choasrepeated
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Posts posted by choasrepeated
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One of the things I loved about IE games was the detailed manuals and tables, I had to double my level when I heard the manual was at the $50 level
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One of the things I loved about IE games was the detailed manuals and tables, I had to double my level when I heard the manual was at the $50 level
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Not only paladins but chanters now? Are you serious Obsidian? On top of Monks and Priests.....that's four classes that all do the same thing....preach. That's more than one third of all 11 classes. What's this....a worship along game? I mean what comes next? If the player doesn't stop to pray every 3 seconds the prayer meter depletes and the game ends?
Don't forget druids as well :b
And rangers and barbarians are just glorified shamanistic versions of the paladin and monk..
But seriously paladins, priests, monks and bards (I know its not quite a bard) are common RPG troupes
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Am I the only one that finds Chanter ominously similar to Chantry(only the class name, ofc)?
Chanters in Dragon Age are follower of the Chantry that talks only using sentences from the Chant of Light.
So much fun to make fun of them.
Highly unlikely, just like it is unlikely they'll be like enchanters (covered by ciphers anyways) from guildwars or eq. Although you probably could roll a priest like ritualistic chanter which would match closely the chantry style characters if you wanted.
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I wish Obsidian would make it possible that we can become a deity during the course of the game,
This is something fresh that has never really been done before. (you can become a god at the end of Baldur's Gate ToB but never get to act in the world from their perspective)
I think Obsidian has the talent and depth to make it interesting.
While I agree that is true it would be great have to point out that it has been done. In bg2 as you say, but also ofcourse god of war, the game that let's you play as one of the four the horse men (can't remember its name), devine divinity, arguably titans quest, and quite a few others.
Still that's not to say its inclusion would be a bad thing. There could be a dragon lance style trail of the twins story line even...
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Excellent update! I traditionally play a paladin, so that's great news. I also have always had a problem RPing worshiping a god, so I'm loving your take on him.
Arg, I felt the same way, just was hoping no one would state that as now everyone is going to spam how atheist paladins don't make sense.
That said when I read the paladin description I did a happy little dance.
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I love the new classes this will let me build amoral paladins and regilous and lawful bards.
Should produce interesting parties.
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Well we know from the last update it isn't.
It was very clear that the practitioner's faith sparked the power of their soul rather than the god in question granting the abilities.
So if belief is the maker of the planes then atheists threaten everything with their questioning, can we kill the heretics then?
See the whole idea is already inspiring story arc's.
A church may very well feel that way, paradoxically justifying the god slayers own prejudices.
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Atheism can exist in a setting like this. It just requires a shift from "divine entity does not exist" to "entity is not actually divine".
That would actually be quite cool.
But if the deities (or, plot twist!: the simply extremely powerful mortals masquerading as gods) wield god-level powers and are impossible to locate, the atheist movement would be a short-lived affair. And as I suspect that the deities of this world will have those powers, I doubt we'll see any crusading atheists in Project Eternity.
Warhammer 40k actually springs to mind on this. That is the gods there were parasitic feeding off souls.
As for crusading atheists its undeniable some people will role play these.
As role-playing the only remaining question is one of mechanics and scope.
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And divine magic is not divine.
Well I think that if we can prove gravity to zealots by throwing them from a building we can smite the heretics into belief.
Up next we try to convince those lunatics that don't believe the sky is blue.
Well we know from the last update it isn't.
It was very clear that the practitioner's faith sparked the power of their soul rather than the god in question granting the abilities.
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As much as I hate the whole "mature themes" schtick meaning "sexual progressiveness" or make-believe-fantasy-atheism (for the love of rage, they're there, we can see them, they talk to us, we heal people for crying out loud!) some other horse**** like that... I don't see how that relates to Grimdark.
it goes hand in hand with the whole perceived sexism thing...What's this obsession with real life athiesm beingd ragged into a fantasy?
it's pretty barf inducing to be honest.
Video games are notorious for this in recent years (*obligatory BioWare reference!*). My biggest fear is that in Obsidian's writers' minds these things might be synonymous with the concept of "mature themes". Which is always most likely either a grimdark setting or a bunch of Evil People Who Fight for Good (or vice versa).
I do love myself some Grimdark.
I'm confused, what do you consider mature themes if not things that raise questions of race, religion, gender politics or the human condition?
These are fair game in fantasy and sci-fi novels in a way not available for more serious genres so why not in games?
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Given bg:2 flirted with the idea and there is a fanasty theme of murder the gods. It wouldn't be out of place.
Just saying.
Also this is anti-theist not atheist.
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"Excellent update, what you guys are doing is amazing.
One thing I beg you for though; please please please include atheist and anti-theist spheres for priests, monks and druids.
Not as a fallen dark character either but as a paragon or noble character.
It would be so very awesome if you could include this."
Nah. The people in this world know gods exist and priests and priest magic is likely linked to gods so to have an athiest priest just doesn't make sense. if you want a non worshipping spellcaster take mage.
It doesn't make sense at all to have an Athiest priest. I repeat ATHIEST PRIEST does not make sense. Obsidian would have to be loco to include ATHIEST PRIEST that have their ATHIEST spells. It's beyond illogical.
It's one thing to be an athiest in the real world since there is no direct proof a diety exist. But, even in the real world, there is no such thing as an ATHIEST PRIEST. Which makes sense since priests, by defintion, are RELKIGIOUS leaders and cannot be athiest yet you want to have an ATHIEST PRIEST cast PRIEST spells.
It just doesn't make sense.
Oh you stripped out that it was me you where quoting.
Never mind.
Before I respond to any thing else I feel its worth noting that a mage really isn't a preist without belief in a god.
A preist fills a separate roll in a party to a mage.
Im afraid I dont follow your logic that "an atheist preist does not make sense because an atheist preist does not make sense".
That is a tautology. Caps dont really do much to help make your poiint either.
I would love to know the reason it doesn't make sense.
I trust though from the focus on preist you agree atheist monks and ruids at least make sense. So I appreciate that.
As for why I think it does make sense:
The game designers have indicated that the souls themselves play an active roll in the game universe.
The description of the preist class included this statement:
" here are ranks of dedicated adventuring or mercenary priests who have turned the flame of their faith into a spark to ignite the power of their souls. Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within."
So they have clearly indicated that a preist's spells are examples of the preist's power not of their chosen ethos.
Thus an atheist preist could be described as someone who has turned the flame of their faith in humanity (elfanity? Dwarfanity? whatever) or themself or the rejection of the need for gods into a spark to ignite the power of their souls.
See fits perfectly fine.
As for it being illogical I have been told that in this world god exists, and his presents is self evident and not to belief is illogical... Yet they still exist in our world. Why would this fanasty setting be any less rich on this subject.
Especially considering one of the reasons the developers wanted to use kick starter was so they could explorer mature themes.
Pretty sure discussions about the existance of super powerful intervening pregenitors and if those pregenitors exist have rights on the ownership of mortals firmly falls in the category of mature conversations regardless your view on the answer.
So to repeat myself, stating a blind assertion in caps doesn't prove your point. Nor do tautologies also if you dont want to play an atheist priest then well dont.
peace out
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The lady of pain has come up a bit and I have to chip in on that.
On other notes I'd like to see lovecraftian gods, warhammer 40k gods, even fun entities love the american gods.
Tricksters and bullies. Creatures of madness and pain.
Just like you cant become a ceo without breaking a few laws, I doubt you could become a god in a fanastasy setting without being dark at the core.
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Theres always the dark realms of Warhammer 40k where gods a parasites that feed on souls and require active measures (Like the god emperor or the eldar soul stones) to protect the souls of the dead from consumption.
Or the twisted Cthulu approach of the souls having access to more arcane locations and the erosion or even supplanting of ones soul.
Im interested what community imspired packs will come from this.
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Choas verus Order is a better measure(Ye olde warhammer 40k where everyone is evil, its just a question if they have ocd or adhd) good verus evil is just to plain subjective.
The reputation system they are looking at makes more sense to me...
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Now I feel guilty for mocking paladins twice in the thread.
Regarding alignment: since I'm holding forth quite a bit tonight, I'd like to point out something about alignment. I hate it. Some folks see it as confining, and it undoubtedly is confining, but I see it as odious in and of itself. The questions of right and wrong, let alone good and evil, are central to philosophy and religion throughout our entire history. These are tough, often ugly, and contentious issues that have defied definition in any society. Large issues tend to find universal or near universal agreement, but fine points break down under scrutiny every time. To have such hard fast rules that are pervasive and abiding as concrete conditions in the game world is offensive at its very core. Forget about the fact that they box in the player. They render his own personal judgment moot. I say we bury alignment and celebrate by breaking open a bottle of wine. :Cant's passing around glasses of Burgundy icon:
I see alignment, especially in DnD terms, as both a role-playing crutch and a symptom of the entire DnD universe. "Demons" and the like, all playing off the more primitive aspects of human moral folklore. As an RP crutch, it sets the basic template for character behavior.
Besides being so fundamental to the DnD universe (planes of existence, etc.), I didn't like how it really tied down the classes (although that may have changed since 4ed, dunno).
One of the best things about PS:T was, not merely turning around the hard-coded alignment expectations of some races (Dak'kon, Fall-from-Grace), but the fluidity of action upon alignment. There,alignment is an internal indicator--since PS:T was a very "internal" philosophical game, it made sense to use alignment this way. But I don't see too many other games emulating this kind of story necessary for that kind of mechanic.
I really like rreputation instead of alignment, because that shifts the internalized RP mode of storytelling to a space that emphasizes interaction with the world at a narrative and dialogic level--that means we can absolutely expect significant, meaningful immersive interaction that gives shape to our character's "life" in the game.
The other problem I found with DnD alignment systems is they really relate to your motivations, but judge your fit in the alignment based on the products of your actions.
Thus a lawful evil character is as likely to get many points towards the 'good' end of the spectrum as the lawful good character.
The difference between the two comes down to why they acted that way.
And thats ignoring the fact that most people see themselves as 'good' and there enemies as 'evil' making such judgements very subjective (a paladin slaughtering a village of goblin is an example of this paradox)
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Personally I'm curious what the details are regarding the Druid.
As the alignment system is out thus the whole neutral thing wont be in play, and without that a druid is just a preist of a nature, or animal god or nature itself.
As a result I am very curious what druid means in this context.
Shape changer maybe?
Will be good to see.
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Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to offend anyone here with this post, I'm just curious about how the game will be, like most of the fans posting in this forum.
So far what I have been seeing is that any opinion, that looks like something that might not please some minority, gets locked and reprimanded immediately.I understand that offending someone is not good, but some people just have different opinions, and this must be something that everyone gotta keep in mind.
Just because you and your friends don't like someone's opinion and are insulting him, doesn't mean that this person is evil, and want you all dead. Me for example, I get insulted a lot here by crowds, that doesn't mean that I hate you all, I believe in freedom of speech and respecting other peoples different opinions.
The impression from what has been spoken so far is that this game will be made to pander specifically to certain minorities that keep spamming the forums, totally alienating the traditional values.This kind of disrespect for the traditional values is considered an insult to many people, they just don't complain and spam the forums about it, because it's common sense, that if you disregard certain values and morals, that will make your product worse.
I just want the developers to come clean about what is going on in their heads when they are making the game play and story decisions. Wouldn't that be good for the community? At the /v/ board in 4chan at least, I'm sure it would, all threads there, about Project Eternity, get derailed in a war between people defending this other people rights, and it's all about rights and politics, and degenerates, and bigots...needless to say, It's not pretty.
Maybe if we take this subject aside we could all discuss some stuff that is common grounds for all of us, like gameplay mechanics that are fun and good for RPGS, anything that won't involve politics.
I really hope this doesn't offend anyone, If it did offend you, please just PM me, let's try to work this out, no need to bring in the mods and your friends to throw stones at the ugly troll.
Just mildly curious, by traditional values you mean people who prefer advanced dungeons and dragons edition 3 play styles oposed to adapting a more so many uses per combat adnd 4th edition style?
Or is it more of a question of if armour class should go up or down as it gets better?
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I would like to point out that I can get behind atheists (or folks wanting to play atheists) in the game, but it does make it a bit snarky when my real life faith is disparaged in the process. Any educated person of faith, and I humbly submit that I am such a one, can make anti-religious, anti-theist, and atheist arguments. After all, folks of faith hear them all the time. Belief and our relationship with the world is quite difficult to quantify, but I do believe a convincing and compelling character can be made. However, will the design team find it useful to do so? If the request is for a player character atheist priest, that's a lot of specific dialogue.
Aw, what the hell, snarky can be good as long as we don't flame for several pages.
I don't think anybody wants to start a religious flamewar here. Plenty of other places to do that. No point in discussing real life faith.
I think what the rest of the atheists have been getting at is that, since the gods are more than just faith in this universe, that not believing in them would make you willfully stupid, hence why an atheist affiliation in the game would be nonsensical. However, I do think an 'anti-theist' that chooses not to worship the gods would be possible.
I agree, personally I have been trying to avoid discussing religion is anything but game terms (I think I failed to do that so twice; for that I apologise).
As for the not believing in good being willfully stupid I have to defer to the late Christopher Hitchens (I really dont want to start a fight based on this; its just he said it best).
When asked by if god did exist, and god returned and sat in judgement over Christopher how would he react.
Christopher's response was to reply that he would demand to know by what right this being believed it had moral authority over him.
Disbelief and even outright rejection in gods is not an alien concept for rpg worlds; from dragon lance, to the wheel of time, from conan, to cthulhu, from lord of the rings to narnia these questions are raised on all sides of the equation.
I really feel that the world of eternity would be richer for not excluding this subject by the simple act of baking in a belief system to a given class while granting the others so much flexibility.
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Hi, responding with account I created; As for why.
First off in response to the point about it not making sense due to the presnece of entities of emense power that claim to be gods:
The presence of gods in the world would only make you a deist not a theist and only arguably that as you could still challenge these entities in their claims of ownership and control of the mortal races.
As a result even if these entities where gods and were creators some people could perfects sanely challenge there godhood. Additionally if others aceepted their godhood they could still challenge these entities rights over them (an anti-theist in other words)just as I dont 'own' my children the gods dont 'own' me they could claim.
Its also worth noting that in real life non-atheists dont have any divinine-related powers or abilities either, mages cant throw fireballs and dragons dont fly the skies.
As in a fanasty world these things do happen why wouldn't an atheist be able to use their faith in their selves, the universe, there race, there friends or whatever to access the powers?
As for why; its easy to accept a world with dragons, goblins, elves and mages in a fanasty setting as they are so vivid and tactile.
However I find the gods in a fanasty setting are either as remote as real life or simply a macguffin charged super being who the the player can actually superpass in power.
This severely impacts my immersion. For example in the planes of power expansion of ever quest it was possible for a priest of a given god to join a raid and kill the god they worship.
Not only not losing their powers following this but actually usual their powers against the very entity that granted them.
If it is the faith in what ever that grants these powers then this is an internal consistent world, if it is the god that grants these powers then it makes no sense.
If as in the first option it is faith that grants the power (the indication was from the update its the preist's faith that power's their souls to perform the spells) then why would some choose to have faith that they dont need a god at all?
Additionally as to why, why not?
I don't want to get into a debate about this, as I'm pretty sure this will lead into territory best avoided on these forums. But suffice to say I disagree with you on this. Your reference to being able to challenge/defeat/kill the gods may not actually apply to this world. Perhaps they actually are gods in this setting and cannot be challenged or defeated by mere mortals. Given a setting in which gods are indisputably real beings, I cannot sea an atheist priest being a viable option. An anti-theist priest? Maybe, but what power would he have? What you describe about the character seems to me more like the Wizard class - even closer, a Sorcerer. Not a priest.
Thank you I appreciate your concession and rush to the common ground that atheist priests could be possible.
As for the abilities, I would suggest restoration and clairvoyance style spheres. Or to put it another way, heals, buffs, and disenchants.
As for the wizard or sorcery options a wizard bases their abilities on intellect and incantations, has no physical martial ability and must learn spells, oh an usually is a dps character not a support character. A sorcerer bases their abilities on the force of personality, can cast any spell available, also has no physical martial ability and is also a pure dps character.
A priest on the other hand bases their powers on a belief in an ethos, is granted spells by that belief, has martial ability and is fills a support role.
But I'll leave it at that, as I'm happy to accept your agreement that such a role could exist in the world setting without pushing my luck.
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Can I just say that atheist priests are a great idea, basically they have no powers and hang about shouting about how the gods don't exist.
And preists would have no powers and would shout that gods do right?
Actually that would be pretty fun, a real twist; priests with no divine powers all all, rather charm based abilities based on there abilities to manipulate.
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If anything it should be less of "Gods don't exist" and more like "All the gods are jerks and I refuse to worship any of them". Could be interesting to have a character like that.I don't think having atheist or anti-theist characters is totally bad, but they would have to have some feasible game-world explanation so we don't roll our eyes. I can think of atheist arguments within the setting, but whether they'd flesh out to be reasonable on further thought I don't know. I'm certainly not an atheist and I doubt if I make one, so no skin off my back either way.
There's also the fact that just because this race is uber powerful doesn't mean it has to be accepted by all the lord of it's sphere of creation. Many could argue that the worship of these entities is akin to cargo cults we have here.
Regardless of your real life beliefs these characters would be fun to roleplay that's for sure.
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Excellent update, what you guys are doing is amazing.
One thing I beg you for though; please please please include atheist and anti-theist spheres for priests, monks and druids.
Not as a fallen dark character either but as a paragon or noble character.
It would be so very awesome if you could include this.
Thank you
The game is set in a fictional world where the gods aren't fictional.
True, so?
We live is a non-fictional world where gods are fictional and we have theists right?
So why not a fictional world where gods are non fictional and we have atheists?
Just saying it would be nice.
Pillars of Eternity – Partnership FAQ for Backers
in Pillars of Eternity: Announcements & News
Posted
One of the reasons I sponsor games like this is to avoid the whole publisher model due to regional pricing (Im from Australia orginally).
Will this pricing result in people in Australia whole did not back this game having to pay significantly more than thoose elsewhere?