[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

My brother who plays a Rogue in WoW agrees that Shadow Step is in fact a teleport not just sneaking through the shadows. You go 'poof' and than 'poof' you're in a new spot.

 

 

That's because that's what actually happens, not what OP thinks happens.  Rogues also have an ability to vanish, teleport around a group of mobs, attack all of them instantly, and then re-appear back in front of their target. Warriors also have Heroic Leap, which is essentially identical to POE Barbarian Leap.  

 

I have played WOW off & on since launch, and last played a rogue & warrior and personally used all of these abilities about 3 mo. ago.

 

Anyway, I'm just going to re-iterate my previous post & leave this here: 

 

 

Ok yall win, everyones a mage. Yay. Delete the mage class plz

 

Yall have finally convinced me. The wizard is nothing special, he just does more of what everyone else does already. Got it. Heard. I will go play a barb

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

It does not mean that anyone and their brother is born innately knowing how to conjure that energy and manifest it into a spell.

Not everyone and their brother are innately able to harness soul power, all the classes imply levels of training that would take time to complete. If everyone and their brother trained as a Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue they could harness some aspects assuming they didn't get killed by Xaruips as low-level scrubs, and even then what they are able to harness is clearly different from what the Wizard is able to pull off.

If it was that easy, there would really be no such thing as a wizard. Although, the game is borderline at that point already.

Wizards clearly exist in PoE per the class description.

 

"The masters of academic magic, wizards are students of arcane traditions that stretch back beyond the boundaries of recorded history. Wizards are a highly organized group, often forming academies or guilds devoted to research and development in magical studies, and tend to favor environments where inquiry, experimentation, debate, and the dissemination of knowledge are encouraged. Many accomplished wizards eventually become known for their eccentricity, their egos, and their unquenchable interest in all things arcane and occult."

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard

 

Looks close enough to what my first Wizard pnp character did, so not only is there such a thing as Wizard but it's close enough to be similar to 3e Wizards.

 

Comparing the PoE Wizard to PoE Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues shows Wizards have significantly more supernatural abilities both in terms of breadth and magnitude, to the point you can completely bypass supernatural abilities and roll a martial character whose only magic would come from equipment. These classes clearly aren't Wizards even with magic as there is nothing any of them have that remotely resembles Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin, Wilting Wind, or Gaze of the Adragan.

 

 

The issue is that there is not one single class that is entirely mundane. EVERY SINGLE class uses magic. You have to go out of your way to make a character that does not use magic. That to me is the issue. Because this concept tells me that in this world everyone and their brother uses magic, and we go back to my original argument

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

Also, let's not forget these stellar rogue abilities that only further this possibility.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nightblade_(rogue_ability)

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Blades

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Symbols_of_Death

 

Meh, those are very minor effects. And nightblades are a thing. A thing I dont have an issue with. Multiclass is fine imo. But nightblades are mages and rogues. They train in both magic and subterfuge. Key word is train. Gotta learn those abilities, and dedicate to the training. 

 

P.s Those are hardly shadow magic abilites. Very minor

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

 

 

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

 

Except the part where you teleport, and that is a very stretched interpretation of stepping through the shadows. Especially in a world where Shadow Magic does exist.

 

And let's not forget, you are also the person who described the Barbarian's leap as "flying", and used that as an example of abilities that made a Wizard feel "less special".

 

 

Oh come on, leap is flying. Dude lights up like Johnny Flame and flies across the screen creating a supernova upon landing. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

Step through the shadows to appear behind your target and gain 70% increased movement speed for 2 sec.

 

 

Tell me, if you wanted to sneak up on someone in dim light, would you not "step through the shadows"? The animation in game is utterly mundane

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

The world of Game of Thrones is covered in spell casters, witches, warlocks and sorcerers. They are not called wizards, sometimes they are labeled as priests, or priestess, maisters or simply sorcerers, but they are none the less the same thing. Practitioners of magic.

 

The feats they are capable of through occult knowledge, secrets and study (Melisandra conjuring a demon spirit from her womb to murder Stanis Barathean, or bringing John Snow back from the dead, the warlocks of Qarth able to cast mirror image among other spells, the witch who conjured Kal Drogos spirit back from the dead to preserve his body) are evident. Normal men are not able to perform these acts of sorcery because they do not have the knowledge to do so. I know my Fire and Ice...

 

The faceless men did not use magic. They used literal faces of the faceless god. They were essentially magic items, and that was the limit to their mystical abilities. 

 

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

You don't know what you are talking about

 

 

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to discuss the rarity as well as the flavor of magic classes. I mentioned WoW because it's another RPG where even Rogues are capable of magic feats. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=36554/shadowstep

 

Sounds very similar to something else doesn't it?

https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Step

Almost... identical.

 

 Except in wow shadow step is an act of misdirection. Using tricks and smoke bombs. Not so in this game

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point. 

 

 

It is pretty hard to argue against your point because you cherry-pick the things you like as "great works that inspired the entire genre" and ignore everything else.

 

Constantly moving the goalposts or arguing totally different things while saying everyone else "just doesn't get it" also helps.

 

How does your view of magic as science in any way match great works like LoTR where magic is strictly the purview of gods and angels (who happen to look like Wizards) and there's nothing scientific about it?

 

But the part that really shows how self absorbed you are and how much you need everyone to agree with your very narrow definitions, is this:

You constantly talk about how magic should be like science and Wizards the noble nerds that are smart enough to study it. And yet, when lots of people point out that Wizards are exactly that in Eora, they are researchers, animancers, they have labs and try to study how soul energy works, you ignore this because you personally find the abilities of other classes too flashy or too magical.

 

Multiple people have pointed this out, but your criticism comes down to not liking a truly high-magic setting.

 

Eora is a high magic setting, magical energy (soul energy) is everywhere in some form, and anyone can tap into it to some extent as part of their lives and their jobs. Wizards are exactly what you complain they are not, they are scientists concerned with the minutiae of magical power, who study it and find practical "technological" applications. Like many other people have pointed out, if you equate Magic with physics, anyone can learn a little physics knowledge and apply it in their jobs, and they are the non-Wizard classes, but only Wizards are "PhD physicists" winning Nobel prizes. 

 

The fact that you constantly ignore this point makes it clear that mostly you're butthurt that anyone else gets to use cool magical effects (even though their usage is highly specialized and "intuitive" rather than deeply studied).

 

 

If magic is so widespread and easily attained, and any Joe Smoe can use it, what need is there for someone to research or specialize in it? It is everywhere and easily used by anyone. What is special about a wizard? How does a "wizard" even exist in a setting where magic is so easily obtained and used. Where essentially everyone is a "wizard" and the term simply means someone who plays with it as a hobby. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent. 

 

 

You asked me to respond to your point regarding settings with "everyone is a mage" and prove that I have any knowledge of rpg settings, so I listed the ones that shaped the genre and support the classical archetype of a wizard, and now you deflect. I mentioned about a dozen others beyond LOTR. All major works of fiction that shaped the genre

 

Clever boy

 

 

Congratulations, except that only some of these back up your persistent comparison of magic to science, which is what I was arguing against in the first place. 

 

But since you seem to have moved on, lets address those works you listed. By Fire and Ice, I assume you mean A Song of Ice and Fire. If not, please correct me because I couldn't find a Fire and Ice series from my quick google search. A Song of Ice and Fire has nothing even called wizards in it. Wizards don't have a monopoly on magic because they don't exist. A better comparison would be clerics and priests. The only thing close are the Warlocks in Qarth, who are heavily implied to simply use drugs as a means of simulating the appearance of magic. A Song of Ice and Fire also features a group of ASSASSINS called the faceless men who are capable of shapeshifting, so contract killers have magic too. Guess you never read that series, or you would remember that. Hell, you'd know that if you just watched the show. 

 

Tolkien's Wizards are, as you said, demigods. Gandalf is the same species as the Balrog. Wrap your head around that one. Does that fit the classic RPG definition of a Wizard? Answer: No. 

 

Once again, I am not arguing against your point about a monopoly on magic being common. I am arguing with your assertion that magic is only practiced like a science, and takes years of study to master. This is untrue in LotR. This is untrue in Ice and Fire, this is untrue (in some cases) in D&D. If you want other examples - this is untrue in World of Warcraft (you know, that bargain bin MMORPG), this is untrue in the Kingkiller Chronicles (somewhat) because there is an entire dimensional plane of magical creatures known as the fae). 

 

Elerond mentioned had a good list in an earlier post.

RPG systems

Glorantha (RPGs like RueQuest and HeroQuest use this setting), one of the oldest RPG settings

GURPS Technomancer  (setting for GURPS in which everybody has magic)

In Eberron, a D&D setting, low level magic so common place that virtually everybody has access to it

Earthdawn (both setting and rpg system)

 

Books

Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Darksword books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

The Xanth series by Piers Anthony

The King's Peace by Jo Walton

A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab (there is three parrarel universes from which in two everybody has magic)

The Crest of Zabutur series by N Lott

 

You bounce between these two points. Wizards as defined by rarity, or Wizards as defined by the narrow domain of intelligence-based casters. Each argument has entirely different reasons for why it's wrong, so I'm not going to argue both with you. Hell, it's impossible to argue with you at all because you ignore half of the posts directed to you in this thread. I understand that there is a lot to respond to, but don't bring up points that people have brought into question without first addressing the countless issues with them that people have already pointed out. 

 

It doesn't matter. You are dancing around and around in circles. 

 

 

The world of Game of Thrones is covered in spell casters, witches, warlocks and sorcerers. They are not called wizards, sometimes they are labeled as priests, or priestess, maisters or simply sorcerers, but they are none the less the same thing. Practitioners of magic.

 

The feats they are capable of through occult knowledge, secrets and study (Melisandra conjuring a demon spirit from her womb to murder Stanis Barathean, or bringing John Snow back from the dead, the warlocks of Qarth able to cast mirror image among other spells, the witch who conjured Kal Drogos spirit back from the dead to preserve his body) are evident. Normal men are not able to perform these acts of sorcery because they do not have the knowledge to do so. I know my Fire and Ice...

 

The faceless men did not use magic. They used literal faces of the faceless god. They were essentially magic items, and that was the limit to their mystical abilities. 

 

World of Warcraft is not like that? They had entire organizations dedicated to the study of magic..... Have you not heard of Dalaran? Have you even played WoW? 

 

You don't know what you are talking about

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

 

Your comment illustrates my point perfectly. The sole reason this paradigm exists, is because of players like yourself who can't grasp the concept that, yes, a wizard who can conjure fireballs and call storms from the sky is going to be more powerful than your fighter in heavy armor.

 

And over the years, more and more people like yourself have gathered and created such an issue, that these writers and developers are having to fabricate ways to make fighters and mundane classes equal to their magical counterparts. It simply doesn't work. 

 

Rather then grasp the concept of asymmetry, we live in a world that is now dominated by the voice of a community who demands everything to be equal, and sucks the fun out of every interesting concept conceived. 

 

Despite the natural checks and balances that were already in place that level the playing field. Yes, wizards are immensely powerful. They are also immensely vulnerable. They have long cast times, reagent requirements, poor martial abilities, etc. 

 

Giving super powers to fighters, or making everyone a wizard was not required... and more than that, it destroys the whole concept of a wizard....

 

 

Your posts are obnoxious and exhausting with all the persecution complex you constantly spew about how "PC culture is ruining wizards because the new generation can't handle asymmetry".

 

Your conspiracy theories and personal preferences about how "magic should be" are just opinion, not fact.

 

 

Obnoxious, maybe. However, accurate, and as I have listed several of the great works that have inspired the entire genre and support my idea of magic, it is pretty hard to argue against my point. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

 

 Would you kindly argue a consistent point? Is that so hard? Because last I checked, I was arguing against your comparison of magic to science, because you like to bring up your medical degree so much. Tolkien's wizards are not scientists, as you said, they are demigods. These are entirely different points. Please stay consistent. 

 

 

You asked me to respond to your point regarding settings where "everyone is a mage" and prove that I have any knowledge of rpg settings, so I listed the ones that shaped the genre and support the classical archetype of a wizard, and now you deflect. I mentioned about a dozen others beyond LOTR. All major works of fiction that shaped the genre

 

Science is the closest thing we can compare to magic of our real world. Don't pretend as if I am the only one who has ever made this analogy, as it has been documented thousands of times over the centuries that "one mans magic is another mans science". You are just arguing to argue. You get the resemblance. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

This seems like a weird hill to plant a flag on and declare an edict from.

 

One of the major design concerns with PoE2 was to make sure that combat was easier to follow, hence the reduction in max party members at one time and so on. I suspect the overall flashiness is a side consideration of that as well. I doubt the developers even thought someone who only played the game for a few hours and supposedly dropped it was going to go on the forums and spawn a 10 page thread over lore justifications for attack animations.

 

The game universe emphasizes soul power quite a lot too. People earlier in the thread mentioned that some enemies use some of the same abilities that the player's characters have access to, but I don't remember any that use anything higher than Tier 5 skills (aside from a Priest or two using Storm of Holy Fire in the first game). There's also something else to consider, a minor spoiler for the first game for the discussion of 'souls power all magic': a certain character wanted to kill the Watcher and use their soul to create true time magic as well, regardless of what class the Watcher actually was.

 

I think people are getting this soul magic thing a bit wrong. The soul is just the fuel for magic. Like mana in other games. They are just saying it comes from souls, rather than Mundus, or the Weave, or winds of magic, or whatever.

 

It does not mean that anyone and their brother is born innately knowing how to conjure that energy and manifest it into a spell. If it was that easy, there would really be no such thing as a wizard. Although, the game is borderline at that point already.

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

Really? Anyone can do science. Please put together the tech for me to build a cell phone. I want you to explain to me the exact process of how a cellular telephone works and I want you to build one for me. Right down to the touch screen, without using google. Hell, go ahead and use google. Wont make a difference. You dont just "use" science. You need to understand the very complicated concepts that underly it. And unless I missed something and you have a phd in a scientific field, I doubt you qualify.

Explain to me microbal culturing and gram stains, in conjunction with targeted antibiotic therapy. Sure, you can copy paste from google, but you get my point. Science is not simply done. You must learn it. It takes years of study. The same goes with magic in most lore.

We get it. You're a medicine man. But what you are responding to is not even relevant to the overall point of the person's post. It's nitpicking, and completely distracting from the conversation. Also, while I certainly never cured cancer in my chemistry classes or used "microbal culturing and gram stains", I did do simple distillations and measurements and even synthesis of compounds. Hell, people practice basic chemical science when they bake food and get tangible results from that.

 

And there you go again with "magic in most lore" when I and several other users have given you examples of incredibly popular and influential lore where this is not the case. Please address those before repeating your same point again and again and again, or stop making it because it's wrong and you have yet to prove otherwise. In fact, you have yet to prove you are familiar with any fantasy literature at all beyond hearsay.

 

 

The only groups of stories I have heard of that follow this "everyone is a mage" narrative are nearly unheard of bargain bin folk tales. And looking them up, they all have very unique settings that are very different than the classical fantasy rpg setting which this game subscribes to.

 

Pieces of work like Tolkien's, where Wizards and magic are almost unheard of, and wizards are actually demi-gods, or great stories like The Summoner series, Fire and Ice, Neverwinter, Baulders Gate, Eragon, TES (which despite their shift to this new paradigm as of late, still must hold true to their lore which dates back to the Arena tabletop where wizards monopolized magic and it was defined by innate ability), Warhammer, every Disney movie you have ever heard of. Heck, even Harry Potter. The classic, popular image of magic in a fantasy setting is monopolized by dedicated practitioners of magic. It was not freely practiced by everyone like the culinary arts.

 

So you sir, can bite me....

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

Dragon Age is actually a very good example of how not to handle that. They created a world where magic is scary and unknown and muggles have to create a whole force of warriors who get hooked on magic heroin to counter mages... but then it slaps a generic RPG gameplay on it, with three classes, three races and a MMO-lite combat system. So either warriors and rogues are fifth wheels in their own party, like in Origins, or they have to pull off superhuman stunts, like in DA2 and DA:I, which the writing and world-building pretend really hard they cannot do.

 

But I see this thread has devolved into whinging about how "this generation" is the absolute worst for not abiding by the OP's personal taste, so there's very little to be said that will be remotely productive.

 

Your comment illustrates my point perfectly. The sole reason this paradigm exists, is because of players like yourself who can't grasp the concept that, yes, a wizard who can conjure fireballs and call storms from the sky is going to be more powerful than your fighter in heavy armor.

 

And over the years, more and more people like yourself have gathered and created such an issue, that these writers and developers are having to fabricate ways to make fighters and mundane classes equal to their magical counterparts. It simply doesn't work. 

 

Rather then grasp the concept of asymmetry, we live in a world that is now dominated by the voice of a community who demands everything to be equal, and sucks the fun out of every interesting concept conceived. 

 

Despite the natural checks and balances that were already in place that level the playing field. Yes, wizards are immensely powerful. They are also immensely vulnerable. They have long cast times, reagent requirements, poor martial abilities, etc. 

 

Giving super powers to fighters, or making everyone a wizard was not required... and more than that, it destroys the whole concept of a wizard....

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

I'm pretty sure Brandon Sanderson had more influence in that regard, if you're talking about the kind of fantasy I think you are talking about.

That guy should be sent to Solowki for the rest of his life.

if you're talking about the kind of fantasy I think you are talking about.

Yes, I do. Dont get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with explaining how magic works in your setting, but I have a very great problem with the expectations that exist nowadays regarding that topic. Namely the common comparison to science and the demand that it should be explainable in the same way. Just look at this stupid topic here. "That soul stuff does not make sense" "That soul stuff is lazy". No. It's just their way of dealing with magic. (And it's quite scientific, too.) If magic was a metaphor for science, we could as well use science, couldn't we?

 

Just look at the Discworld books: At first glance magic seems to be the same thing as in D&D: Scientific fireworks. You have the academic mages, you have witches who use earth magic and all that stuff. But it isn't. Magic in that setting means potential, creativity, ideas. A mage can be a mage for his whole life and never cast a spell once, because he lacks what is necessary to do it: potential. Every idea in the discworld can take physical form, because it is time for it or simple because enough people belive in it. In my opinion that's how you deal with magic. I mean, of course the reader gets what magic is about on the Discworld, but most readers don't get it consciously. It just makes sense and you know that while you read it.

Essentially so it isn't being used as a Deus Ex Machina.

What's wrong with that, if done right? The entire movie "The Dragonslayer" was built around a deus ex machina.

Really? Anyone can do science. Please put together the tech for me to build a cell phone. I want you to explain to me the exact process of how a cellular telephone works and I want you to build one for me. Right down to the touch screen, without using google. Hell, go ahead and use google. Wont make a difference. You dont just "use" science. You need to understand the very complicated concepts that underly it. And unless I missed something and you have a phd in a scientific field, I doubt you qualify.

 

Explain to me microbal culturing and gram stains, in conjunction with targeted antibiotic therapy. Sure, you can copy paste from google, but you get my point. Science is not simply done. You must learn it. It takes years of study. The same goes with magic in most lore.

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

 

 

Actually, it's called Storm Herald, babe. Once again, are you even familiar with what you are talking about, or are you going entirely off of hearsay?

 

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

 

 

Wizards and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

 

 

Incorrect. Sorcerers get their power from birth. Warlocks get their power from pacts with certain entities.

 

 Sorry that was a mistype. I meant sorcerers and warlocks get their power from birth. But you are right warlocks get them from pacts. Which is fine, that makes sense. What doesnt make sense is fighters and barbarians with no magical affinity, or training casting spells. Kinda defeats the purpose of studying for ages and selling your soul for power when john smith barbarian can pull spells out of his ass

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really

 And why do you think TES with every release since Morrowind is going down the "everyone is equal route"? Could it be that this generation of "I want everything now and I want everything he has" has become endemic? And they are trying to subscribe to the view of the largest majority? Starting to see my point about this generation?

 

Morrowind required significant investment to use magic. It almost punished you until late game. Without investing from the start, magic was almost unusable outside enchanted weapons and armor. Then you get Skyrim where anyone can be anything at any time, which entirely broke every piece of lore ever written... they wrote it off as a gameplay mechanic. 

 

As for the classless game, they intend to make ti so you choose your own class by choosing what skills to train. But by training in magic, you essentially move down the wizard route. They just dont force u to choose that from the beginning. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

 

 

sorcerers and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

Still waiting to hear all these fantasy stories where "everyone has magic" is so common.

 

In almost every story, wizards are revered, feared, powerful practitioners of occult arcane knowledge. That either takes years of study, is hidden and secretive knowledge, or you must be born with magic to use. I can't think of very many that don't fall into that category because there would not be much sense in a "wizard" archetype existing if everyone knew magic, would there?

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

I put a lot of thought into "how can I make the character I want to play & have it feel awesome while considering the RP implications?"

 

For this reason, I will probably never have a paladin MC. The subclass options (which are mandatory) limit your RP choices vs. your gameplay power. There's several subclasses that I like the abilities for, but not the favored dispositions that go with them.

 

I try to think about what my Barbarian would do in the situations that I come across.

 

But no, I don't have long contemplation sessions about where my powers come from, or whether I am too similar to a wizard and thus should start wearing robes and only cast my Fireball weapon toss spell (it's not even that good, too expensive.)

Ya well, a person that plays a wizard generally thinks about that kinda thing. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

 

 

I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

 

 

Ya, you guys are not getting what I am saying. I get they are not exactly the same and the wizard has a wider selection. I get it... I get it.... I get it.... But the fact that BARBARIANS ROGUES, FIGHTERS and every other class in the game has access to powerful magic, that in most games are the realm of sorcerers and mages, ruins the whole concept of what a wizard is. It ruins the feel of being a powerful practitioner of magic, when many of your abilities are mimicked by every other class.

 

There is nothing special lore wise about a wizard, that doesn't really monopolize magic. The one thing that makes them unique, every other class has. You guys keep stating game play differences, I am talking about the lore. 

 

 

You're the one not getting it.  You have been shown, time and again, where you're just wrong - that this kind of "everyone has magic" is very common in fantasy media and is even present in some of the oldest of fantasy media.

 

Just because YOU do not like doesn't mean that everyone must dislike it, and then when you go off and insult "the new generation" as though you're some wise old sea dragon that just "knows better"... jesus ****ing christ, dude.

 

Just stop posting.  You done goofed, so just let it go.

 

This everyone has magic concept is common? Name the games, movies etc please... I can't think of a single one actually..... Ok, I lie divinity OS. Another product of the PC culture that everyone must be equal or else. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities.

So we've established that the setting makes logical sense internally, classes are relatively balanced for gameplay purposes, and are thematically very different. But you don't like how it all comes together? We come back to my point from a few posts ago: you don't like the POE setting. That's OK. There are other games out there that you might like better.

 

Why not just admit the POE setting is not to your tastes & move on? For most of this thread you have acted like those of us who disagree with you are intellectually inferior beings. Can't people just have different tastes?

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... 

 

The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

 

 

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright.

 

Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. 

Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). 

Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect).

Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire)

Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game)

 

Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII

Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory)

Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves)

Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game)

Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target)

 

And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

 

 

Ya, you guys are not getting what I am saying. I get they are not exactly the same and the wizard has a wider selection. I get it... I get it.... I get it.... But the fact that BARBARIANS ROGUES, FIGHTERS and every other class in the game has access to powerful magic, that in most games are the realm of sorcerers and mages, ruins the whole concept of what a wizard is. It ruins the feel of being a powerful practitioner of magic, when many of your abilities are mimicked by every other class.

 

There is nothing special lore wise about a wizard, that doesn't really monopolize magic. The one thing that makes them unique, every other class has. You guys keep stating game play differences, I am talking about the lore. 

[Why does every class have to have magic?]

 

And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book.

 

Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes."

 

Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over"

 

Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!"

 

Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast"

 

The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game.

No really, it doesn't. Wizards are one of the most OP classes in both games because of their varied & powerful toolkits.

 

A small list of really good Wizard abilities:

Chill Fog

Any "Missles" spell

Most of their defensive buffs

Arcane Dampener (removes ALL positive effects)

Chain Lightning

Gaze of the Adrian

 

Sure all of these have a cast time, but the results for any of these are better than most of comparable martial classes abilities. Now if you wanted to compare Priests or Ciphers you'd have a better case. But Druids, Chanters & Wizards are all very solid classes that I would qualify as casters.

 

 

I am not referring to simple gameplay mechanics and balance. I am referring to lore concepts! I could give a **** all about whether the wizard is actually weaker then other classes, but lore wise it makes no sense to be a wizard when you have Conan over here lighting his axe ablaze and throwing it for a massive explosion like Ares from God of War, and Loki over here insta-teleporting all over the map like the God of mischief himself.

 

It ruins the appeal, why have a wizard when pretty much everyone in the game is a wizard/god with comparable abilities.