perkel
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Posts posted by perkel
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These things have to be done... delicately.
Kreia and Bishop are among my favorite characters because they are deceitful and manipulative. It makes them interesting. But it's also deliberately taking control away from the player and railroading them down the path the untrustworthy character wants you to go. If done right it adds a great amount of uneasiness and dread to the plot, but if done wrong (see Anders in DA2) it can make the invisible hand of the game designer too apparent.
Hand of developer is what must be avoided. It's standard in gaming that developer is responsible for creating, delivering and resolving events but real fun for player is when he is the one who solves problem not developer. So player must have some clues and he judges on those clues. So when you confront a villain which is accused of murdering someone and you have clues there should be no explanation like in 99% of games (hahaha yes i was the one !) but He should still say it wasn't me ! And you if you have sold proofs should judge him even if he is saying it wasn't me.
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Well I think it's not so much about the lies as it is about having their own agenda, and the protagonist's well-being might not be their biggest concern. A good story is character driven and not plot driven. If you can motivate npc actions through them having their own agendas I think you'll get a rich tapestry with plenty of lying and backstabbing that isn't immediately obvious to the player. (as it so often is.)
Lies for sake of lies are stupid idea and I fully agree on that.
What you described "agenda" is one of things of my "real lies" idea. Agenda is what drive characters and PC is not center of their story. So if event ties npc and PC, NPC must think first what he want and player is the one who will judge this.
For example
On crossroads you meet other NPC. You ask for direction to certain ruins and they show it on your map. Upon reaching ruins you discover those ruins were already looted by someone so you decide to drop quest and tell quest maker that ruins were already explored.
That was from PC point of view.
Now from NPC point of view.
on crossroads you meet PC. He ask direction to ruin which you want to explore. Since you don't want competition you gave them direction to old ruins you already explored.
So player won't know of it untill he find proof in dialog with NPC or some investigation those fake quest ruins.
Player could also not speak to NPC and continue to search.
So things like those can happen:
Player will find and explore ruins.
Player won't find ruins.
Player will find fake ruins.
Player will find fake ruins and then original ruins.
Player will find ruins thanks to dialog with NPC (will find that NPC is lier)
Player will confront with NPC in original ruins.
And so on,
Little lie and player will have vastly different experience and what is more important player will try to think all time.
EDIT:
Also it would be sweet if they would include in this idea that your decisions are not realised after making decision but are in limbo state moving like clockwork in shadows to finally reveal outcome of decision after a long time like 5 or 10 hours. Also state of limbo should be known to player meaning. He should see that his decision is making things turn little by little and he should see those changes even before final change will arrive.
Example:
You killed some High Lord because Mage Coucil had proofs of his corruption.
After a while you notice that some prices in shops rose and people widely talk about it.
After few more days prices for some items are really high and this makes few citizents of city angry.
Guards at one of protest pacificated protesters and whole atmosphere of city is now rather cruel.
After a while from that you learn for some source or not (if PC didn't try to solve that problem) that those prices were directly connected with murdered lord. He used to bribe soldiers on borders of nation to buy cheaper goods from other nations and sell it in this city. Thanks to that people were used to low prices for decades.
If player would dig more about it he will find clues that those proofs were sent from one of the traders in town concurrent to this murdered High Lord.
So summary:
Proofs were legit
Corrupt man got killed. Justice served.
City got flack from it.
Merchant which sent those letters is now becoming rich.
Where was lie ? Whole things was a lie ! Player just didn't research motives of each party and probably didn't have a chance to. Resolution of this quest was after 14 hours of game and because of that you can't undo it and you must deal with consequences like riots in city and high price of items.
Pleyer who didn't research why prices are so high will assume that just how world looks now.
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Considering the titles they're looking to for inspiration, I don't think there's anything to "remove." Though I do hope they make the journal more navigable than is traditional. I'm talking about giving every quest a dedicated page and bookmark, instead of just lumping everything together.
Well thats true but games like DS3 and Fallout 3 had quest markers.
Yeah page for quest would be cool in my opinion to.
Also it would be absolutely amazing if they would include not only facts but also some lore stuff. Meaning something like in Witcher 2.
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Thoughts ?
I absolutely hate quest markers in games and moreso games that were designed around them. They take away idea of exploration and thinking and give you only point to progress story. Thanks to them you do not search for other option doing quest, you do not explore areas beside where leads quest mark.
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Also i think this idea needs to be tied with removing quest markers. Because quest markers simply ruing idea of exploration and thinking.
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Playing the first Witcher game atm, and that also has a "Who's telling the truth?" element to the game, where you accuse people of things, and they just say "Nope - wasn't me".
I have to say I was completely taken off guard, I'd been trained by years of RPG Villians just going "Aha - you've found me out! Only too late for you Mwhahaha".
It's certainly different, and I SHOULD enjoy it, but for some reason I kinda miss the black and white vengeance, of finding out who is guilty and then dealing to them. (Wipe hands - quest complete). The whole, "well wait - can I be sure it was this guy?", affects my OCD requirement to FINISH ALL QUEST.
Haha not only that. Even if you have solid proof they still say "No. that wasn't me" and here you are standing like idiot because you are used to thrustworthy NPC even villans and you simply doubt yourself.
Section of poisoned dude and detective aspect of that comes to mind. First time after my investigation i killed Rumsmeat dude.
When i was replaying game my investigation gone in different way and by the looks of it Rumsmeat was innocent. I killed him earlier because he was already mean sonofab... and i felt into trap and killed him. Whole investigation was just mind blowing **** when you go same way i did (meaning 1st ****up and 2nd good). What is more interesting is that I only discovered that because i replayed game if i wouldn't do that i would thought to this day that Rumsmeat was culprit.
Totally cool idea in my opinion would be to screw with players who want to be evil. After murdering whole village of villagers people who gave you quest tell you that you are their hero because villagers were sick to some virus and people in other villages asked this man to rid of them by any means. Not only you helped other villages saving them but also you will probably die in few weeks/months because you to are sick now.
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I think you can count on Obsidian to feature at least some of this type of content, they have done so many times already.
I know, they did but yet their implementation of this "feature" can be much much much much better. People should have their own agenda, they should sometimes lie like we do sometimes in bad way sometimes in a good way. Player should be involved and try to read NPC agenda. This also means that sometimes there is way of knowing true. Some character may lie you but player should judge if that lie was something major or not and if this change anything in player view of this character or faction.
Avellone is terrific writer as we know this already but he should improve in that aspect. Less narrator more player involvement.
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Shameless bump.
Also to add to this debate. It was mentioned earlier in RPS article but you people should try to play Pathologic if you get chance of buying it. It is crappy game, full of junk and sometimes very bad gameplay. BUT... atmosphere, world, story and lies are 1st grade gold. As i mentioned my best game ever is PST but if Pathologic wasn't pile of crap because of gameplay that game would be my 1st and PST second. Story-wise and dialog-wise PST is better but real lies in Pathologic simply elevate game and player involvement like no other game. You simply think all the time about what is happening and you try to think outside of the box. It is also like Last Expres meaning that events take place regardless of player involvement meaning if you do nothing game will still go on and will resolve itself probably in a bad way.
Other honorable mention:
The Witcher 1 (second is not that good in this area)
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Morte is not really a "good guy". None of the characters in Torment are. They can be your "good friends" (if treated well) but they aren't "good guys" by any stretch of imagination. They are drawn to you like moths to a candle, and they will steal, cheat, lie, and murder for your sake. They are prejudiced (Dak'kon), hypocritical (Fall-From-Grace), amoral (Annah), zealous to the point of genocide (Vhailor)
And that's one of the beauties of Torment.
Yes i know that. Good guy was used as your friend not as good guy directly. Sorry to not make it clear at first.
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I'm really not sure what you're saying (or how it is different than what has already been done).
In Torment, evidence against Morte slowly piles up. Depending on your choices, attributes, and in-game decisions, you can find out about his lies prior to the pillar of skulls (it's been a while, but I think you can resolve his torment as soon as you've rescued him from Lothar). On the other hand, you can choose to ignore the evidence, trust him, and not question his advice. The game is not railroading you in any way, since you have multiple ways of handling the situation.
If you are saying that you should be able to accuse each CNPC of lying at any point in the game simple because you, the player, are paranoid, this I will have to respectfully disagree with. Player knowledge (and paranoia) is not character knowledge (and paranoia). At best, I can see you picking a personality trait for your character at the beginning of the game (such as 'paranoid', 'naive', 'generous', 'lustful' and so on) that can affect the dialogues, including the ones with your companions.
Not at all, I don't say every NPC but simply player should't feel secure with people who he doesn't know. It's not like every NPC in game should screw you but player should think about his position, what quests could do and to not take every word from NPC as 100% true.
As of Morte. There is no freaking way to miss that Morte is actually good guy. Game reminds that to you in many places and there is no chance to miss that if you are homo sapiens. Difference to my idea is execution.
You should try The Void or Pathologic and see what i mean. But those aren't easy games in therm of gameplay. Pathologic is rather unplayable in therms of gameplay and The Void also has problems (but it is totaly playable!) but lie execution in both games are excelent. The Void is on steam.
If somebody lies to you in Pathologic you simply do not know of this unless you find it yourself and even if you know that someone has lied to you, you still to figure out why if that is even possible and if you want to confront it with lier you need some solid proofs.
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I'm just going to write down some names for people to ponder...
Kreia.
Nym.
Morte.
Ravel.
Trias.
Soego.
Brother Poquelin.
Do you really think Eternity won't feature similar characters?
I know that Obsidian is already using that idea but my concept is little different to that. It means that player should experience it first hand and not by developer creation,execution and resolve combo.
What it means ?
For example Morte.
In PST for most of the game Morte lies to you. But you as player do not take any part in it. You are not the one who discover lies because you investigated and thought " wait a minute ! He said he didn't known me before then why he said that or why this man told me about him and me ? " Game stops and start dialog with Morte and you are asking questions revealing that he is lying to you.
By developer you are directed like on roadway to uncover lineary his motive and his agenda same is with ignus dak'on and other members of your party. By developer you are instructed that Morte is lying but he is good in his own way, you didn't conclude that game tales you that.
Now consider game do not tell you straight that Morte is lying. It is all good but then you notice that something is wrong. In some cases people remeber you and a scull but they aren't sure. And with rising evidences you as player is starting to feel insecure about him being in party. Now when you go that way scull pillar is completely different from player perspective. There is Morte who tells you no chief "i'm good !" and there is skull pillar which remember you and scull and tells you that Morte was lying all along.
Now if player didn't resolve yet Morte lies problem (meaning he didn't notice or didn't talk with morte about it) this will be mayor decision for player and he simply won't know what is right and may give morte to scull pillar.
In vanilla it isn't any mayor decision. It is be a bad guy and give Morte and be a good guy and do not give him. It is constructed that way beacuse we know that Morte is good guy and whole Morte is lier is not working there.
I don't say Planescape is bad at it, it's actually rather good and it's my best game ever but those ideas can be improved.
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I think, written properly, it could add alot to the game. We all know Obsidian can tell a great story.
I can't think anyone in gaming industry who can do better this than Obsidian with their quality writing heritage.
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Excellent point, it really is underused in games and can have a great effect. It's amazing how there is a concrete norm where you find out 'The Truth' in the end, all you needed to do was piece together 2 opposing viewpoints, find a material piece of evidence against 1, then realise you have to bash the other side to get your optimal quest reward. (Of course, that's how it worked in a lot of police/mystery TV/films too....)
Arcanum's Siamese Twin skulls remains a landmark, and nobody still knows exactly what is the truth, and the player learns he has zero power to actually expose what seems to be a massive conspiracy. You never had a chance.
That is also big part of lie game. Sometimes you cannot simply know the truth.
Freespace2 ending comes close to that MAYOR SPOILERS:
Whole game you are fighting with aliens which with each day are just more powerfull and future of people is rather bleak.
But at the ending whole superbig fleet of aliens ship vanish in light of exploding star and they (aliens) probably didn't want to make war at all, they probably just wanted to use star and go back home. War is won, enemy run and you ask yourself for what were you fighting and if there was any enemy at all.
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Nice man, I surely hope they include this too
They are already doing it in their games but those lies are mostly passive. Meaning even if you discover lie it is not that much connected with you because whole lie is created, delivered and resolved by developer not by player.
Give player choice to say no or give chance of asking addition questions where outcome is not clear and if player know to some extend that this quest is fishy he can try to confront with lie and resolve problem different way.
****-ups should be part of gameplay. I wanted to be good but party A lied me and now party B hates me.
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Ok, that's probably something which isn't mentioned a lot but i think it's interesting idea.
Lies or should i say real lies.
Meaning i'm tired of NPC being trustworthy. In every single game be it RPG or any other if you meet NPC you will believe what he said it's true. In 99% cases, in last 1% it's clishe plan created by **** which are almost totally predictable by player who can do 2x2.
I played recently The Void. It's kinda artsy game but one thing that really was well done, was sence of unknown. Here you are in unknown world and from start you are directed by sisters what is good and what is bad. But later in the game different sisters and brothers see things differently and by point which you will talk with most of them you are confused. You are part of game without knowledge even what side of board is place you are standing, who is ally and who is enemy. Which part is telling true and which is not or both parties just doesn't understand fully the world where they exist ?
That struck me big. First time i was playing game i intensively thought about my standing in this world. I'm not alone with this. Here is some Rock, Paper, Shotgun article about this game and this subject.
and here is the quote:
When you encounter your first Predator a Sister guides you through battering it with colour until it dies, then she congratulates you. COOL! You think. And so you get into the habit of unthinkingly crushing Predators you find with colour. Before long a Brother gives you a reprimand, telling you flinging colour around is taboo. Then the colour itself starts whispering at you, telling you you’re wasting your soul. Then you pick up from a conversation about something else that there’s a relationship between colour spent in an area and the Predators that appear. Suddenly, you’re not sure if killing Predators is a mistake. Suddenly, you’re thinking.
Just as Pathologic was really a story that had the confidence to lie to the player, The Void is a game that has the fearlessness to mislead you, to obfuscate the rules of the world and make you rely on your own intuition and experience. In a year where mass-market games development is trying harder than ever to ensure even the most casual gamer is never confused or lost, I find Ice-Pick’s attitude here much appreciated.
Cool, isn't it ? And i as mature player i'm enjoying it. There was unmarked quest in FN:V with guy which his girl was trapped by geckos near Goodsprings campfire. This man lied to you, you killed geckos and he tried to kill you for stash near geckos. He lied and you bought it. It's a shame little of that was used later in game.
You should also consider that i'm not saying that every NPC should lie. No that would be unrealistic.
Most of NPC in game should be directed by selfishness mostly but without any zeal about it.
I really do love Obsidian writting and design of their worlds and i think that idea could be further enhanced.
So what are my ideas ?
For example:
You remember Jaheira from BG2 ? What if her parting with Harpers was planned and executed so Jaheira would be treated by player as full member of party so she could observe you and when time comes when Bhallspawn will side more to evil she would kill you ?
You start in academy, you train to fight another army who is trying to conquer your country. After a few battles with few of your friend died you found that your country is villain here.
You were asked to deliver some medicine to one doctor in next village. After delivery you gone to next town. Later in game like 20h your party is defending city from bandits. When first attack was repealed you notice that a lot of villagers die from drinking well water. After investigation you realize that that wasn't medicine but poison and doctor work with bandits and he is currently directing defence of village.
We know that already Obsidian does it for some extend like Morte in PST which already had "don't trust anyone" vibe (Avellone writing). But whole concept wasn't fully realized meaning yeah they lied but in a good way meaning no harm to player.
What i want to see is that concept fully matured. When people can screw you over and you want revenge not only because developer wants you to do so but simple revenge on NPC for what he did to player.
When i see some faction that looks like zeal paladins i still should care and try to look for hints if they don't want to screw me over and what are their view on world is. When i take quest i should consider what it means for people involved and if that will change my relationship with people who i already know.
Sorry for my Engrish. I'm not native and i hope what I wrote is clear.
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I don't think lesbian and gay cahracters should be mandated from the get go. Lesbian or gay characters should be included if the writers feel that the characters' sexual orientation is important to tell their story or show the themes that are central to their world building. Defining the sexual orientation of specific characters before doing anything else is a bad idea.
If anyone has a problem with a thread or post, use the report function. Posts that are deemed belligerent and inappropriate will be deleted.
This. Sexual orientantion is not something you should think before you start designing world. Away with that idea.
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The problem is that they need to start a project like this quick, before everyone else and their dog does the same thing, and I'm not sure Obsidian has the same hype surrounding them as Tim Schafer does.
Schafer's Kickstarter project got a lot of help from the fact that almost every big gaming news site reported on Notch saying he wants to finance Psychonauts 2 a few days before this. Also, Tim Schafer is somewhat of a household name, more than almost any other game developer right now. Obsidian has Avellone, but I am not sure they can compare on the hype-o-meter.
Another thing is that I think the general public are happy to donate to one of these projects. But if ten more pop up? I don't think the general public will spend 10x more money. Instead it will dilute the resources and make it more difficult to get proper funding. So.. do it quick if you're going to do it!
The problem is that they need to start a project like this quick, before everyone else and their dog does the same thing, and I'm not sure Obsidian has the same hype surrounding them as Tim Schafer does.
Schafer's Kickstarter project got a lot of help from the fact that almost every big gaming news site reported on Notch saying he wants to finance Psychonauts 2 a few days before this. Also, Tim Schafer is somewhat of a household name, more than almost any other game developer right now. Obsidian has Avellone, but I am not sure they can compare on the hype-o-meter.
Another thing is that I think the general public are happy to donate to one of these projects. But if ten more pop up? I don't think the general public will spend 10x more money. Instead it will dilute the resources and make it more difficult to get proper funding. So.. do it quick if you're going to do it!
I can't name any other developer who currently have RPG legends like Sawyer, Avalone or Cain. Not only them but also a strong RPG team who already are considered as spiritual succesor of Troika games which was spiritual succesor of Black Isle.
Also they proved that are great at making RPG. FNV is what F3 should be !
Also you must consider that even with double fine efort adventure games are niche games. Where RPGs are record breaking gengre like 20years alreadt with 100x more fans.
And now Fans of Black Isle, Troika, and Obsidian that is my friend thousands upon a thousand of devoted gamers.
I alone if this kickster goes will donate 100$.
10$ mln is my safe bet. Add now that they don't share it with anybody and that they double that when game will hit shelves. Crazy ?
Real "Lies"
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted · Edited by perkel
Witcher 1 is i think better in those aspects.
Ok now let's change now our standpoint and focus on PC.
Lying to NPCs that's a idea that is in my opinion interesting. This is hardly used in gaming !. Even wondered as I how many times NPC trusted you like you were Jesus or something ?
For example after a few days of doing nothing i will comeback to quest giver and will tell him that i cleared that house from spiders and i will receive money from him. It would also mean that NPC should be more reactive meaning that if i lie to him he should do something if he realize that I lied to him.
Who knows how viscous revenge can be ?