to complete the quest.
you don't wanna play a role-play game that offers choices? then go play an rts game.
HA! Good Fun!
We used to have the choice to either engage in combat or not. We used to have the choice to be diplomatic or not. PoE is a stealth simulator that doesn't resemble the IE games at all, it is just a boring stealth simulator where the core activity is avoiding combat while doing the bidding of villagers for XP.
You don't want a roleplaying game that offers choices and hate combat? Then go play Pacifist: The Pacification or a stealth simulator.
HA! Good Fun! (<- god, that is so retarded)
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"That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called gently caress You: Suck My ****: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good.
Ahh, so that is where that quote came from. lol
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You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.
The core activity of the IE games is combat, that is why it is rewarded with XP. I'd expect the same from the spiritual successor.
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Bullsh*t, You're stating an opinion as fact. I want XP for completing quests equally as much as I want XP for killing things. Take either of them away from me, And I will respond to the omission the SAME. Incidently, there would be nothing stopping the devs from increasing quest completion rewards for those who completed those quests non-violently, thus equaling out the discrepancy you claim will occur for the violent route.don't be obtuse. if you want xp for individual kills or individual lockpicks you is not actual advocating the quest/task xp reward approach.
*sigh*
and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum.
*groan*'
you don't have any idea just how obtuse this all is and how repetitive.
HA! Good Fun!
And it's not up Gromnir to decide whether or not a thread discussion is "too old" to be discussed. I don't see a moderator tag next to your name, so stop pretending you're one.
asking for both kill and quest xp utterly defeats the Point o' quest only.
duh.
HA! Good Fun!
Yeah, and quest only xp utterly defeats the point o' combat.
duh.
HA! No Fun!
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Don't be disingenuous, Helm. You don't want this to be Diablo.
You're right, I don't want to kill everything. But I don't want combat to be a pointless chore either.
And happily it won't.
Yes it will be. Combat in this game is a pointless high-risk chore that you are better off skipping.
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and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum.
Well, what were you expecting from a game where the core activity is combat? Not to mention that Baldur's Gate had diplomatic/peaceful solutions to quests, and you don't have to kill everything just because you get XP for doing so, so that isn't a problem anyway. Do you play flight simulators and whine that you have to fly a plane too or what?
Go play a stealth game or pacifist: the pacification if it bothers you.
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Don't be disingenuous, Helm. You don't want this to be Diablo.
You're right, I don't want to kill everything. But I don't want combat to be a pointless chore either.
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Sure, why not, since the core activity of the game is combat.Do you think that would be a good quest?
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Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.
No, that makes sense in the game world because it's a quest you receive in the game world.
In the end, the developers have to put in XP somewhere if they want to have an XP-based leveling system in the game. Quest-XP is the place where it has the least unintended consequences, because quests are pretty much the base concept of a roleplaying game.
Ok, cool. So can we have a quest to murder everything and reward it with a bunch of XP? It's a quest, so it must be ok.
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So, the game doesn't promote a specific playstyle, yet it encourages the player to avoid combat because it makes sense in this world?
It doesn't positively promote it. Certain behaviors will necessarily be promoted through the mechanical function of the game. That is entirely different from the developers putting something into the game specifically to promote it. To make it perfectly clear, the game does passively promote certain playstyles.
Yeah, the game actively encourages the player to finish quests and passivly encourages the player to avoid combat. We already know that.
But thanks for once again admitting that the game encourages the player to avoid combat.
The way it promotes them is through them being the rational choices to make in the game world. If you see a dragon and you think "I'll get a ton of XP for killing it", that is not a rational game world decision. Why are you endangering your life and those of your party members in this situation? If you see a dragon and you think "Dragons guard vast treasure, I'll kill it for money", that is a rational game world decision. You and your party are risking your lives for a tangible game world reward.
Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.
Lets "fix" up the game some more and remove quest XP too.
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Sawyer created an XP system where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker. That's what happened.
I know. I was responding to your post... which was claiming that individual XP value rewards will never happen. (like picking a lock and getting XP for it.)But the XP system is not a simple matter of a few numerical values.
That is not what I said in my post. Why is it so hard for you not to misrepresent the comments of others? What I specifically said, and as you may confirm by actually reading my discussion with Helm, is this: Obsidian implementing a system where you directly improve your lockpicking skills solely through the act of lockpicking will not happen.
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Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.
Anyway, not rewarding combat with XP also promotes one playstyle over another, which is to avoid combat. I didn't back a stealth simulator, I backed a spiritual successor the IE games. So, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat? How do I become a masterful warrior by skipping all of the combat in the game and always choosing the peaceful solution to quests?
There are two differences here: First of all, it's not a system that positively promotes a playstyle. Secondly, you are now avoiding combat because it makes sense in the game world.
So, the game doesn't promote a specific playstyle, yet it encourages the player to avoid combat because it makes sense in this world? What?
Anyway, thank you for admitting that game encourages the player to avoid combat.
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An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.
The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.
So you're saying that improving your lockpick skill by talking to an ogre is ok, but improving your lockpick skill by stabbing a beetle isn't?
Why? Is the former less abstract than the latter or something?
I'm saying that you're trying to argue for logic where there is none to be found. Neither is more "ok" than the other, but XP must be rewarded in some manner. Kill XP has been decided against because it promotes one playstyle over another and incentivizes certain behavior, not because this XP solution is more or less logical than that XP solution.
Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.
Anyway, not rewarding combat with XP also promotes one playstyle over another, which is to avoid combat. I didn't back a stealth simulator, I backed a spiritual successor the IE games. So, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat? How do I become a masterful warrior by skipping all of the combat in the game and always choosing the peaceful solution to quests?
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Another comment on the exp system
in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted
I wrote combat is pointless, not that you will be able to avoid every combat situation. No idea how much combat you can skip or if you can beeline your way to the bottom of the dungeon to get the epic loot.
All I know is that Sawyer doesn't want to actively punish a player for his prefered playstyle, which is to either be stealthy or murder everything, although the gameplay in the Beta does passivlely encourage the player to avoid combat.
This game looks like an IE game, but it doesn't feel like one. I don't remember the IE games being stealth simulators where you should skip all of the pointless combat. The core activitiy in the IE games was combat, exploration and questing. The core activitiy in PoE is to to solve quests while using stealth to avoid combat. They play very differently.
I'm not sure when Obsidian came to the conclusion that the mechanics in the IE games are total crap and need to be replaced. Mechanically PoE resembles Darklands more than any of IE games, which is not surprising considering the fact that Sawyer's favorite game is Darklands and that he hates Baldur's Gate.