Wirdjos
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Posts posted by Wirdjos
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Oh, and I just noticed Feargus says this about the Health/Stamina:
I was on the fence about the Stamina / Health thing as well. My thought on it right now is that it is worth implementing (not a ton of work) and then we can see how it feels. If it doesn't feel good, then we will change or pull it.
I just don't really understand them (Obsidian) anymore.
We will spend our time and effort to implement a fix to the system that is not broken, and if this new artificial system of splitting HPs to two pools (one of them regenerating!) will not feel like IE, we will change or remove it, basically we will again effort and time to remove it and rebalance all abilities and spell to old system.
Guys. Seriously. Please do not fix that is not broken. Use your time on balance, story and quality of your product. Do not experiment.
I believe you disagree with Obsidian on the bolded point. The message I've been recieving is that they do believe the rest system to be broken. I agree that there are many different ways of fixing this issue, they have simply (and only currently) chosen this one way of fixing it. Either way, and please people correct me if I'm misreading, they do think the system is broken.
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I've not played it, but DARKLANDS (MicroProse 1992) is cited by Josh as the inspiration for the health/stamina combo (there's some debate as to whether the mechanic to restore stamina is similar to, or faster, than Darklands).
Ok, so you haven't played it, but nevertheless think that it's a good game and good mechanic. Okay.
Then let me tell you one thing - I haven't played it either and I even don't know what is this game about. But I played all IE games that Obsidian use as an example of what they want to do, and they wanted us to believe, that they will do it right way. And I was 100% sure, that they will keep their promise. Right now, I'm only 90% sure and my faith can be pushed only so far, you know.
Darklands is $5.99 on GOG.com. I don't know anything more about it than you do, but there it is at least. I understand that any news of the developers possibly going in a different direction than the IE games that they advertised P:E as being based on might be alarming. But you do have to remember that it is only based on the IE games and designed with those games in mind, it will not be a direct clone of an IE game. Like you mentioned in your previous post, this is one way to fix the sleep spaming issue. You might agree with the move, you might not. But it was explained to you that the health/stamina system had been used before successfully. The only way that you will know if you agree with that is if you play a game that used it.
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This is the internet so random raging is going to happen and should be expected. This is not the first time parts of this community has freaked out and it won't be the last. All we can do is keep calm and remind the community at large what this is and what our role in it is. I'm actually more concerned with this:
Additionally, I think dlux's leaving may have had to do more with unkind words than whatever the developers are planning.
I missed anything that happened after dlux pulled their pledge, so everything I know is rather second hand. But I haven't heard anyone else suggest it was other something other than disagreeing with the game direction. What happened and did it have anything to do with other posters?
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For the sake of the game though, I really hope it takes more than a few vocal whiners (even ones consided "high profile" like dlux) to make Obsidian back out of a good idea. Especially something as significant as how health or XP works.
Why do you think that these ideas are great in the first place?
I, for example, don't think that regenerating "health" is a good thing. And who is right?
I didn't think we were getting regenerating health at all. I thought the devs had come up with a system that allowed health to be more punishing than it has been in most games I've played while allowing enough leeway to keep the game flowing smoothly. Did I miss a comment somewhere? I have been known to.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about, OP. Would someone mind adding a quote or a link to this?
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It's good to see people banding together and trying to keep this a safe place for the developers to share information. They shouldn't be afraid that half the community will flip out over any news that is not completely fleshed out. I also wanted to mention that I missed the whole dlux fiasco, as it apparently became, and I doubt I'm the only one.
I also liked DA2 alright, OP. I just think they took all the exaggerated critism from the first seriously and did exactly what the loudest fans were asking.
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I've been asking for an answer to this since I realized that I wouldn't have enough money for the tier I wanted by tomorrow. I doubt anything will be announced until after the kickstarter closes as the news might affect pledges. All the same, it would be great to know if I should pull out from kickstarter and put that money into paypal before kickstarter charges me, so who knows, maybe the last update will tell us about their post kickstarter fundraising plans. Either way, I'm sure we'll get some kind of second chance to buy some of the things we might have missed this go around.
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Combining ideas from both of your posts Vox Draco and Eskarion, I think that lodging actually does solve part of the money immersion issue. Rest should be bacially required for adventuring purposes (ie health and spells), though I wouldn't mind fatigue taking a nosedive if you say up for more than 24 hours game time. Either way rest and lodging would be important which would mean that money used to pay for lodging is also important. If this is made to cost enough, the player gets a continuous link between their money and their character. Wbn had some more interesting ideas that I would like to see implemented, but money = safe rest seems like the place to start.
It seems that requiring food, water and sleep for your characters isn't considered good design nowadays. These things are mostly seen as annoyances, things that take the player "away from the fun". Alas, people don't really like this simulationist approach anymore. It may just be that the people backing Project Eternity are "hardcore" enough to want this kind of stuff in the game. But I wouldn't count on it. I'd settle for a weight-limited & slot-limited inventory, to be honest.
I wasn't thinking of a system that required players to buy food supplies or directly manage food/water consumption, but simply folding these in with rest. The old IE games required you rent a room to avoid random encounters while you slept. It would be assumed that you were paying for food and water that was consumed during your resting time. By further requiring this safe rest time through a fatigue draining mechanic, players would be further tethered to safe areas. I've actually seen people on the boards asking for that sort of tethering. The only change from the IE games I was suggesting was that renting a room cost more than the 10-100 gold it did beforein order to create a natural money sink and to link money to the direct survival of your party.
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I also am very much pleased that we won't have to deal with resurrection, mostly because the effects it would have on society are never well realized.
This is the most important plus in my book. I would have a difficult time finding a way to make resurrection affect the setting without making the whole game revolve around ala P:T. However, the scene where Galuf dies and everyone is desperately pumping phoenix downs into him with no effect was pretty moving.
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I enjoyed DA's voice overs as well, but I always had a problem with my character in that system. In Origins he never spoke which, with everyone else talking, made it easy to RP only two types of characters, the stoic possibly retarded victim of circumstance or the unspeaking sociopath. Trying to fix this in 2 by giving my character a voice really just took the character away from me. Playing Planescape:Torment after DA, I actually felt like TNO was more mine than Hawke and TNO actually has a predefined history. I don't think full voice overs are the way of the future, as least as far as real RPGs are concerned, but I do enjoy hearing a line or two from the predesigined companions so that I get a feel for their voices.
This in a nutshell is the appeal of the silent protagonist, its an empty vessel for the player to insert him/herself into the story.
That's true. The silent protagonist is appealing because it allow the player a way into the game, but this becomes an issue when the protagonist is forced to be silent and he's the only one that is. The player character still needs to be able to talk to affect chance in the world around him which then must be reduced to text to keep him silent. I never figured out how to bridge the gap between a silent protagonist with full voiced companions. I couldn't help but feel like I was reading lines with them, but perhaps that's just a personal problem.
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Combining ideas from both of your posts Vox Draco and Eskarion, I think that lodging actually does solve part of the money immersion issue. Rest should be bacially required for adventuring purposes (ie health and spells), though I wouldn't mind fatigue taking a nosedive if you say up for more than 24 hours game time. Either way rest and lodging would be important which would mean that money used to pay for lodging is also important. If this is made to cost enough, the player gets a continuous link between their money and their character. Wbn had some more interesting ideas that I would like to see implemented, but money = safe rest seems like the place to start.
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I don't think anyone even wants full VO. At least not a majority. So they're not even considering it. It's not just about the money, they've got just about 18 months to get this game to the market, not long.I want to ask one more thing ..its off topic here so I apologise ...
Why don't they run kickstarter for addtional 30 days and say get money for full voice overs etc ?
It is possible and can be done.
I suppose you are right ... I like full voice over .a la dragon age ....it brings a atmosphere to the game ....
Maybe next time then ....lol
I enjoyed DA's voice overs as well, but I always had a problem with my character in that system. In Origins he never spoke which, with everyone else talking, made it easy to RP only two types of characters, the stoic possibly retarded victim of circumstance or the unspeaking sociopath. Trying to fix this in 2 by giving my character a voice really just took the character away from me. Playing Planescape:Torment after DA, I actually felt like TNO was more mine than Hawke and TNO actually has a predefined history. I don't think full voice overs are the way of the future, as least as far as real RPGs are concerned, but I do enjoy hearing a line or two from the predesigined companions so that I get a feel for their voices.
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its been hinted to be structured in a similar way as Fallout was i.e. critical path was -obtain waterchip, -defeat the Master- but Fallout had so much more to do than just that (extra content) and the critical path was hidden among all of it.
so my hope is that the critical path of PE is the size of one of the IE games, but with all the extra content (especially now with the 2nd city) that it reaches 100+ hours.
This is what I'm hoping for. I love a good long game that lets you get immersed in the world and its conflicts. But I share Ignatius' problem with replaying long games. I want a game that will take me 100+ my first time, but a second more focused playthrough might take half that and third playthrough just doing the main quest and maybe some missed content might take only 20-30 hours. I like range in my games. I like to decide how I'm going to play a game as opposed to deciding to play this or that game based on length.
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Well, it might be cheetahs, I'm not sure. But I do remember a feline species hunting elephants in a documentary.
I think I just watched that on youtube, and the commentary grossly overplayed the situation... yes, seven lions attacked a lone adult female elephant, but they were unable to bring her down. I don't think they make a habit of it, especially if there's more than one elephant, which is usually the case as females travel in groups. Male elephants travel alone, but they are much larger than females (up to twice the weight) and more aggressive, so lions seem to steer clear of them.
It's quite common for lions to attack a young elephant though.
Lions hunting elephants didn't make much sense to me either considering what a hippo can do to a lion. Like Macbeth mentioned with Risen, I like the idea of giant herbivores because it sounds like it would make the world feel a little more natural. And honestly, I would like it if the world wasn't constantly trying to kill me for once. That gets a little old after a while.
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I'm more interested in an attempt to capture the feel of the IE games than attempting to reproduce the mechanics exactly. We have BG Enhanced if we want an old game with new technology. I want a new game in a new world with new mechanics that have the same feel as the old well written and well loved games of the Infinity Engine.
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I had an early idea that firearms would be interesting in a setting where warfare included dealing with enormous beasts and magic, meaning that their single-shot potency at range was not as much of a "game changer" in mass combat as it was in Earth's history.
This kind of stuff makes me happy. I enjoy logical health systems and the like as well, but this sort of logical historical reasoning is the kind of thing that gets me up in the morning. Everytime Sawyer talks about this world, he seems to mention something like this. It sounds like we're going to get a game that isn't necessarily historically accurate, but has very strong internal logic. Which is just awesome.
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I actually just finished my first playthrough of Planescape:Torment thanks to this project. I don't know why but other than the trailer clip in BG, I never heard anyone talking about the game. It was really great. I'd recomend it, Savy. I'm already planing on going back and finishing the game with the other two companions I didn't have room for.
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While I can see that some may be upset about others getting rewards they "shouldn't" be entitled to, I find it to be a bit counter productive; you're essentially wishing that others shouldn't have what you have, and that you are willing to sacrifice the quality of your own "investment" in order to prevent the happiness of others. All to preserve artificial scarcity. It's a rather destructive mindset, really.
It is not that people are being mean spirited, it is that the KS is a limited period "offer" kind of deal. Back us during this period and we give you this. The money donated is coming out of each individuals pocket and you have to respect that whichever way you look at it. I like the fact that Feargus actually brought it up, there is the respect right there.
It really has nothing to do with feeling entitled but all about someone asking, someone giving and a mutual respect. Many people donating are really digging deep because the KS is such a short period and they really are behind the projects success. You think they feel entitled to something after spending their own money on something that at the time they didn't know was going to happen or not? Upping their pledge to reach X goal because they really want it to happen.
Then after doing all of that someone says; "hey we really didn't need all that money in that 30 day period, you can just buy whatever you want for the next 18 months until release".
Think about the people who don't have a crap tonne of cash to lay out and have donated in the lower tiers, if they knew from the start they could buy at any time in the next 12 months they may have never pledged at all simply due to financial circumstances and maybe the KS would not have reached its first goal at all.
If we start analysing this too much you can come up with a dozen reasons why people should or shouldn't do certain things but myself I think the idea behind the KS (donate in limited period to kickstart the project) should be maintained and the respect for the pledges in that period should be recognised as the project continues.
As sad as it makes me, I really agree with you here. The kickstarter did need people to pledge more than they could afford to reach stretch goals and give Obsidian an idea of the support behind the project. People did that and did it quickly. They should be rewarded for it. Perhaps they will make special considerations for people that have already pledged and would simply be adding to it after the fact. I don't know. Whatever the case, I saw my goodies fly out the window when I read this. You are completely right, the early pledgers need to be respected.
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^ Yes, but who should wear the boob plate. I have already suggested elsewhere that Sawyer should don a chainmail bikini to raise money.
I'm voting Adam Brennecke. But the whole line up of developers we've seen so far would look pretty awesome with matching sets of boobplate armor. Perhaps all doing the can-can. Why am I cackling?
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I think it's a good idea for any criticism on this project to be heavily tempered by the fact that we are only seeing the very beginning of this game. Bobby Null confirmed that the current map is just a mockup. Most of the rest of the game is also at that stage. The second thing that you have to remember is that kickstarter is not a store. The Collector's edition and the cloth map and such that you get at the $140 tier are all thank yous, not purchases. If you want all these things for what they should cost, wait until the game is up for sale.
I understand why someone wouldn't get these things right away. This way of doing things isn't the norm. The public usually doesn't see these projects til they are nearly complete. This is something newcomers should try to understand and people already here should understand when dealing with people noticing P:E for the first time.
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I am in favor of all the hardback books this project can produce. Novella, nudge nudge. This late in the game, it definitely makes sense to add it to the Obsidian store they are cooking up after the kickstarter is done though. Just keep the whole thing out of the game funding and start collecting actual revenue for the franchise.
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BEARDED. CATS. The best of both worlds!
I've got a prototype for you.
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3.5 is to dream the (im) POSSIBLE dreeeeem!
I thought it was supposed to be impossible, but after the amount gained over the last two day, I'm not so sure any more.
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I don't see why anyone would be against an extended fundraiser; you're not losing anything. In fact, the more money they get, the more likely they are to deliver a quality product (or deliver at all), which is the entire reason behind the kickstarter in the first place. It's also possible that the more t-shirts and physical boxes they "sell", the cheaper they become to produce, which may shift more of the funds towards actual development.
While I can see that some may be upset about others getting rewards they "shouldn't" be entitled to, I find it to be a bit counter productive; you're essentially wishing that others shouldn't have what you have, and that you are willing to sacrifice the quality of your own "investment" in order to prevent the happiness of others. All to preserve artificial scarcity. It's a rather destructive mindset, really.
Not that the fundraiser should be extended forever; as the project progresses and things get locked down, it will become harder and harder to add new features and certain types of content. Similarly, you can always add developers—especially programmers and artists—to meet the deadline, but with increasingly diminished returns. At some point there will be no point in additional funds, unless it's also accompanied by a bumped deadline, but this is hardly a concern right now.
It's the bolded bit that I was interested in, seeing how many people felt that way. Basically, if there would be an outcry if Obsidian just decided to extend the whole thing and act as if the kickstarter didn't shut down in a month. The bread in this post sandwich is more or less how I feel. No one loses anything unless Obsidian just keeps taking donations and expanding the game until April 2014. I'm glad to see that I'm not seeing a lot of posts in that direction, though that could be a survey of who is posting and not how people feel. Would a poll have been more effective?
The End of The Beginning
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
Now I'm really confused. I was working off a comment you made earlier that mentioned the intent of the health/stamina system was to fix the rest system via sleep spaming. I added it to my argument because it sounded reasonable. Below is the line I'm talking about bolded. Please help me understand.