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Darji
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Posts posted by Darji
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The argument is this.
Obsidian allowed it in. This was them choosing to let it in their game.
Now people are demanding it be pulled. AFTER Obsidian chose to let it in. That WAS their choice, was it not?
Possibly. In which case they'll leave it in. But things do slip through the cracks that are not always commensurate with the ideals of your studio. Particularly in large projects with a lot of moving parts. Josh wants to look into it. If the answer from the producers is "Oh, we just had two people sit in a room and gave them two days to log all the data after the initial cull. I guess we missed this." then that's what happened, y'know? The realities of a dev cycle are complicated and Kickstart stuff only makes for more complications you can keep track of. I've been there and that was on projects not even close to the scale/funding of Pillars.
Ok another solution.
Let the backers decide through a poll if Obsidian feels pressure through social mobs.
Or as the best solution: a Patch which gives you the option to disable these messages. Done Everyone should be happy.
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This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.
Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.
Sure. But again They already approved it so they never thought it was bigoted in any way. I can handle a developer not wanting something in . But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed.
And Honestly I am sick of these people. Be offended as much as you want but never force your morals on others.
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How about the majority of people here who actually dont want it to be removed?
I figure the whole "it's Obsidian's choice" thing would have made clear who I place more capital on in the struggle you're painting. As someone in the field, I think the choice is left to the creator. Do I have a preference? Sure. But you can't talk about mobs in one sentence and then make an argument to the people right after.
I do not organize on Twitter and aks twitter and co to put pressure on them like they do. I do it for myself only no one else. That is a huge difference in my opinion. And I will say it again. If they actually have a choice sure if they are like now pressured into a "choice" its Censorship.
And Again it was already approved and that should count nothing else.
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Even is if this is true what I personally do not believe there is a problem of over analyzing things. Lets take a dumb Movie like Rocky 4 for example. It is pure fun and dumb entertaining but if you over analyze it you can see it as a anti Russia cold war movie and slam it for that instead of enjoying dumb fun.
The thing is...there's not "wrong" way to engage with or consume art. If someone wants to do that, they're not doing anything worse than the person who is enjoying the dumb fun. Perhaps, for them, the analysis was the fun. Art is experiential. Regardless, I'm getting off topic so I'm going to generally shy away from more talk of politics and such. The end of the day? We all interpret content through different lenses. Some might find things they take exception to.
The question is if Obsidian thinks the content in question is fitting of their created world and in line with whatever values they want to convey to customers/clients. The choice is their's to make. The thing to consider is what you will do if they take action you disagree with. Merely be disappointed or kick and scream and pout?
So you think putting public pressure through a social media mob is not a try of censorship and that its fine? A twitter mob is very effective and that is really a sad thing in my opinion. Because as a company you never want to trend on twitter with negative comments.
How about the majority of people here who actually dont want it to be removed?
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ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.
This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.
Yes it is. If you really believe that censorship can only be enforced by the Government you really should wake up from your utopia world you live in.
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Allegory and applicability are two very different things. One is deliberate, and in another any kind of parallels are only a side effect.
Allegory doesn't have to be deliberate because individual audience members interpret different signs in vastly different ways at times. Semotics is a process that tends to be experiential and centered on the person engaging with the text.
"No work is apolitical?"
Come on. That's insane! Not everything has to be about politics! It's only all politics to someone who has chosen to make politics their identity.
Politics is merely the art and practice of interacting with other individuals. Art, as something that individuals make which then interacts with other people, is necessarily political because it involves people.
Even is if this is true what I personally do not believe there is a problem of over analyzing things. Lets take a dumb Movie like Rocky 4 for example. It is pure fun and dumb entertaining but if you over analyze it you can see it as a anti Russia cold war movie and slam it for that instead of enjoying dumb fun.
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And frankly it would turn off a huge portion of the player base by bringing real world issues into a game based in an imaginary world.
No created work is apolitical or without allegory. If the only issue is that people would be put off by the existence of politics, they shouldn't be engaging with art at all.
TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form.
Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that.
If presented in that context? Sure. I don't think it'd be as much an issue.
Then why is this? Have you never seen a dumb sentence on a grave stone about something stupid a person did and then died? Again it makes clearly fun of the person commit suicide because of this. It does not make fun of the trans person in any way. Nor does it shame the women
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TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form.
Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that. That is my problem with this whole debate that is going on. Too much over analyzing too much shaming for harmless **** the movie or book industry would not even care to address.
I am already honestly scared how these people will shame Witcher 3 and MGSV which will also deal with very heavy topics and are way more main stream.
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Okay, reopened. We mods have had to watch this thread all day and we also needed a minute to gather our breath.
The Obsidian forum policy has always been: you can have any opinion you like, you can express it in rather firm ways, and you can also have some joke and banter. We will try to moderate as little as possible, and let you guys talk about things. Obsidian as a company prefers this as well. But we do draw the line at personal attacks, at deliberately infuriating other people, and other things that degrade the conversation and the community for everybody.
This is obviously a sensitive topic for people. No matter where you stand on it, we ask that you stay minimally civil, and respect that other people may have different opinions, and that this doesn't mean they have terrible intentions, are terribly stupid, or whatever else. We will keep a close eye on this thread. We don't want to stop discussion, but we will have to close it if there's too much abuse, since there's only so much mods can do to keep up. We think there have been plenty of civil and reasonable posts as well as some excessive ones, so we hope the former that is the majority keeps up.
Thank you for doing this. I know this controversy in games right now is always pretty intense but I am glad you let people discuss these issues. Of course Personal Attacks should never be tolerated.
Also Does this mean Obsidian is reading this as well? If so. If you want to go the middle way just release a Patch with an Option to disable these messages and if some people still offended by it, then they are not really worth listening too since they are extremists and just want tp push some Agenda.
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nobody is forcing obsidian to do anything. there is no censorship... period.
HA! Good Fun!
Actually, no, that's not true but it doesn't really matter as people censor things all the time (e.g. if you know your grandmother doesn't like swearing you might self-censor cursing while around her). It's still censorship.
There is a difference of self censoring your OWN speech and demanding that everyone gets to suffer from censorship because you don't like it. Again you can already self censor your game with the mod. That should be more than enough.
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it boggles the mind.
*shrug*
poe is a commercial product, so this ain't a free speech issue... period. obsidian is trying to make money, and they gotta needs be more sensitive than the typical misanthropic college undergrad.
...
the bit o' backer nonsense is harmless to Gromnir, but it offends some. take same bit o' backer drivel and make it reference jews or blacks or a dozen other traditionally disenfranchised groups and we would not be having this conversation, would we? only the most obtuse and social inept 'mongst us would fail to recognize that obsidian needs be careful 'bout including crude racial and religious content in their games, not that we don't have a few such folks posting. hell, some o' our more prolific posters on this board has run afoul o' moderators 'cause o' their pro-nazi iconography, and that is simple message board postings. such board stuff is censored immediately and without apology by the board moderators. have such stuff in a game has a much greater chance to harm obsidian reputation, so one would expect greater sensitivity in their commercial releases, yes?
poe ain't the south park game.
again, the backer content don't concern us personally, but there is no free speech issues. there is no evil censorship worth fighting.
HA! Good Fun!
Yes there is. A small loud minority on Twitter or social networks extremists are demanding the removal of some content or else they will be judged as transophobic or even worse. This is exactly how censorship works. They do not speak for a majority of people who bought the game nor should they matter in the end.
They are just the loudest right now.
And I will say it again. If this gets removed I want my money back and they can delete the game form my steam list. There is already a mod which removes this joke. There is no reason for Obsidian to react at all.
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Not an issue. Only crybabies worry about such small potatoes. if anything the tombstone is making fun of a man who would kill themselves over such a situation as it paints them as wussies and cowards. Oh noess.. TRIGGERED pro suiciders. Obsidian did NOTHING wrong here.
So if it is such a complete non-issue, why are there a ton of people shouting about how it would be a TRAVESTY and an ATTACK ON FREE SPEECH to remove a dumb vulgar joke that QC should have caught, but didn't, from the game? If it is, to you, a non-issue - and I totally agree that to anybody who doesn't particularly care about being inclusive, it really should be - then why not just go "oh okay, lets remove that then" and be done with it? The torrent of complaints by people who are not, at all, affected by this is baffling.
Really? That is your answer? It is about Censorship and its a far higher issue than some stupid joke some people may or may not find offensive. It is not about being offended you always should have the right to be offended by something. It is about the issue of calling for censorship because you personally or a very small minority is offended by it.
How can people be so insensitive these days. You dont need to be protect by everything you may or may not find scary and especially you should NEVER EVER try to force your morals or standards on other people.
Again: Patch in the option to disable these messages but anything else is Censorship and should not be tolerated by any means.
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If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc. It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass.
If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money.
edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces. How is that less offending to human life than a joke?
There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.
I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.
No the only option would be to be able to disable these messages nothing else. Removing is Censorship and I for example will never stand for Censorship in any form.
If not I also want my Money back and they can delete my Steam version since I will never tolerate any form of Censorship.
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You know what else would be censorship? If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."
Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.
YES Censorship is always evil. You never should censor the thought of an artist no matter how offending it is. That is how classic literature was established. It was always something very taboo back then., It dealt not only with heavy topics but also was very political at its times. It was approved by the team because they thought its totally fine and therefore it should stay in there.
Again if you do not like it. There is a mod on twitter which will remove this joke. Use that .
I think calling some random backer an artist is pushing it here, buddy.
Everything created by a human is art. No matter the quality and he/she created it. So yes he/she is the artist. Is it a high form of art? No of course not but that should not matter at all.
And if you go all out. Charlie Hebdo was also an artist and there were over 5 million people marching on the street against censorship and Freedom of speech. Do you do not have to like something but you always should defend the right for its existing.
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You know what else would be censorship? If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."
Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.
YES Censorship is always evil. You never should censor the thought of an artist no matter how offending it is. That is how classic literature was established. It was always something very taboo back then., It dealt not only with heavy topics but also was very political at its times. It was approved by the team because they thought its totally fine and therefore it should stay in there.
Again if you do not like it. There is a mod on twitter which will remove this joke. Use that .
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Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads.
People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices.
Just in sake of fairness - this tomb-stories easily are one of the worse things in game, and even old-school community on this forums asked to remove them all in several threads.
People protecting this particular joke like their own child, not because joke is good, but to oppose social justie warriors and dont give them even an idea to use social media to correct game content by their choices.
First of all it is Censorship and we never should do that at all. There is even a patch now which lets you remove the joke from the game and if you feel harmed by it then use that. But asking to censor something because you are offended is not the right way. Censor your own game but not the original game.
Is it a dumb Joke? But it fits the universe. Its like a bard singing a stupid song in a tavern. Don't forget we are dealing in this world with homophobic, topics, rape, Murder and so on. It is not a pleasant world and everything should reflect this.
Sp yes if you are sensitive and you can not deal with mature themes and even jokes than you should censor your game through mods.
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Yeah Obsidian should never give in into these nut jobs who get offended even by the weather....
1. It is a mature game
2. It was already approved by the team and should not be censored at any costs.
Seriously it is not even trans phobic not in anyway. This whole I am offended by this so you need to remove it should really stop. Its fine if you are offended by something but that does not give you the right to call for Censorship.
It would be really a shame if Obsidian gives into this pressure of a social media Mob....
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Yeah Obsidian should never give in into these nut jobs who get offended even by the weather....
1. It is a mature game
2. It was already approved by the team and should not be censored at any costs.
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GUYS, THE KEYS
I knew exactly what that was going to be, but I still couldn't stop myself from clicking it.
I did the exact same thing and I actually learned that apparently Rick Astley songs are now blocked in Germany.
Heaven forbid Germany ever listen to music.
GEMA is a real joke they even block korean and japanese indy music. It is insane.
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I wonder what Obsidian thinks of all us maniacs sitting here refreshing a mile a minute, ready to pounce on the keys when they arrive, and nearly going insane with anticipation?
ISnt that the best thing a developer could ask for. But man this march is just insane with so many great stuff coming out. It is probably even a pretty bad time to realse such a huge RPG.
In the last 5 days:
Final Fantasy Type Zero (FFXV demo)Life is Strange ep 2
Game of Thrones ep 3
BloodbornePillars of eternity.
How can I play all this....
Erased the popamole console crap.
The fact that you think Bloodborne is crap means you don't know and haven't played two of the greatest RPGs of all time, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2. If you like RPGs at all you should fix that right now.
Dark Souls is a pretty bad game. I have nothing against hard games, but DS is ridiculous.
Dark Souls is all about being patience and not to rush things. Also do not be greedy and it is not that hard of a game. It is certainly harder than modern video games but thats it.
Also If you want to get an easier game play Dark Souls 2 which is also called Casual Souls by many people^^
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We certainly are an impatient bunch.
Then again, it's totally justified.
For Sure. How long did we wait for a kind of Baldurs Gate Successor?^^
The only one who comes close to it was maybe neverwinter Nights 2. But otherwise?
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ISnt that the best thing a developer could ask for. But man this march is just insane with so many great stuff coming out. It is probably even a pretty bad time to realse such a huge RPG.
In the last 5 days:
Final Fantasy Type Zero (FFXV demo)
Life is Strange ep 2
Game of Thrones ep 3
Bloodborne
Pillars of eternity.
How can I play all this....
You're having a giggle aren't you mate?
No because that is not even all I bought in March. It was a really expensive month for my wallet.^^
Luckily the next one I need to play is Witcher 3 in May which i already paid so I can rest until MGSV for the most part^^
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I wonder what Obsidian thinks of all us maniacs sitting here refreshing a mile a minute, ready to pounce on the keys when they arrive, and nearly going insane with anticipation?
ISnt that the best thing a developer could ask for. But man this march is just insane with so many great stuff coming out. It is probably even a pretty bad time to realse such a huge RPG.
In the last 5 days:
Final Fantasy Type Zero (FFXV demo)
Life is Strange ep 2
Game of Thrones ep 3
Bloodborne
Pillars of eternity.
How can I play all this....
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Glad they did decide to give it a couple more months before they going to release it. Now my best bet would be that they prolly release it by eigther end of March or early to mid April. Releasing it Januar would be not enough time to really give it a quality polish (or at least that is what I would think). And releasing it Feburary well thats were The Witcher 3 will be getting all the attention (considering that the Witcher 3 is at the very top of a lot of peoples most anticipated game list I think that is a fair assumption).
Best release dare would be near Summer to be honest. If they released it this year they had to "fight" against Dragon Age which they can not win. Feb is Witcher 3 of course no chance. June or July seems like a great date and gives them some time too.
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Memorials problem.
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
I said before everything created by a human being is for me art. Its not high art or quality but that is not whats art about. Art is something a human being created with his own mind/hands etc. No matter the quality.