[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

Would hunter or brute be better for dual pistols?

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

Just updating a bit here...

 

I found monk/ranger to be not so good I really lacked passive penetration until lvl 11 and since I shot so quickly mainly AA buffs seemed stronger

 

I'm currently doing a helwalker/devoted now and have much better results at lower levels. The bonus pen from devoted is a God send, I have really great accuarcy through devoted and dance of death. I am missing the 20% reload from ranger though and eventually driving flight.

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

How would a Helwalker/trickster do with dual mortars? Would a single class do better?

Id go streetfighter so the blunderbuss give you 50% recovery and extra damage.

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

Blunderbuss aren't an option for this guy sadly!

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

 

Heavy armor and being slow isn't the best now. If you're to slow on a caster you'll move every other round and be much worse off btw.

 

Everyone keeps saying rounders combat, that would just be exactly how the normal game mode is, it's not a real inventive idea and seems counter productive to having a round based system.

 

They need to increse damage either through more actions a round or a flat % increase to allow initiative to be stronger and make combat quicker.

Casters aren't the only class. The stats are supposed to be good for everyone, that's core to the design philosophy of the game. Besides them, not going first has very minimal disadvantages right now. Especially because the only way to deny someone a turn is by casting, interrupting a cast, or being one of the few non-caster classes that has paralysis or the like.

 

Inventiveness for its own sake doesn't make for a fun combat system. It is counterproductive to a round system, but rounds are not the only way to have a turn-based system.

 

More actions per turn would break the game faster than more turns in general. More attacks could work, but that still doesn't fix the problem with all the other things action speed affected. I don't know how a percentage increase would make initiative better if anyone who doesn't have to cast doesn't care about it.

 

I get that you like rounds, but the game can't turn into 5e-lite. There's just too much built into the game that doesn't work that way, and some things that have to not work that way. If they keep rounds, and if they include multiple actions per turn, so be it, but the basis of those decisions should prioritize balance, not an adherence to a newly introduced mechanic that breaks another one and, more importantly, makes entire builds obsolete.

Well you can look at it two ways, having stuff that isn't good in RTWP be good in turn based is pretty awesome. Being able to use weapon modals you'd normally never use is awesome! An increase in damage makes going first more important because you or the enemies die faster. If you play fps games getting the drop one someone is so strong because ttk is low.

 

It is okay to have different balance between game modes, not having action speed lord over eveything can be a good thing. As I said you still need it for casters or you'll lose turns which makes your casters much worse. Again it's okay to have balance be different it's going to happen in a different mode. Right now the mode suffers from being sluggish and slow imo. I think they need to figure out how long they want an average encounter to be (total rounds) and balance accordingly. You can have some fights take a while in TMWP but if you extend that over rounds it can be a bit much.

 

I think eveyone can agree the fights are a bit to long in this mode and it can get rather annoying.

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

How powerful is driving flight? Playing around with ranger I think it would be the main selling point for a multiclass, can it provide on hit effects like for the frostseeker?

 

Are the monk nerfs to ranged pretty crazy?

 

I was running my dual pistol idea with a helwalker using dance of death waiting for the lightning lash, but with dance it would seem accuarcy is less of an issue but penetration maybe more so. I was thinking of switching to devoted for the bonus pen but I'm not entirely sure it'd be worth it either.

 

So I guess I need to figure out how strong driving flight is, and if pen will be an issue and if so what are my ways around it. I guess the bonus of not devoted and sticking to my cowboy theme I can use an arequebus for higher armored targets?

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

It's just i've already done the dual mortar approach so i just want something else.

 

Yeah I'm thinking about dual wielding Scordeo's /  Thundercrack right now going ranger / devoted and figure i can carry a bow and deal with the 10 accuracy malus when i run into pierce immune mobs

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

hmm yeah not exactly what i'm going for, maybe ill just do a redhand build or something and drop my crit idea, although those 2 bow's definitely have some appeal to themselves.

 

I just wanna play my inner cowboy,

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

Hmm so frostseeker is king of AoE still?

 

What would you rank after that in terms of AoE? (Excluding blunderbi).

 

I was king of wanting to make a dual wield pistol build using the modal with ranger to boost my accuarcy (and I honestly love ranger for some reason) but it doesn't look like I'd output decent AoE which I'd like to. I tend to always make 1 Mercenary who enhances my MC so I was going to make a paladin/chanter for the additional lashes /crit / reload speed.

 

But I figure If I can shoot fast enough I could potentially not worry about AoE to much, I essentially want to machine gun out shots.

 

St Amokus looked interesting figure I could go sharpshooter / devoted with it.

 

Essence interruptor looked really interesting what exactly does it summon?

 

Essentially I'm looking for a high damage turret build that just shreds out high damage / weird procs

[initiative and turn base]

Mule kick only last 1 round,so if you go after everyone it will be useless. At pl 10 it effect the current round and the next round, or enough int.

 

At least that's what I've seen

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

Heavy armor and being slow isn't the best now. If you're to slow on a caster you'll move every other round and be much worse off btw.

 

Everyone keeps saying rounders combat, that would just be exactly how the normal game mode is, it's not a real inventive idea and seems counter productive to having a round based system.

 

They need to increse damage either through more actions a round or a flat % increase to allow initiative to be stronger and make combat quicker.

[Best weapons for a crit based build melee/ranged build. Or just a ranged build.]

I'm a sucker for crits and cool crit effects even if they aren't the most reliable things to build around. What weapons should I look for? I'm looking for a kind of weird yet effective build.

P

I saw frostseeker but I've used it in a build before

 

I was looking at a dual wield pistol build but it seems to be lacking aoe.

 

I've done dual woeld hand mortars.

 

Just any idea would be appreciated!

[Another thread to advocate for a change in how rounds are handled]

A dynamic system would of been easier imo because PoE already is a dynamic turn based system so they could of introduced an enhanced turn based mode with very minimal changes. They could of just had the free actions (buffs) change action speed to an integer which they did, and not include rounds. The fact they included 6 second rounds shows me an intent not to do an enhanced pause mode.

 

Also it's hard to say something is easy or hard to add to the game since we aren't the ones dealing with the code so always remember that!

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

Going first is more important if you are using CC. Being able to remove a turn from your enemies is pretty powerful.

 

You can also get a surprise round attacking from stealth (from what I've experienced)

 

Armor: heavy armors are better for pure damage dealers it seems, unless you are trying to do a stun etc etc etc they're still not good for casters but for a pure damage dealer relying on weapon attacks they're fine. I feel reducing walk speed could have the unintended consequence of making heavy armor really good for ranged DPS and terrible for melee.

 

Light weapons: definitely need some love either through a damage increase or getting an extra attack per round.

 

Modals: I find myself using modals more frequently, I have a sharpshooter in heavy armor wielding an arequebus and it's pretty great. They probably need to evaluate some of the modals though.

 

Engagements: need to be automatic imo. Being able to run past enemies and vice versa is a bit to silly without eating oppurtunity attacks.

 

Damage: Needs to be increased for turn based imo. I have a feeling tougher enemies will become sponges and take a good while to defeat.

 

Breakpoints:for spells /CC there are some that need to be checked I feel some things are just not very good until you have enough int or PL to add an additional round, and then they can be a bit crazy.

 

Chanters: maybe find the average amount of rounds per combat and reduce invocation cost by one as a start. Could possibly have problems with skald and troubador though

 

Ciphers: have a pretty poor action economy imo since they need to AA and cast. Them and chanter probably need to be looked at the most imo.

[Spells cost two standard actions]

What spells? I know for me chill fog resolves it's cast in a single round amd I'm able to cast ot amd resolve it in the next round etc.

 

Is it a single spell that's the problem? Is it a tier of spells?

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

My criticism of moving to dynamic rounds is that it's already available to us. Having a game with different balance that plays like a ttrpg is totally more awesome then "enhanced pause mode" there is really no reason to play it at that point.

 

Action pause = dynamic turns they wouldn't of needed to re balance the system and could of just added a new pause option I'm the menu not an entire new mode. Heck you can pause combat every 2 seconds I'd you feel like it.

 

 

And going to the martial classes point...

 

Yeah I kind of forgot about them in general. I feel like in the talent trees for improved two handed weapons and stuff they could make it so you can get another action with them. Then the classes that have further improvements they could add additional attacks maybe. Right now the action economy is a bit busted which is causing all the problems and I feel like people with no ttrpg don't understand that you can have wizards casting fireballs and have fighters smacking things and make it overall relatively balanced between them on the same turn. If the damage remains on the lower side initiative won't be great and a big problemis the communities mind set of wanting crazy action speed.

 

CRPGS are born from TTRPGS and the reason why action speed is so incredibly powerful in PoE is because you change the action economy which is absolutely incredibly powerful. Anyone who's played 5e can tell you how action surge is so powerful.

 

I think maybe if they added a "bonus action" where you get 1 a turn could help too. You could make the bonus action an extra attack, or you could look at spells like barbarian roar, or low cast time cipher abilities and allow them to be used in addition to some attacks. Keeping some abilities as a full action is definitely warranted since allowing a fireball cast with anything else would be a bit bonkers.

 

They may even need to buff weapon damage a bit but I'm not sure. What they could do if they look into extra attacks in a way would be to give light weapons the property of an extra attack, and heavy weapons lose an attack, they have some options here too.

 

But if you're able to do more in a single turn, initiative is going to be universally stronger and still worthwhile to go for on more people. Anyone who cast already want it at a decent level sp they don't lose a turn, also anyone who wants to give out CC or buffs wants it to go earlier I'm the round too because you lose a round of the debuff if you're the last person to attack.

 

Anyone who had played dnd can tell you if you're entire party attacks first in most situations you're going to have a much easier fight since you can probably remove a threat or two and get out some important abitilies. Right now martial builds outside of alpha strike builds are struggling because the action economy isnt fully built up. If you've tried an ancient druid there sporeman summon is really good in turn based because you are modifying the action economy, same with the ranger imo.

 

It's going to require a different mind set then the base game and most of the comments I read don't understand that or realize this is an actual beta. They revamped a large part of the system to move the game in this direction, I'd they didn't want it to function this way and function as real time with enhanced pause they could of left everything exactly the same. This is clearly trying to make a ttrpg style system so the whole dynamic turn is really a horrible idea because we 100% have that and they didn't need to change stuff to free actions etc in order to do that.

 

Another thing ill say going to light weapons is that in DND they tend to be more versatile so the lesser damage is okay, but in PoE the versatility of being able to climb isn't a thing so they'll need a way to bridge the gap in damage

[Spells cost two standard actions]

There may be some spells that are bugged, but in my experience if your initiative is low enough you can cast a spell within 1 turn, otherwise with heavy armor and dumped dex it take 2 turns

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

I posted this on the steam forums but want to give my feedback here as well:

 

One action per round works in a DnD like system, however this isn’t DnD. A lot of things are based off speed, and initiative isn’t enough to make up for it. What would help the system a lot is to remove rounds, and just have an inactive tracker, and you get an action whenever your initiative comes up. This means faster characters may get extra actions.

 

Simple Example. You have an initiative of 3 and a monster has one of 7.

Round Starts at 0

Initiative 3: You attack

Initiative 6: You attack

Initiative 7: Monster Attacks

Initiative 9: You attack

 

Of course the system is more complex, your weapon, armor, spells cast will raise initiative and cause you to act later but this is the basic idea. This will make DEX viable again for most classes, make a lot of CC worthwhile, and fix faster weapons and lighter armors.

Yeah I talked to someone about this, the problem is then you're just playing the base game, there is no real difference you may as well just turn on all the pause options.

 

They should look into adding addition auto attacks for martial classes (maybe give light weapons an additional attack) and look at increasing weapon damage as a whole.

 

Doing "dynamic" initiative is just the base game we already have

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

Sorry, I still fail to see the advantages of Turn compared to Dynamic Turn 

But again that's my point of view. 

 

Of course, "feeling different" from the current RTwP is an advantage.

Different ways of playing cannot be bad.

Provided it works and it is balanced, of course. I fear it would be plagued by "rounding" and "breakpoints" but well, we'll see. It might be awesome after the beta.

 

We already have Dynamic Turn, that's what a CRPG is.  We already have access to pause options that create this experience.

 

But regardless i am excited to see the changes they make!

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

 

 

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

So you'd essentially just want to play the base game, with more pausing?  Because that's what "dynamic turn" is and how CRPGS came from ttrpgs.

 

 

 

Mmm basically yes.

 

The selling point of TB for me is that gameplay requires 0 reflex (not even to hit the spacebar at the right moment). You can play quitely while drinking your coffee. Auto-pausing in RTwP can mimic it, but is not as suitable.

You make decision based on the exact status at a given moment. That's nice because strategy becomes easier to apply.

 

Dynamic Turn or Action(s) per Turn won't change this. So both would be OK if development started from scratch.

 

 

But we already have a pretty balanced action system where everything is balanced around action times "seconds".

It surely requires a couple of adaptations for Dynamic Turns.

But I think it would require much more adaptations for Action(s) per Turn (such as the ones you suggest, which are far from being fully specified).

 

Why would we want a totally different ruleset in the first place ?

Why would it be good that Obsidian spend time, effort and money for it ?

I don't want another game. I want PoE2 with TB.

But erh, that's just me.

 

Action(s) per Turn would also kill any possibility to have PoE3 compatible with both TB and RTwP because it would be too divergent.

It's totally OK if Obsidian goes for mainly TB for PoE3 (business is business), but leaving RTwP apart would reduce their market, cut them from the original reasons why this serie does exist and cut them for a relevant part of their fanbase. The later point might be a wrong decision because we are speaking about a game crowfunded thanks to RTwP nostalgia.

 

Why would we want a totally different ruleset in the first place ? - I'm guessing the game director is a huge fan of TTRPGS, and want's to bring that feeling over,  that was why games like Buldars gate existed was to bring the DND experience to a video game!

 

Why would it be good that Obsidian spend time, effort and money for it ?  They already have?  Watching the video it says 2 parts of the development team were working on it, probably as something they wanted to do!

 

I don't want another game. I want PoE2 with TB. -  That's totally fine but this option already partially exist for you.  go to your options and check all of times to pauses, you'll get the experience you're looking for, you can even set it down to pause every couple of seconds!

 

 

you also have to realize CRPGS like Neverwinter and Buldars Gate are based entirely off of dnd 3.5, they were a video game version of the system.  They have enough pause options enabled to give you the kind of relaxing experience in real time while not worrying about all this stuff, i think that's what you want which is 100% okay.  But this mode is something really different and i feel like the design behind it is again to bringt that DND feel to it and i think they've done a hell of a job.  I mean i think asking just for more pause options seems a bit more in line what you're looking for compared to this mode.

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

Some people lobby for a "minor action" to limit free ability use and such. If such thing was added a reload might be a neat "minor action" something not necessary for bows... possibly for crosbows as well? You can reload crossbow faster than old timey gun, right? 

yeah something like that would definitely help, but you'd need an additional attack, if they had auto attacks as a "minor action" i guess you could balance it a bit with 2 bow shots to a gun shot with some #'s tweaking in there.

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

The number of rounding tweaks required for 1 action per Turn is just absurd. I completely fail to see how dynamic turn could possibly have more breakpoints.

So you'd essentially just want to play the base game, with more pausing?  Because that's what "dynamic turn" is and how CRPGS came from ttrpgs.

 

One action per turn is absurd,  They need to add extra attack to weapon (martial) classes that allow them to get an extra auto attack round or two, full casters are fine aside from a few spells being to bad or to good.  Half casters like ciphers are in a rough spot they should have a talent that allows two attacks or an attack + a cast.  They could also just increase certain weapons damage to make a single attack option be okay, but classes like cipher will still be a bit weak from that.

 

so yeah, "dynamic initiative" is just what a CRPG is, AP could work if the game was designed from the ground up that way they'll have a total host of stuff they need to re-evaluate and than AP more than likely becomes a god stat with break points.

 

edit: i will add Cipher probably needs some different rules to play with just because of it is designed,  spamming lower level spells isn't a real option for them in turn based and spell casters as a whole get a much greater benefit from higher level spells in this set up, blood mage in particular is REALLY strong because of this.

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

The whole "1 action per Turn" concept should be thrown in a basket and drawn in Ondra's Mortar.

 

Either Action Points or Dynamic Turn (variable action time without round concept) could work, but they would need an enormous effort (=money) to adapt the RTwP rulseset to a "1 action per Turn" system.

Action points would be terrible for this game.

 

1 action per turn is completely fine, dynamic turn would be a bad choice too imo, you'd have so many breakpoints and what not it'd have a host of awful problems.

 

They need to modify some abilities still, for damage duration or what not.  I've said in other places giving Martial classes the ability to multi attack in a turn and possibly increasing weapon damages would fix a lot of the issues people have with the current turn based environment

[Guns should have 1-2 turn reload times]

I think other weapons just need access to more attacks, this would be a terrible change

[The turn order is COMPLETELY broken. Needs total overhaul]

That's the thing dex DOESN'T have to be the strongest stat for everything. If it made you go first and gain extra attacks it becomes the #1 stat for everyone who wants to so anything by a long shot.

 

I would do expect spells to have a different ap cost, but now when do they resolve (cast) how much will they cost? You'd be able to get a few attacks off possibly then cast your spell, or if they instantly resolve you can than cast multiple spells potentially a turn.

 

If the game was designed from the ground up with AP in mind it could work, but CRPGS are the video game version of ttrpgs, a round in dnd is 6 seconds you have some basis for this, if you add AP to the game it'll be much harder to impliment and has much worse problems for this game type imo.

 

Now if they increase weapon damage / give martial classes more attacks (they should) you'll find going first to be really good, just right now martial classes don't have the proper cc / damage to make it matter to much imo.