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I would like to see how the gods influence culture and day-to-day life. How small ceremonies are incorporated into people's life to correspond with gods' wills.

 

Examples:

 

- A wandering god. He/She takes on a form of a stranger and travels about watching people. They don't really indulge in mortal folk's life, yet they take serious offence at being treated poorly. As such, since one never nows if the stranger they met is a mortal or an unforgiving god - it created a culture of conversation, which demands newly met people to be polite and humble to each other.

 

- A god of battles. Since there are not many celestial wars, the favorite pasttime for this one is watching mortals' conflicts and battles. It has become customary to pray to this god before a large or important battle or before an important duel to gather the god's attention so that he could savor the fight from beginning to the end. Neglecting doing so, or instead calling for god's attention to some small insignificant or not-very-entertaining battle might upset the god, invoking his wrath.

 

- Reapers. It is customary to perform small gesture-like rituals upon dead bodies so that Reapers know to come and take away the soul into the Cycle of Rebirth, or something. Leaving many dead without Reaper-blissing might make them reanimate or pile up to attract reapers' attention later, when they will be busy with these particular bodies and neglect deadmen elsewhere. Trying to interact with the soul of dead might make reapers angry.

 

And such. Gods must not only mingle into mortals' business but also affect mortal's civilisation by simply be known to exist.

[Best RPG memory]

I think it was that fight with Bastila Shan in KOTOR. Fighting her and desperately trying to convince her to come back to your side. I had to load quite a few times. It was the only time I'd load so many times just to get a wanted outcome in the game. Usually I just let it flow.

 

And the whole DA:O experience. There were so many small story bits to discover and so many outcomes that I actually played through the game four times. Has to be my record. And the joy when my female PC actually became queen of Ferelden! Priceless!

[Gender Prejudice]

I might be wrong, but I think it's important to ask "Is this interesting?" as well as "Is this fun?". Interesing and fun are different things, but both can be equally engaging. Reading "War and Peace" certainly wasn't fun, but it was interesting. "Crime and punishment" was not fun, but it was interesting. Watching "American History X" wasn't fun at all, but it was interesting.

 

Wait a minute, now it sounds as if I don't want the game to be fun. I do. I really do want it to be fun. But I also want it to have something beyond fun, something that would make me think and learn something new about myself, rather than something to forget about the day after I beat the game.

 

I didn't start this thread to figure out if women are not as strong as men, or that there were wealthy women who could reign armies. No. It's not about that.

 

I wanted to see people think and see past real world, past the hype. I wanted to see theories about how gender would have an effect on different cultures of a fantsy world. It doesn't have to be a copy of our world. It can be something completely different:

 

Could there be a society where men and women live in separate villages and are forbidden to see each other for anything other than conception?

Or could there be a society with only one gender? Or three!? How would they react to other societies?

Or maybe there's a species in which sexual dimorphism is so great that they actually seem as two different species? How would they see human or elven visitors?

Or is it simply a smal closed society with desperate need of new blood, so that visiting men would be urged by local men to sleep with their wives?

Or maybe it's a society with no prejudices at all, and the hero himself/herself would be the one with strange notions about gender roles?

 

Think about it. Fantasize! It is REALLY interesting to ponder about these things. Maybe you'll even learn something new about youself in the process.

[No Good or Evil? Two "Grey" Choices]

People seem to miss the point of grey choices. They are not to be confused with neutral choices. Grey exists in situations where there is no right choice. Whatever action or inaction you do will lead to good and bad, so you have to choose who benefits and who suffers. Sometimes there might seem to be an apparent good choice that leads to unforeseen consequences that really made the choice grey in nature. Choosing good too often leads to winning without consequence.

Hrm. Then it's not an issue of grey choices per se but with developers deliberately marking choices with 'good' or 'bad' even if neither apply, or even if essentially the labeling is reversed. And again - spherical Good/Bad in vacuum don't exist: they have to have some conceptual backing.

 

This is greately illustrated in Star Wars: The Old Republic MMORPG. It has a not really well thought-out lightside-darkside system. But I could live with it, if not for obvious blatantly bad choice outlining.Example: you are an imperial character, boarding a republican space vessel carrying a known imperial defector. When you finally meet the traitor face-to-face he is badly injured and is at your mercy. At this point the developers give you a choice with two options: Kill the traitor(marked as a Dark choice) and Capture him alive(marked as Light choice).

 

The problem here is that developers didn't try to think, they simply marked those Dark/Light options because they had to. Because it's allegedly kind of important to have such a choice. But let me delve into logic here and see what these choices are really about:

 

1) DARK OPTION - Kill the traitor

Yes, it could be viewed as Dark choice if you kill the traitor simply because you want to. But what if you kill him out of mercy? He's already gravely wounded and suffering. Not to mention that custody isnt't all ponies and rainbows.(we'll get to that later) Doesn't that strike you as a Light choice - to kill out of mercy?

 

2) LIGHT OPTION - Take traitor into custody

That's where things get tricky, because if the first option could've been viewed as it was marked - this one has no way of being viewed as a Light Side option. It could be either a Dark one, or a cowardly Neutral one. The Dark one is obvious: The Empire is quite known for torturing prisoners well beyond the point of madness. So taking the traitor into custody you are ensuring decades of inhumane torture and pain with no release and certain ugly death in future. This is even confirmed during a later conversation with another NPC. How is that a Light choice? Well, it could be a cowardly Neutral one - when you hypocritically don't want to get your hands dirty so you let the Empire's torturers do it.

 

 

That's my problem with good/bad side mechanics - usually developers don't leave enough space for nuances. And that just doesn't help the immersion, when you look at the options provided and think: "WTF!? Neither of these is what I want to do! And you got the markings reversed on those options!@

[Gender Prejudice]

Typical racial prejudices. Not sure anything similar could work well with genders though (not without just parroting real world issues and resorting to common stereotypes).

Easy. Let's think about unusual forest dwarves. Men are fishermen and woodworkers, while women are hunters and warriors. It just historically happened to be so.

 

And now your male character meets them for the first time. Dwarven women laugh you off, since a man carrying a sword is stupid and a farce to them, they are sure that a man simply isn't capable of warfare. And dwarven males outright disrespect you for "lowering yourself to brutish fighting", instead of being a true craftmaster and devoting yourself to creation like all men in their opinion should.

[Gender Prejudice]

A lot of interesting comments. THANK YOU for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it. They are interesting to know.

 

But I'd like to address a recurring theme in many opinions. Maybe it's me who was wrong naming the thread 'prejudice' or something, but most of you see this only as an outringt darkening bit. This may very well not be something bad and dark or immoral.

 

I strongly suggest the Stormlight Archives by Brandon Sanderson. In these books, most activities are clearly divided into 'masculine' and 'feminine' without it being something bad. For example - being a warrior, an officer, a hunter - are masculine; being a scholar, a healer, a magician - are feminine. Neither are better than the other. Both a male officer and a female scholar are equally respected as they are masters in their occupations. But it is highly disgraceful for a man to be literate, as reading and writing are feminine activities. And it is highly disgraceful for a woman to pursue a military career as it's a masculine activity.

 

--

 

And yes, in different game species it may be different. Forest dwarves, for example might have roles reversed. Elves might have male warriors be on a way lower societal standing than female mystics and such.

[No Good or Evil? Two "Grey" Choices]

The problem is not having blatantly good and blatantly bad choices. It's about them being simple, being out of context and not following any concept.

 

Seriously, if a rebel tries to rouse people to overthrow the king, do you spare the rebel and let him go, join him, imprison him or just execute the bastard at the spot? That's a bit dry of a choice, isn't it? Neither option has any backing whatsoever except your mood at the moment. And neither gives you any idea why would you choose it.

 

Would you spare the rebel, because you think he will reevaluate his way of thinking? Would you join the rebel because you hate monarchy? Or would you join him to be a double agent? Would you imprison the rebel for his crimes, so that he would get himself both useful at a quarry(for the king's glory) and reform at the same time? Or would you be so angry to be woken up this early so that you'd execute the rebel on the spot? Or maybe you execute the rebel because you know about the upcoming coup and this idiot just almost blew the whole thing? Or are you really devoted to your liege and would not tolerate some riffraff badmouthing your beloved and just king? Or will you release the rebel, secretly hoping that he would succeed in assasinating the king, who you're very offended by as he did not invite you to the royal hunt last summer?

 

Morals is not universal. You can't say that something is 100% good out of context. You need to back up the available options with concepts.

[Gender Prejudice]

You could also limit human female characters to a strength of 16 out of 18 or something like that. I already do that myself for role play purposes. Anything else just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

That's not really what I'm talking about. Sure, women generally are physically weaker, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a strong, muscly woman capable of taking a few averadge attakers barehand.

 

Yes, for your own roleplay purposes it might be a good idea to limit your own choices. But because this is an internal issue - an issue of body and physique - it doesn't feel fair for a solid limit. In the end, that is an issue a character can overcome with relative ease. I'm talking about external issues - the society's look on your character based on gender, which can't be overcome easily.

 

I'm not even thinking about the amount of effort it will take to make sure all NPC conversation lines are "gender-aware"...

 

But it would be awesome if it can be done .

That's why I dub it the speculation thread.

 

I actually want to know if this is something people think about, if this is something you ponder about. My examples are crude and, frankly, I'd love to see someone else's thoughts and examples on gender prejudice in games. I think it's fun to think about it and know other people's thoughts.

[Gender Prejudice]

Alright, this is more of a specualtion thread.

 

So, we know that choosing your race will strongly determine your position in the world. Prejudices against races will be different in different lands, somewhere humans rule, somewhere they are hated. Also there have been hints that your class might have a minor influence, as to mages might be hated by some groups etc.

 

And that pushes us to the question of gender. As of late most developers, who implement gender choice in their game, tend to make the game indifferent to this choice, making it little more than a cosmetic one. Sure, your romance options may change, your visuals may change, and if conversations are voiced - your voice will change. But usually that is the limit to what is one of the most definitive characteristic of a person.

 

Indeed, in a fantasy setting, which is based on medieval times(even if a bit too loosely) wouldn't it be quite logical for many occupations and even activities to be strictly divided into masculine and feminine. Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't that be more engaging?

 

Imagine a female character. Let's say she's a warrior class, swinging sword is what she does for a living. And maybe she's quite good at it, but why would anyone newly met take her prowess and experience as granted? I can't imagine male soldiers, noblemen and such acknowledging her easily. At least at first. At least until they get to know the character better. And even then you can't expect everyone to like her. She wouldn't be trusted to go on the most important assignments, and know the most important aspects of the state of things. Maybe she wouldn't be permitted to enter a tournament or something. I even bet some self-important bastard would even take on a grudge on a woman taking up a sword. That could lead to a conflict, either open, or concealed where she is ambused in her sleep etc.

 

And now we move on. We've seen our first city, felt first grudges, fought our first foes. Now we march into more rural placees. And what do we find there? A cenobite monastery! A tied female character is gratiously taken in, offered food, water and roof to sleep under. Maybe the Grand Cenobite has a long issue needed to be resolved and she personally trusts the female character with that issue. Maybe it's not just a monastery, but a part of a grand order and the female main charachter might even have a chance at joining the order's holy warriors caste.

 

And here a male main character comes along to the monestery. He is met with deep disdain and distrust. All communication is done through a proxy - a eunuch monk. The most this male character could count on is to be offfered a sleep in the pig stalls, along with pigs. And food? Well, sure! If you can take it away from the pigs. Oh, of course the Grand Cenobite has something so ask him of as she sends her eunuch proxy with a message - chase away the wolves who love snaching away monastery's pigs. And then be on your way - we have no more use of you.

 

On the other hand, as the male charachter enters an aforementioned city, where a woman was met with great prejudice - soldiers meet him as an equal, noblemen respect him. And that one bastard who tried to assasinate the woman may even be as nice as to help the male character rise faster in the society, put in a good word for the male charater to be enrolled into high tournament and probably made an officer.

 

Now imagine gender prejudice mixed with racial one. Imagine our heroes venturing into some sort of elven(or something) society, which might be deeply matriarchal. And even though both our heroes might be insufferably human, the female would be tolerated even if considered of lesser species, whereas the male would be treated outrightly as little more than a slave.

 

 

 

Again this is a speculation thread, since gender differences this great in story are probably too much to be implemented. Yet still, isn't it fun to think about it? Itsn't it engaging to contemplate such possibilities?