brindle88
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Posts posted by brindle88
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Is the Durgan thing intended or a bug as far as you know?
Great question. I assumed from the get-go that it was intended, but for all I know it might as well be a bug.
I'll raise it shortly so QA can have a look.
EDIT: ICYMI
I don't reckon that would be a bug, converting 50+ % of your hits to crits would fit into the pillars op phenomenon. I think they would have done this intentionally
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I don't get all the hate for Barbarians.
Sure – as a solo character they're going to be complete junk. That's a given. You really need to be defensively orientated in some way to solo or have a lot of hard CC/be able to deal damage from a distance.
But that's like saying forks are bad/underpowered because it's hard to eat soup with them.
If you give a high might/high intellect Barbarian Tidefall and Accuracy Bracers and if they have a reasonable amount of resolve (<10) or concentration buffs you will be able to throw them in to a group of enemies and watch as chunks start appearing everywhere. The Barbarian will be able to take aggro from maybe 3-4 enemies themselves because of the rate of Endurance Drain – if they hit six or seven enemies for an average of 35-50 a hit they'll be healing themselves for like 50 Endurance each swing and potentially interrupting as well depending on what build you go for. They will, of course, be susceptible to CC but realistically unless you've got an uber-tank in the party everyone else probably will too!
The key thing that can't really be put in to numbers is the fact that they can do this consistently and without much micromanagement whereas with spell based AOE classes you're going to be eating in to your spells-per-day. The value of a damage focused Barbarian is going to be increased even further with the nerf to per-encounter spells that is coming shortly.
I'll agree with two things though:
(a) If you're a big rester/not playing on POTD/don't care about micro you're probably just better off taking a spell-based AOE class.
(b) With the introduction of additional immunities in to the game – prone of which is the most common – the AOE Affliction Barbarian build needs a rethink. I don't know how many immunities have been introduced to stun but Star Caller/the unique Dozens spear are an option I guess then.
Yeah of course, as you have clarified, you can give your barb a weapon and he may or may not die when he enters melee combat. The point we are making is that they are overall probably the weakest class and you have stated the AOE affliction build needs a rethink after the latest patch, man seriously it never worked in the first place on POTD, even before the patch. The accuracy was to low and the enemies deflection was to high to crit and land these afflictions.
As I have said before, on POTD, even with my rogue maxed to the absolute max with the highest accuracy with reckless assault I could not consistently land crits often enough to apply these afflictions with those weapons to one single enemy that was half a challenge to kill that often. To say the barb could do this with its inferior accuracy and further reduced with the carnage is complete BS.
I no I tested it.
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The discussion regarding the Barbarian in this thread got me curious, and I decided to test the class myself.Before someone proudly declares that they didn't read anything because it was too long, and not because they are too lazy to read a meaningful post, I'll summarize: I agree with brindle88. The Barbarian is a very handicapped class currently. Now that that's out of the way, to present my arguments.How I do class testing is, I start a solo game on PotD. I think soloing the first chapter of the game gives you the best idea about a class' performance.Advantages:
- The lack of party members allows you to have the most consistency when testing the character's combat performance. When you win, you win thanks to your abilities.
- Playing on PotD ensures that every tenth of a second, and every percentage point count. You have very little room for mistakes.
- By necessity, you get to become really good with that class.
- You often have to threorize and experiment with a few different builds with the same class.
- As a side effect to lots of game loading, you learn and test out the game's systems.
- As a side effect, you can confirm if soloing is possible with this class.
- Random Number Generation becomes disproportionately important. That's because if, with a party of 4 or 5, you may on average score 2-3 bad rolls, but will still do useful things thanks to a couple of characters' good rolls, when you have a party of just one, almost every roll has to be a good roll, even when you are faced with just one enemy.
- You don't get a chance to test out talent synergies between classes. Not that anyone has ever made attempts to test synergies between classes anyway, at least to the best of my knowledge. Yet as a result, a class that only shines when in a party, might make a bad impression when soloing. This again touches on the question if some classes experience a big jump in performance when in a party, compared to when playing solo, and if yes, which combinations of classes are the optimal ones.
- It has the most endurance, and is the class with the biggest health-to-endurance multiplier.
- It shares the second-worst deflection with the Rogue. The worst deflection, on paper, is the Wizard's, but it can be augmented very effectively in a number of ways by the wizard himself. So much so that if I have just a Barbarian and a Wizard in the party, it would be optimal to use the Wizard as the tank.
- That being said, we can say that the Barbarian and the Rogue share the worst Deflection among the font-line classes (if the Rogue is used on the front line).
- Accuracy-wise, the Barbarian resides in a second tier of classes, along with the Chanter, Cipher and Paladin, with the caveat that all these classes while being equal to the Barbarian class in base Accuracy, surpass it in Deflection - 25, 20 and 20 respectively, vs the Barbarian's lousy 15 base Deflection.
- 46-55 Accuracy (plus a flat 1 point of Accuracy for each point you increase Perception above 10)
- 36-45 Deflection (plus a flat 1 point of Deflection for each point you increase Resolve above 10)
- 160-208 Endurance (plus 5% for each point you increase Constitution above 10)
Gairnulf
If you have solod POTD with multiple characters, in your option, what is the most over powered build post patch 2.03 (now)?
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Carnage isn't even a good ability- it just has the potential to be.
Sneak Attack, and Ancient Memory are good, because they don't require stat investment to perform. Constant Recovery is good, because it helps the class fulfill it's role.
Carnage costs stat points to deal damage everywhere except where you want it, and utterly flatlines against most of the difficult, high DR fights.
not even the high DR fights, I think it flatlines on the low DR Fights
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5% Per point of CON, not 3.
But quality post all the same, Gairnulf. Gets into some of the longwinded explanations at the heart of that class's sorry state.
Me, I'm more concerned about Barbarian PCs, and adding them to a full party than Solo play- and I'm still not seeing them as worthy investments.
One of my bigger issues is that an intellectual barbarian with poor determination, as the game mechanics encourage you to make, is absurd.
To model a base, primal state like berserking or frenzy with mere cunning and reasoning is ignorant of the very appeal of the class!
The barbs 2 strong points :
1. The large health pool
2. The carnage ability
The barbs weak points:
1. Just about every possible thing that is relevant in this game apart from the above
The 2 strong points I found weren't relevant anyway as I didn't have enough stats to allocate to leave my constitution high because I needed those stats elsewhere because the barb is a melee character and intelligence is also important for the barb.
Carnage will apply secondary minimal damage at a reduced accuracy, but that's about it. You can't apply afflictions to mobs with affliction applying weapons on POTD consistently enough with carnage to make that build relevant, and if you did, you would basically need your entire party built around buffing the barb to make it even half viable. I would rather have my casters doing damage and stunning/ petrifying not babysitting at useless class
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I think Carnage reduces Deflection, and not Accuracy, contrary to what the wiki says. I can't start the game right now to check though.
the primary target will hit with full accuracy but every other target affected by the carnage ability will be hit with -10 accuracy
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The discussion regarding the Barbarian in this thread got me curious, and I decided to test the class myself.
Before someone proudly declares that they didn't read anything because it was too long, and not because they are too lazy to read a meaningful post, I'll summarize: I agree with brindle88. The Barbarian is a very handicapped class currently. Now that that's out of the way, to present my arguments.
How I do class testing is, I start a solo game on PotD. I think soloing the first chapter of the game gives you the best idea about a class' performance.
Advantages:
- The lack of party members allows you to have the most consistency when testing the character's combat performance. When you win, you win thanks to your abilities.
- Playing on PotD ensures that every tenth of a second, and every percentage point count. You have very little room for mistakes.
- By necessity, you get to become really good with that class.
- You often have to threorize and experiment with a few different builds with the same class.
- As a side effect to lots of game loading, you learn and test out the game's systems.
- As a side effect, you can confirm if soloing is possible with this class.
Disadvantages:
- Random Number Generation becomes disproportionately important. That's because if, with a party of 4 or 5, you may on average score 2-3 bad rolls, but will still do useful things thanks to a couple of characters' good rolls, when you have a party of just one, almost every roll has to be a good roll, even when you are faced with just one enemy.
- You don't get a chance to test out talent synergies between classes. Not that anyone has ever made attempts to test synergies between classes anyway, at least to the best of my knowledge. Yet as a result, a class that only shines when in a party, might make a bad impression when soloing. This again touches on the question if some classes experience a big jump in performance when in a party, compared to when playing solo, and if yes, which combinations of classes are the optimal ones.
You can consider each of the eleven classes as a subclass of one of two great classes - a Fighter or a Caster. The existence of many active and modal abilities makes the difference between the two great classes a bit blurry, but still, it's fairly obvious after you look at a class' class talents and abilities, if it's expected to shed blood/endurance on the front line, or to boost allies/nerf enemies from the back line.
Another typologization could be done concurrently to the first one, by the classes' base Deflection, Accuracy, and Endurance values. Combined with the set of abilities/talents/spells, they should give us a good idea of what is expected of a given character class.
Given this information, and using these metrics, what is expected of the Barbarian class?
- It has the most endurance, and is the class with the biggest health-to-endurance multiplier.
- It shares the second-worst deflection with the Rogue. The worst deflection, on paper, is the Wizard's, but it can be augmented very effectively in a number of ways by the wizard himself. So much so that if I have just a Barbarian and a Wizard in the party, it would be optimal to use the Wizard as the tank.
- That being said, we can say that the Barbarian and the Rogue share the worst Deflection among the font-line classes (if the Rogue is used on the front line).
- Accuracy-wise, the Barbarian resides in a second tier of classes, along with the Chanter, Cipher and Paladin, with the caveat that all these classes while being equal to the Barbarian class in base Accuracy, surpass it in Deflection - 25, 20 and 20 respectively, vs the Barbarian's lousy 15 base Deflection.
A final note on Accuracy/Deflection/Endurance. You should know that if you strive to complete all or most of the side quests and tasks, your character will spend the majority of the game somewhere around levels 8-11, which for a Barbarian means unmodified values of:
- 46-55 Accuracy (plus a flat 1 point of Accuracy for each point you increase Perception above 10)
- 36-45 Deflection (plus a flat 1 point of Deflection for each point you increase Resolve above 10)
- 160-208 Endurance (plus 3% for each point you increase Constitution above 10)
So, it's abysmal Deflection, mediocre Accuracy and a large health pool, which together with the class' abilities will try to compensate for these disadvantages. How will it manage that?
Regarding talents, all of the Barbarian's talents/abilities imply that it has to be used on the front line, so the AoE centered around him affects as many enemies as possible.
Therefore, by the class' nature, the Barbarian will often be engaged by multiple enemies. Being engaged by multiple enemies (above your engagement limit) results in the "Flanked" status effect, which gives a character a penalty of -10 Deflection. In some circumstances this could reduce the Barbarian to 0 deflection (or even under 0 if that's possible), meaning that pretty much every attack is a hit and every other attack is a Critical Hit. Even with the barbarian's large health pool, he can't withstand this kind of beating while maintaining a good DPS - in other words - not unless you stack up his DR and as a result reduce his DPS, in order to keep him in combat longer.
Knowing these things, what are the player's optimal strategies when distributing Primary Attributes scores?
In version 2.03, the game suggests, of all things, Might and Constitution as strongly recommended and intelligence and and dexterity as recommended. I might be mistaken about those two, because I don't have the game open, but even if I am, it doesn't matter, because they look pretty wrong to me.
For a solo build, what you want to give your character when it's from a front-line class is Accuracy and Action Speed, with Deflection also being important for those classes that can't boost their deflection through abilities, spells, etc.
The reasoning is that when you are fighting multiple enemies, statistically, you are at a disadvantage, because for each time when you get a chance to score a hit, they will get more than one chance to score a hit at you. The way to mitigate this disadvantage is to increase the probability of your scoring a hit and the frequency with which you have a chance to score a hit, i.e. your DPS. Everything else takes a secondary place.
This makes the Barbarian a bad choice for a solo build due to its naturally bad deflection and mediocre accuracy. When it comes to probability for a hit in combat, the Barbarian's best option is to go with double hatchets vs enemies with low or no DR (Skuldr Whelps), substituting it for a two-handed weapon when fighting targets with high DR (Tenfrith's abductors for example).
However, even with maximized Accuracy and Deflection, the Barbarian is still no match for a simple Shade in the second level of the temple of Eothas, or for a group of three Xaurips, one of them a Champion (the encounter in Anslog Compass). With some degree of optimizing your path through Chapter I's areas, you may be able to raise enough money to buy the item in Gilded Vale that will let you summon an Animat. This might make it feasible to reach Caed Nua at level 5, but I'm having a hard time imagining the Battle in Caed Nua's main hall vs two Shades and 4 Phantoms (or were they 5).
The Barbarian fails vs Shades in the following way - he gets hit by the Shade with 74 Accuracy vs his 30-something - 40 deflection at most. The secondary effect of the attack - Dazed - also hits with 74 Accuracy vs his 40-ish Fortitude. From then on, the Shade needs a few more strikes to bring the Barbarian down, and it scores them without error, simply because the Barbarian's Deflection is too low. It may be possible to still get through this battle with Potion of Wizard's Double, but then the final battle before reaching the end of the quest would still be too difficult for the Barbarian.
I am currently soloing the game with a Wizard, lvl 6 right now. It's much easier to solo with a Wizard due to his CC capabilities, which provide for a multitude of approaches to combat vs many enemies at once (Bewildering Spectacle, Chill Fog, etc) plus the option to temporarily turn yourself into a high-DPS, high-Deflection fighter (Hardened Veil/Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff).
Spending points for the attributes which become necessary for a viable solo build leave the Barbarian crippled in his most important attributes - Intelligence and Might, which allow the class to take advantage of his Carnage talent. Even with these maxed out, the Barbarian needs yet more points, to compensate for his lack of Deflection, either by pumping up Constitution or Resolve.
Trying to compensate for the lack of Deflection by betting it all on DR and pumping up DR through equipment would just sink your DPS. Then you'd have to put hope in your accuracy, to score fewer attacks but more consistent hits. That would have been an option for the Barbarian if it weren't also handicapped in its Accuracy.
This is why my conclusion is that the Barbarian sucks for a solo build.
Normally if a class fails as a soloing class, that means it's a weak class in my book, but I'll ponder a bit on its chances when part of a party.
I guess the Deflection deficiency will be less noticeable in a party, where the Barbarian can take advantage of the Fighter attracting all the enemies' attention, and of the Priest's buffs. Still, the Barbarian would remain vulnerable to AoE attacks and will more often than not succumb before the battle has ended.
The Wild Sprint talent also inclines me to think that the Barbarian would be more viable in a party than soloing.
However, with all this being said, I fail to grasp the point of the Barbarian as a class. If it's the Carnage ability, then that's in most cases no more significant than the effects of Chill Fog for example. If it's the afflictions he can cause on enemies, there are back-line caster classes who can cause these afflictions (and more), with less risk to themselves. The Barbarian doesn't provide boosts to allies, so all this leaves him with the role of an AoE damage-dealer and afflictions dispenser, only with the disadvantage of being very exposed to enemy aggro. That's too few advantages against too many disadvantages.
Conclusion: unlike in the IE games, in PoE a big health bar can't compensate for an inadequate Armor Class. This means that a class that's betting on light armor, front-line attacks, and a large health pool, is doomed to feel inferior to classes with smaller health pools but rating higher in the PoE's equivalent of Armor Class.
P.S. I challenge anyone arguing for the Barbarian's viability to post their videos of how they solo all or parts of Chapter I.
Well you have taken that comparison to a whole new level.
My comparisons where based on a party of 5-6 playing POTD with 1 barb included in the party, I cannot possibly imagine playing a Barb solo on POTD. I wouldn't have attempted it because as I said in my analysis I was able to compare a late level barb to a late level fighter or rogue via hire mercanaieries and building them up to level 13. The comparisons where dismal at best for reasons I described in my detailed analysis.
Your post will be critised by the carnage lovers who think they can apply afflictions with the carnage ability (reduced 10 acc with carnage and a barbarian with a lower accuracy then fighters and rogues anyway) with affliction applying weapons eg prone, stun ect..................this may work on groups of xantrips but I cant make it work on much else.
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Yeah I just checked repulsing seal, and you are on to something, but it targets reflex, and the rogue has the highest reflex in the game and also due to maxing dex and perception will give another 36 reflex on top of that, so maybe hard for it to land on the rogue.
The rogues lowest defences are actually deflection and will, but Definately not reflex
Repulsing seal would seriously whoop classes that don't max dex and perc, very interesting, though almost all melee classes would max these two apart from barbs and monks
Rogues completely max dex and perc
Fighters don't quite max dex and perc but they pump them a bit
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Yeah I just checked repulsing seal, and you are on to something, but it targets reflex, and the rogue has the highest reflex in the game and also due to maxing dex and perception will give another 36 reflex on top of that, so maybe hard for it to land on the rogue.
The rogues lowest defences are actually deflection and will, but Definately not reflex
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The Moral of the Story: the class that can (a) get the initial hard CC off and (b) keep it up for as long as possible will probably win.
yeah and shadowing beyond puts a whole new spin on things because it is the only ability in the game that grants absolute immunity to everything,
im surprised the wizard doesn't have a similar spell
lengarths safeguard (the wizard contingency ) may save the wizard though................and the wizard may win.............hahaha
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That was only a rough calculation so give or take 10 deflection either way. I wasn't even including the max deflection you could get as a Wizard as well. You could have Max Resolve and Cautious Attack for another 14 deflection on what's already there (though the Rogue might be able to push their accuracy up a bit further then anyways with single handed style and a native +accuracy weapon). A Wizard can, for all intents and purposes, make himself completely unhittable by melee attacks. Even in the most favourable conditions to both parties with food included I'd still think the Rogue would need to roll more than a 70 not to miss, and even then he'd probably just graze. Meanwhile, the Wizard is spamming every single spell in his book at rapid speed thanks to deleterious alacrity.
A good workaround (back in the day) might have been for the Rogue to conjure the Firebrand Greatsword from the forgemaster's gloves which actually attacks reflex instead of deflection but this is no longer the case unfortunately.
If anyone was going to get the Wizard my money would probably be on a priest with Seal of Repulsion - which gets ridiculous accuracy the more mechanics you have. Maybe a Druid too with Returning Storm + Relentless Storm working together as well.
the blind affliction is vs reflex btw not deflection...............go have a look.............. and it can land on a graze...........ah maybe rogue will win.............
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Pretty sure the Wizard can easily make themselves more or less unhittable with Deflection buffs that last for much longer than a rogue can keep shadowing beyond up ...?
Wizard Base Deflection (10) + Bonus From Level 14 (14*3=42) + Resolve (Let's say +2), Sword and Shield Style with Superb Shield Little Saviour (about +30?) + Hardened Arcane Veil (+75)
= 10+42+2+30+75 = About 160. Let's say the Rogue is built for accuracy and has 95 Accuracy. 95 - 160 = -65. Even if the Rogue Rolls a 100 he'll graze and he'll have to roll more than 80 to not miss I think ..
Rogue: Shadowing Beyond
Wizard: Sword and Superb Small Shield > Arcane Veil (+75 Deflection) > Deleterious Alacrity Of Motion > Wait till Shadowing Beyond Runs Out > Spam CC > Concelhauts
Even if the Rogue got the drop on the Wizard he'd have to keep him Perma Hard-CCd to stop Arcane Veil from going off, which is actually probably doable. Then again, if the Wizard gets the drop on the Rogue it's curtains for him too!
yeah the rogue would have to find a way to counter the hardened veil
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I though it was crap to until I had a good look at it,
it afflicts blind on a hit and crit not just a crit, I think its overpowered
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Guys forget about the attack speed BS lets get back to topic.
Ive experimented again with what I think I the most overpowered build 1vs1 and im certain its Rogue.
I had a good look at the rogue vs fighter vs Jugg monk and wizard and I tested stuff (as much as I could)
I couldn't find a defense from any other class that beat this opening combination from the rogue
1. The Rogue opens straight away with shadowing beyond, this does 2 things grants the rogue IMMUNITY TO SPELLS FROM THE WIZARD and GUARANTEES THE ROGUE first strike in melee combat at either a sneak attack or backstab (50% or 100%)
2. This fist strike will be blinding strike, guys, go into the game, go have a look at what the blinding affliction does to someone: it reduces accuracy by 25 and deflection by 20.
The reduced 20 deflection should ensure that you will continue to land crits and deathblows.
Guys I cant beat this on another class combination. It is straight up guaranteed first hit and your blinded then you will be critted and death blowed until death.
Hands down winner
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I've run tests aplenty on speed and recovery.
Dexterity speeds up everything but it is not additive; it applies multiplicatively after all other bonuses have applied.
Everything in game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery time. Stuff that reduces the penalty while wearing armor, of course, only applies to armor recovery penalty. Armored Grace isn't going to do anything if you're wearing clothes with 0% recovery penalty. That said, I'm not sure what you mean with the two recovery times blatherskite. Plate armor makes your recovery 50% slower; with Armored Grace, it makes it 30% slower instead.
Speed bonuses from Durgan Steel stack with everything, and so does the weapon Speed enchantment. Other attack speed bonuses from spells, potions, or abilities don't stack with each other.
The values in the chart linked above are partly outdated. Two-handers have a 50-frame recovery time on a naked character with 10 DEX (including the 4-frame delay that can never be affected or eliminated.)
EDIT:
if you look at the Bar chart sawyer posted, it clearly shows a recover time and then an armor recovery time, can someone please clarify in PLAIN ENGLISH if armored grace affects the ENTIRE RECOVEREY TIME or just the RECOVERY TIME THAT IS ADDED ON BY THE ARMOR.
You have stated in your above post that if you have the talent armored grace then this will not affect your recovery if you are wearing no armor. Though this may be so, but it may also be the case that if you are wearing armot the -20% from armored grace may EFFECT THE ENTIRE RECOVERY TIME.
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Baldurs Gate 1 was released Dec 1998
Baldurs Gate 2 was released Sep 2000
So maybe we might not be waiting to long for POE2, 18 months from now if where lucky..................
Keep in mind BG1 didn't have two expansions like POE1 has so I think it will be longer then 18 months.
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Eh, Ill throw the lowest tier coin at PoE 2 to support Obs but the game will just sit in my library having never been installed, just like the first.
Would you install if leaving it in your library uninstalled prompted your PC to need a save V BSOD DC 20?
hey mate we need help on anther thread in regards to attack speed, recovery speed,
can you give us a hand
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Everything in the game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery.
Fighters can achieve greater speed because Swift Strikes doesn't stack with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, whereas Armored Grace does.
Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty.
While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses.
patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho
-20% recovery from armored grace
-16% recovery from pilferer's grip
second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)
= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.
gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.
Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.
dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.
PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.
Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.
You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3
Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.
The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)
Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else
Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)
hey man im almost certain that that sawyer stated dexterity only affects action speed not recovery speed, scour the forums for it you will find it, just google the appropriate words and obsidian forum
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The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else
Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,
1. Normal recovery time
2. Armour recovery time
So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs
I don't see the contradiction if 1 sec attack from 2 hander then you get 2 sec normal recovery and on top of that 50% penalty from armor meaning 0.5 * 2(Normal) = 1 sec recovery penalty from armor, with the ability instead you get 30% penalty due to armor leading to a 0.6 sec recovery penalty due to armor instead of 1 sec. The way I see it from the chart is that armor recovery penalty is applied based on normal recovery.
do you agree there are 2 types of recovery, normal recover and then armour recovery and armoured grace will only affect the armour recovery?
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The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else
Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,
1. Normal recovery time
2. Armour recovery time
So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs
If this is correct then armoured grace is severely less powerful then I thought, if this is incorrect armoured grace is probably the most powerful talent in the game
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The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else
Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,
1. Normal recovery time
2. Armour recovery time
So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs
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patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho
-20% recovery from armored grace
-16% recovery from pilferer's grip
second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)
= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.
gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.
Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.
dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.
PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.
Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.
You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3
Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.
The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)
Ahhh I see, the armoured grace will only effect the recovery time that is extended by wearing the armour, not the entire recovery speed, that's frickin BS, thats also why they must have buffed it up to 20% in patch 2.03
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patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho
-20% recovery from armored grace
-16% recovery from pilferer's grip
second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)
= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.
gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.
Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.
dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.
PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.
Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.
You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3
Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.
The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)
Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else
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well, we know attacks consist of two phases, melee attacks i mean: attack phase, which can ONLY be sped up by the DEX bonus, and the recovery phase (the yellow bar) which is the part affected by the recovery penalty on armors and such. a fighter can pick the armored grace ability for -20% recovery time, and this is substracted directly from the recovery penalty on whatever armor they're wearing. if you add the pilferer's grip item then it's an extra -16% on the armor's recovery time penalty.
a fighter wearing full plate for example, which has -50% recovery time penalty would then have -24% penalty instead, or in other terms have the same recovery as someone wearing Hide Armor (the one right before leather armor), but have 12 DR instead of 5 DR.
now we take into account DEX bonus, which speeds up both phases, the attack AND the recovery, and it literally makes the fighter the fastest unit at the moment. you can give him full plate and have him be faster than someone wearing a robe, for example, give or take 5%, or give him a hide armor and have him attack at the same speed as someone NAKED.
when we take guns into account they have 3 phases, attack/recovery/reload, and their longest phase is by far the reload one which is only affected by DEX, same as the attack phase. bows on the other hand don't have a reload phase.
in any case, you're right of course rogue will out-damage this speedy fighter on crits, but the fighter will be EXACTLY %50 tankier (rogue base deflection is 15, fighter's new base deflection is 30), with equal Accuracy as the rogue, 25% more base endurance and 50% more base health and with access to two ability picks that give total of +25% dmg (weapon spec and weapon mastery). sure, not as crazy as the +55% the rogue's class abilities tack on but hey, still good!
obv. not mentioning the +20% from savage attack or the vulnerable attack since those two talents are universal. he'll crit less, as well, but will hit more often, and be even further tankier thanks to critical defense, unbending and unbroken. remember he can instant-cast +15 ACC for base duration of 15 seconds per-encounter too.
dual-wielding carries the least recovery out of all melee setups, being a base 20 frame of attack and 20 frame of recovery if using two fast weapons, and 30 attack / 30 recovery frames if using two average speed weapons. this means the armored grace + pilferer's grip fighter with 18-20 DEX dual-wielding Scimitars will out-DPS the Rogue on HITS, guaranteed, due to being faster overall than the rogue, so even if the rogue has more +DMG modifiers it'll even out, UNLESS the rogue starts critting. The rogue crits will put him ahead in the damage-per-swing race then. It all depends on the roll of the dice, then, since both have comparable ACC.
footnote: enemy immunities will put a legitimate dent in the rogue's reliance on sneak-attacks by the way, which is why i'm not taking into account the huge sneak attack dmg modifier when talking about this. a lot of mob types now are immune to blindness, hobbling, weakening, poison and sickening. watch the video posted in the 2.03 patch news announcement thread.
basically any mob that doesn't have eyes can't be blinded, any mob that doesn't have a biological system is immune to sickening/weakening, any mob that doesn't need to rely on their legs or floats can't be knocked prone, and any mob that doesn't have either corporeal form or is generally bipedal in nature is immune to almost everything; also enemy types that lack things such as a brain, for example a primordial ooze, or a dank spore, can't be charmed or confused, so on and so forth. the immunities are actually fairly logical IMHO, although the guy in the video is whining non stop about them.
flanking will still enable rogues to out-DPS anything of course, but this means rogues will require even more micro than before to guarantee sneak attacks, or relying on ciphers flanking spell. i dislike too much micro but that's personal state.
I agree with a lot of what has been written here, it basically comes down to:
1. A fighter with armoured grace and all the weapon specialisations with superior tankiness
Vs
2. A rogue with sneak attacks, afflictions, critical hits and deathblows.........who will have a significant lower deflection
It's a pretty close call, I mean there would be a lot of luck involved in this match up, but also remember the rogue has shadowing beyond (invisibility), this will give the rogue guaranteed first hit and if the rogue crits a blinding strike on that first hit the rogue will probably win.
But then also remember the fighter has the talent unbroken, which is basically a self resurrect. Will the rogue be able to down it a second time?
It's very close.
Most overpowered builds post patch 2.02
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
We are saying barbs are inferior to all other melee classes, including paladins.
Of course you can give the barb the weapon and he can attack stuff.