moridin84
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Posts posted by moridin84
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Started the game today and this is exactly the problem I want into. I think it's a pretty big problem.
That said, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to only talk about Infinity Engine games in regards to what they are doing wrong. They are trying to improve it after all.
I'd like to bring up Divinity: Original Sin for comparison. By all rights combat should be pretty confusing, with all the environmental effects but it isn't. Part of that might be because of the fact that it's turn based but much of it isn't.
https://www.google.ie/search?q=divinity+original+sin+combat&tbm=isch
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I understand the developers are commited to release the game on the estimated date stated on Kickstarter Campaign, but we all know game content we founded is much bigger than what was first planned.All I am saying is if they need more time, that is OK with me and I hope the majority of the backers agrees with me. 'Pillars of Eternity' should not be hurried if this will compromise game quality. I am not the expert in saying this but I believe old Infinity Engine games had more than 2 years of development to be the masterpieces that they are.Developers can post a poll concerning this matter to see what our opinion is on this matter.
How do they fund a delay?
And perhaps more importantly, how do you judge what is a "better game"?
A game in development for 10 years isn't necessarily objectively better than a game in development for 2 years.
More like, a game in development for 10 years will probably be worse than a game in development for 2 years.
Taking too much time to release a game can be just as bad as taking too little. I think that if development goes on too long, developers can get sidetracked in regards to what game they are actually trying to make. For example Duke Nukem Forever or X: Rebirth.
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That said, Josh said it's between BG and BG2 length.
Well how long are BG and BG2?
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DLC material I think.
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Wait, they aren't removing buffing altogether right?
They are just removing pre-buffing. That thing when you had to spend 2 minutes buffing every time you rest and another 1 buffing before each fight. I personally never saw that as a "past glory".
That still has a major impact though. If, as a spell caster, you need to spend your first several actions in combat raising your defenses--that puts you at a major disadvantage. Those buffs better be extraordinarily powerful, because all of those classes that don't need to buff will be gunning for you. Party members may be able to screen some enemies, but not all of them--particularly ranged attacks. The second most major concern, is that having to buff every battle will seriously deplete a caster's spells per day. I doubt the protections which really make a true difference are going to be at-will abilities for that matter.
It's the big picture and all of the ripples that occur within it that has me concerned about "no pre-buffing". It seems like a minor change, but I highly doubt it. I hope I am proven utterly wrong.
The point to skipping pre-buffing is to avoid this monotonous, automatically buffing. Pushing it into combat doesn't make any sense.
Let's take a few examples of how I think they will change things.
In the old systems, this is something you would have on constantly.
In PE, this spell might be a temporary buff (10s, 30s?) which you would cast when a warrior is about to attack you or potentially another member of your party.
In the old system, this is something you would have on constantly.
In PE, this is probably a passive ability.
Works exactly the same in PE.
In the old system (once you got high enough level anyway) you'd probably cast it on the tank and expect it to last the entire encounter.
In PE, this would probably last for 10-20 seconds. Maybe you'd cast it onto a tank just before he taunts, or maybe you'd save it later on in the fight, to protect someone from a fireball for example.
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Removal of buffing has several ramifications. In many ways, buffing in the IE games could be deemed necessary. The threat of instant death spells, petrifaction, confusion, dire charm/domination, along with the prevalence of very powerful damaging spells made spell protections a rather note-worthy component. This matters, because spells possessed threat. Spells has substance and consequence if ignored.
Since then, magic has just been treated as another form of DPS in RPGs. Limited by mana, perhaps with an AoE, but otherwise no different than any other class ability. Boring. Trivial. Banal. The mediocre spells don't need protected against in any real way. You just absorb the damage with your HP like any other attack. No real distinguishing status effects either, just damage with a different animation. I see the (potential) removal of buffing as thus:
- Removing the presence of durable spell protections indicates a lack of need.
- No need for durable spell protections indicates a low level of threat from spells (IE: HP soak is adequate).
- Low level of spell threat indicates generic, uninspired spell effects.
- Boring spells, with no "need" to ward against with spells precludes any intricate and satisfying magical combat (Absorptions, Reflections, Breaches, Pierce, etc.)
I've had nearly 15 years of awful, boring, and utterly unimpressive spell systems. DA:O was supposed to save the day, but wound up being a Luke-warm MMO in terms of game play. Along comes P:E promising to resurrect the glories of the past which have yet to be duplicated or improved upon. I want to see that spell casting system intact--at the very least. No more bland magic systems because some twitch 12 year old doesn't like prudently planning out spells per day. Catering to that has poisoned the proverbial well. Enough is enough.
Wait, they aren't removing buffing altogether right?
They are just removing pre-buffing. That thing when you had to spend 2 minutes buffing every time you rest and another 1 buffing before each fight. I personally never saw that as a "past glory".
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Have you managed your pledge at the Eternity backer site?Seem to be missing a badge as well. Is there something I am supposed to do?
Status is OK.
Have you completed the entire Pledge process? If so, PM me details as usually no badges means that the process remains incomplete.
Oh opps.
I assumed the SELECT REWARD button was asking for more money. Apparently that wasn't the case (though it is the case right now so it's not like my thinking was incorrect).
So anyway, I think it's probably fine now.
The "Fulfillment" state is currently pending so I assume that when that goes pending I'll get my badges.Oh I already got my badges, cool. -
My opinion is pretty much the same as it was almost a year ago. I am so sure of it that thought Obsidian had already decided to do it that way, apparently that isn't the case. Too bad.
The topic isn't exactly the same, but I think all points transfer easily to this one.
To quote
In NWN2 or rather in any DnD based game the buff durations were all over the place. You had ones at 24 hours, 1 hour / level, 10 minute / level, 1 minute / level, 1 minute and 9 seconds. Despite that, once I got past level 10 I treated all buffs from 24 hours up to 1 minute / level as "long term" and everything else as
I couldn't be bothered, I'll just cast FIREBALL insteadshort term.So I think buffs should be split into short term buffs and long term buffs.
Long Term Buffs
The long term ones can be either be AoE (affecting all party members) or self-cast and should last until you rest (or whatever)
I remember in NWN2 where you had stat boosting spells like bull strength and owl's wisdom. These spells were level 2. By the time you got past the halfway point the level 2 damage spells were pretty crappy. So the best thing to do was fill your level 2 slots with buff spells. This meant that every time you rested you ended you having to cast a ton of single target buff spells onto the relevant party members. Annoying.
By making long term spells either AoE or self-cast you are limiting the amount of times you
canneed to cast them after you rest to precisely one.Short Term Buffs
The short term ones won't have the self-cast restriction but should only last up to the duration of the fight. I'm not sure how long fights are going to last in this game but imagine on average fights last for 2 mins. In this case, the maximum duration of a short term buff should be roughly 1.5 minutes, though it can be as short as 5 seconds.
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Seem to be missing a badge as well. Is there something I am supposed to do?
Have you managed your pledge at the Eternity backer site?
Status is OK.
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Seem to be missing a badge as well. Is there something I am supposed to do?
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You lose an arm because of some unlucky critical? That will just be super annoying.
You can avoid companion deaths (this is in Eternity right?) just by being careful with them. You can't really do anything to defend against an unlucky roll so it would just be frustrating if it happens.
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To you.
For me it adds immersion. Games have you do far more tedious and stupd s*** (like mindless grinding) for worse reasons.
Well. Agree to disagree I guess.
So if you were going on a field trip in a dangerous area, you'd insist that no one in your team knows first aid, becuae oyu dont' liek peopel who know first aid?
Frankly I'd say you were being stupid. I hardly consider it "forcing" to punish a player for obvious stupidity.
Would you complain that FPS's game force you to carry ammo with you?
But I don't like guns, I want ot paly with my fists! I don't want to be gimped compared to other players because of that!
To want to replace an entire class/function with a EQUALLY EFFECTIVE potion.....Sorry, but to me that just sounds...redicolous.
I guess you could go with a "no healer party", but a party like that would need regeneration potions, it would have to be far more carefull in combat and would probably have to return to town more often..but still doable. Harder, but hardly unexpected.
I don't want to replace a healer with a potion. I would like to be able to take an extra damage dealer instead of a healer. And in most games I could. And in this game I probably could too. The problem is that I don't have a good way of healing up my character out of combat.
Well anyway, it would be nice. Probably off-topic here though.
Whoa whoa whoa... the explanation I gave was absurd, but "Most RPGs have healers, and there's a obviously a good reason for it, otherwise, you know, why?" is a perfectly logical, well-reasoned explanation?Enlighten me, please? Could I trouble you for some details, there?
I didn't say your explanation was absurd. It's your opinion that is absurd.
You are probably going to be offended by this but... if you cannot see why people would consider your opinion (this particular one I mean) to be absurd then I don't think anyone could explain it to you.
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The main problem with the "healbot" role is that it's redundant. An entire role dedicated to that is a bit silly. They're literally spending time and resources to UNDO damage. Time and resources that could've gone towards preventing that damage in the first place. And/or you could simply have larger health bars across the board, and cut out the dedicated healer.
The ability to undo some damage? Tactical. It's kind of like a surprise, retro-active block. An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage? A little silly.
Your complete dismissal of healing and the healer "role" is so absurd it's kind of hard to argue with it. Most RPGs have healer classes. And there's obvious a good reason for it, otherwise, you know, why?
Guild Wars 2 makes an effort to avoid the dedicated healer classes but it does so by giving everyone the ability to heal, both themselves and others. And I'm pretty sure that in big PvE fights there will be players who are in a dedicated support role.
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Why not return to town if it's necessary. How long do you expect dungeons to be?
How many enemies you expect?
How woulded do you expect to end up in each fight?
How big the dungeons are is irrelevant.
Going half way through a dungeon and then having to turn back, is a hassle. Firstly due to having to travel back and forth over the place you've already been to, secondly because it interrupts the "flow" of the game. It's annoying to be interrupted when you are having fun. It's not going to be like Diablo where you get town portals or something.
Healing potions being less valubale? I'm all for it.
You seem to think I'm against the role/function/skill of a healer. I'm not.
I'm against how healers usualyl play.
In a game where you control 6 (I think?) character, I wouldn't have through actually having a dedicated "healbot" healer would be a problem. It's different in a game like World of Warcraft where you play a single character.
Though actually, I'm against being forced to bring a healer along with me*. So I want some way to heal up my characters after a fight, a cheap or free alternative to bring a healer along. Whether that's potions, or auto-healing or bandages I don't care.
*I'm actually against being forced to bring any particular character along since I only want to bring companions which I like along with me
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I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.
Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?
I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games.
I don't see why it wouldn't work. After all, JA2 is also a RPG in a way.
There is a problem with peoepl getting so accustomed to playing a specific game with the same mechanics over and over, that they start to associate the mechanic with the genre. Frankly I think that causes stailness and lack of creativity.
True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.
Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)
Well it would certainly "work" but would it make the game more fun and interesting? JA2 might be an RPG but it is quite different to Project Eternity. For example JA2 is turned based right? (I've only played JA 1)
I don't want to have to visit a dungeon and return to town multiple times.
I mean, I'm okay with the idea that you might have to return to town if you mismanage your resources (spells, potions, items, etc), I don't want to have to do it all the time it's not fun. So it's okay if the dungeon is harder than I thought, or if I forgot to bring some stuff, or I didn't bring any fire-based attacks because I wasn't expecting
The Spanish Inquisitiontrolls..And heal-bot classes would be gone.
That is something I wouldn't mind, as it's especially horrible in MMO's. Over-specialized, 1 trick ponies who are boring to play. Stand behind the fighter and heal, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It's also downright silly when you think about it.
You do realize that the more complicated you making healing damage/injuries, the less valuable you make potions, the more likely you are going to have to bring a dedicated healer right? Even if just for out of combat healing.
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Personally I don't want to spend a lot of time thinking and worry about potions. For example I find the Alchemy stuff (especially the gathering) in the witcher games to be a pain.
I'd be fine with potions on cooldowns, a potion belt, slow healing potions or even a combination of all three. All these implementations limit the power of potions while encouraging their use without causing a micromanagement headache about something which, in the end, isn't that bloody important.
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Good point, Moridin. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the sincere, perfectly reasonable answer.
I just figured asking briefly about it here was better than firing up a whole thread about it. I was just curious why people frowned so much on it, as I saw value in it in many ways as an alternative to making a whole new thread just because there was a lull in discussion of a particular topic.
So, really, thanks again. ^_^
Awesome.
I've been "hit" by at least 3 necros so far* so I'm happy I managed to discourage at least one person from it.
*any more and I might start checking the timestamp at the start of every thread
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I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.
Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?
I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games.
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Thanks! I learned so many helpful facts from this:
1) If we're able to, in any way, deduce the probability that Obsidian's already made a decision about the topic of discussion (and that that decision is definitely set in stone) based on pure speculation, no discussion of said topic should take place.
2) If someone DOES want to start a new topic about something that's already been discussed a while back, it's better that the new thread potentially mimic the old thread without anyone being the wiser, since the actual review of existing discussion on the topic is pure folly.
3) If we feel that completely pointless discussion is going on, we should actually contribute to that discussion, ourselves, with argument against the discussion having any purpose whatsoever.
*scribble scribble scribble*. *click*. Got it. *closes notepad*.
Sorry about my ignorance of these things. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.
Threads shouldn't be necro'd because people might read the thread from the start things thinking it's a new thread. I certainly read the first 4 pages before accidently going to the last page and saw the comment about the necro.
This is a (often) a waste of time for several reasons. Such as the fact that the discussion is based on out-of-date information, or that the people discussing the topic might not even have the same opinions (if they are even still around) or that the discussion may not be relevant anymore.
A bit off topic but I think necroing threads is something to be discouraged.
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A dockable resizeable conversation window makes sense for multiplayer games where you will have conversations while doing other things. It doesn't really make sense in a single player game where you can't really do much else while having a conversations.
At the same you don't want the conversation window to block the screen.
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It's Project Placeholder Here This Page Intentionally Left Blank.
Project Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
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http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/884980
How about no PS4 Controller and just plug in your regular USB/Bluetooth KB & Mouse into the PS4?
Wait... why bother with a PS4 port at all then?
Besides, keyboards and mice are optional for consoles, there's no way you can release a game on a console and tell them that they have to use a keyboard and mouse, they have to make it playable with the standard controller.
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A bookshelf which visibly fills ups as you put books into it would be cool.
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I would say that it is impossible to have a multi-platform game in which the PC version, the most complex version, does not suffer as a result of the least complex version, the console version.
Master-race types are just closet airport bathroom-stall console gamers. Don't be scared, it's fun. Chris Roberts disproves your imaginary complexities:
Roberts said that a PS4 version of [star Citizen] is definitely possible, after the PC version will be complete and stable, as the PC version itself remains the primary focus. Porting to PS4 would be pretty easy as CryEngine already works on the console and there would be no need to compromise anything important. After all, the more players the better.
If Star Citizen can go PS4, so can Eternity.
Umm, isn't Star Citizen a space simulator? It looks like something that can be easily played using a controller.
Update #87: Internal Play Testing, VO, Performance Optimization, Mac Build, and More
in Pillars of Eternity: Announcements & News
Posted
An "internal play week" sounds serious, in reality the entire company has actually been slacking the entire week?